[Closed] any opinions on living with kids in Johannesburg? (and if there is any mtb'ing!)

I know nothing about the place but I guess it'd be one of those places where you'd have to live within a secure compound, kids couldn't roam as free range as they'd be used to, you'd probably get to own a gun and your whole idea of security would need a radical upgrade. Be great for the contrast though.

ive been south Africa a few times now staying for a few month and my parents have a place out there,
i think its a great place although it is in cape town not jo burg. I hate when people talk about getting kidnapped and stuff out there as in reality i felt much safer over there than i do walking around in manchester at night!!!!
obviously if you go marching in the slums at night you are asking for trouble!
if you would feel safer the estates you can live on can come with 24hr security but ours doesn't, we rent it out around the year, never had any breakins or even problems. The "blacks" and "colours" are really friendly over there as well

If i had the chance i would would jump at it, take your bike over there as there is some truly beautiful places over there, remember there is plenty of coast line, and give surfing a try, i was scepticle but its a awesome sport

It could be the perfect excuse for a fat bike?!

I've no direct personal experience of SA however I worked with a SA girl who categorically said she knew (personally) people who had been raped or murdered - after I'd asked her if it really was as dangerous as the press makes out.

I live in Manchester- within 0.3-1mile of my house there have been 3 gun deaths within the past 3 years. I feel very safe thanks. Those gun deaths were crims on crims not a crim jacking, attacking or raping a member of the public. A huge difference.

You know how every aussie you meet, has a story about their mate, cousin etc, and a shark.
I find south africans are like about car jackings.

although it is in cape town not jo burg

Security-wise, there's a big difference, isn't there? Cape Town is usually considered a lower-risk destination than Johannesburg?

Unless you can afford to live in the secure suburbs of Johannesburg - somewhere like Sandton - I'd think twice before moving my family out there. Especially after experiencing Switzerland.

Cape Town is a totally different place to Joburg.

Basically, very bad traffic with long commutes. Gated communities are the preferred way of life. Your perception of security and what is going on around you needs to be completely different where you look at everyone as a possible criminal. There is also massive inequality in society so it is quite a difficult place to live in.

Oh, and cycling has exploded over there. There are a lot of races (every weekend) all over the place, and a lot of farms have made tracks to cater for the boom.
Most of the riding will be in more secure locations so can cost, or in larger groups due to security. There have been reports of an increase in crime against cyclists due to the value of their bikes.
I would never ride on the road there due to the terrible driving.

We have an office out there are every single employee has been assaulted, robbed, car jacked and/or robbed. They all live in nice secure compounds as well, they either get into the compound or get you on the way in / out.

It is not a place for taking children. One of our Female sales reps came home (to her secure house) to find a bunch or robbers had got in and were holding her husband and children hostage. They put a gun to her 6 year olds head and demanded she open the safe. They got in by threatening the family of her maid who let them in as they said they'd kill her children if she didn't.

One of our field guys, who since emigrated to Oz, had a neighbour robbed. For good measure they chopped both hands off the daughter of the house and left her.

I could go on, we've had an office there for 10 years and the list is endless.

One of our customers there is a keen MTBer, he says they have to be very careful as the locals chase them on dirt bikes with semi-automatics, hold up the entire group. Phone for a pickup to take the bikes, phones, wallets, shoes & clothing and then leave the naked 20 miles for a trail head.

I've been three times for a week at a time and stayed at the Hyatt. I didn't have any trouble at all but I did take precautions. I was working on main street so I had the car service take us in daily to the site with armed security everywhere, but it's kinda the norm.

My colleague didn't follow any advice and was robbed within 90mins of landing.

I couldn't comment on what it's like to live there but it's not on my list of places to ever visit again to be honest. I don't profess to have really experienced the place. There's bits of it that are pleasant to look at but I think the locals live further out than I was.

One thing that was said by all though, was that Cape Town was completely different, a lovely place i'm told.

I have no direct experience to offer, but the people from my work who have been out to our office there for either short or extended stays have not much (ie nothing) good to say about the place.

Cape town is ace, Joburg, what footflaps said.

Having said that, one of my mums friends is from joborg and was terrified of coming over to live in London. All she had heard about London was of killings, mugging etc via the news.

However i've been to cape town and joborg.

I had family which lived just outside Jo'burg, huge gates razor wire round the garden, bars over the doors and windows. My uncle had been mugged a knife point, they knew people how have been killed and plenty car jacked and mugged. The kids never went anywhere on foot always in the car to from school or any other activity's

They moved back here a few years back when a business deal went wrong and wiped them out, no benefits\help over there and they were finding in impossible to get work. They've always made it very clear they hate it here and would love to go back, which I really struggle to understand considering above.

tbh we wish they'd go back too 😈
they're on their feet now but are very bitter about everything so we we rarely speak any more.

Cape Town though as other have said is a completely different game, it'd be on my list to visit again or even move to possibly. Jo'berg no chance imho

[edit] after they moved back they were paranoid about everything for ages, kids barely allowed out of the house (18 and 15 ish at the time) mental! [/edit]

in reality i felt much safer over there than i do walking around in manchester at night!!!!

Grew up in Glasgow and went to a few silly places in my youth, (including Manchester 🙂 ), but I've never had my Spidey-sense tingle more than when we got lost in Jo'burg and ended up driving through a few "wrong" neighbourhoods.

We'd taken reasonable precautions (rented small crap car, removed the rental stickers, all bags hidden in boot or under seats, doors locked, reading the map in the footwell) but I don't mind saying that I was bricking it.

Jo'burg will be the polar oppisite of CH. I lived in Zurich for 8 years - great country-side, very safe, high std of living, but the people are weird

Jo'Burg, I have done 5 trips - around 6 weeks in total. As everyone says Cape Town (and Port Elisabeth) are very different. TBH, I have never found Jo'Burg that bad - but I wouldn't move there from CH ( and CH salary and tax benefits)with kids. If you were adventerous, or in a dull job, it might be worth a punt. But I wouldn't inflict it on my offspring.
But Jo'burg is a bit of a shithole, with terrible traffic, and very big divisions between the haves and have nots. If you can ignore that, it could be a stepping stone for a few years.
My friends out there (who are Brits) still love it. Their son, who has been there since he was 8, wouldn't want to live anywhere else ... It is a fanatastic , outdoorsy lifestyle.

Not been myself but was told a story yesterday by my missus who is a fashion stylist
A photographer she works with got back from Cape Town with a broken leg, yesterday she found out how
It happened...
Said photog and his assistant went out on the pop and on the way home got in a taxi only to find out it wasn't a taxi and were then robbed at gun point by a hidden passenger. There were essentially kidnapped and told there were being driven out to a shanty town. Earlier in the day they'd heard of a new gang initiation where they kidnap tourists and shoot them. They bailed out of the 'taxi' at speed and got away with a few broken bones. F@ck that sh!t!

I can only reinforce much of what has been said. I have worked in Johannesburg for short periods and enjoyed working there. You don't die as soon as you walk outside a fenced compound contrary to some reports. However there is no way I would move there. Everyone I worked with had been robbed or mugged at some point, a couple quite brutally. It's the only country I can think of where they have road signs to warn of hijack risk.

Our office had a hotel about half a mile away and I did used to walk to work along the main road until my colleagues found out and insisted they picked me up everyday. They were quite surprised I'd made it every day for a week without being robbed....

we got lost in Jo'burg and ended up driving through a few "wrong" neighbourhoods.

Were you using Apple's maps Graham? 😀

I was happy to walk around so long as I had nothing of value, wouldn't have carried a laptop bag or anything though. Local staff thought it was stupid though, life in Johannesburg consisted of driving from one fenced compound to another. Shopping centre, office, hotel all surrounded by high fences gates and security. Not how I'd want to live.

if you like to Braai (BBQ) in a nice estate and get fat, its the place for you.

You really want to be looking at Cape Town, southern Suburbs, helderberg etc if you want a semi safe, mtbing lifestyle...a more sedate way of life than what is on offer in Joburg - everything is faster there and the people are different.

So i'm told.

Thanks all, but can you tell me how you [i]really[/i] feel? 😯

So, basically, a complete hell hole then? Lovely. 😆

Footflaps, you build an awesome shed, and your opinions on this are clear.

Yes, the switch from CH would be quite formidable. Here, the peeps can be a bit local town for local people, but the quality of life is staggeringly high, as is the eye watering cost of everything.

But, we want an adventure. Maybe this is not it? I stated in my file I will not go anywhere with significant security threats, and company are playing that side down, and compared to places like Venezuela, Nigeria etc that is certainly true.

Nothing final, the offer will probably not really materialize, but good to be forewarned!

BTW, mate who has just come back from there states that mtb'ing is massive, although if I get worried riding a nice mtb when I am back in the rougher parts of scotland, can't imagine I'll feel any safer in SA!

Cheers all, I'll let you know how it progresses. Any other insights or views, keep them coming.
Kev

Go if you can afford or are willig to -

* Live in a world where you have to be mentally capable of dealing with violence.
* Live in a secure compound
* Keep schutzhunds as pets
* Kill someone with 12 gauge shotty/9mm
* Own an armored car
* Take out kidnapping insurance
* Teach your children and wife how to defend themselves.
* Deal with your wife leaving you if one of your kids gets slotted in a car jacking.

Got a few mates from SA who ****ing hate the place. Their stories make American hoodies sound quaint.

A place for family? Ya ... hmmmm ... 🙄

Are your family members trained in zombie shooting with Benelli M4 or Glock 29? If yes go for the adventure of a life time. i.e. zombie safari shooting. If no then prepare for media headline.

Go to Ozland instead as Jaws will at least leave you alone on land.

It's only a job... stay put or move to NZ or Canada if you want somewhere adventurous rather than being constantly worried and paranoid for the safety of your wife and children.

I was first introduced to the firing range, 9mm pistols and dumb dumb bullets there - basic office issue if you do field work. The cross head bullets (dumb dumbs) are essential in case you don't hit them in a vital organ with the first shot, hopefully the severe soft tissue damage will cause them to bleed to death quickly.

That is of course if they don't shoot you before you spot them coming....

I've spent many weeks working in Johannesburg, driving around and visiting customers in some quite rough areas. As with any of these risky places it's all about being in the wrong place at the wrong time, luckily I haven't and I've always had a great trip. Undoubtedly there's a lot of paranoia but there is also potential for things to go badly wrong.

I think it would be an exciting and interesting posting; for only two years I would go if the money was good. And the traffic isn't as bad as it was before the World Cup; the roads are pretty good and improvements are happening. Probably 95% of the bad stuff is black on black violence, especially now that some blacks are beginning to acquire some wealth. The upside is one of the best climates in the world and some superb mountain biking, hiking and game viewing.

Big Scot - one comment from me.

I did 8 years in CH. Many people really love it - I did for the first 4 years ( then came back to the UK for 2 years), the second 4 years were harder - mainly due to the pound falling against the CHF ( and me getting paid in GBP)

But the place changed - the locals became more arrogant ( quite difficult but they had !), all the SVP nonsense was joked about at work - but someone was voting for them...

For wifey's sanity we got out - moved back to the UK,

I miss some things - the mountains and the great passes to ride on a motorbike, but I don't miss getting ripped off for everything, the fact that pizza and beer for two cost the best part of 100 quid ... or the locals.

Change locations - but maybe not RSA!

b_s_n - I'm living in Jo'burg at the moment. I enjoy it but don't have young kids and have lived in similar places before (Sao Paulo for 3 years) so the security situation hasn't fazed me (yet). I only got the chance to go because a colleague's wife didn't take to it. They had young kids.
There's a pretty active mtb scene (although I've yet to get into it). You're welcome to get in touch if you want to know more.

I've only done road riding in SA (very early weekend club runs and Cape Argus three times) but I suspect you might find the mountain biking a bit different to the UK. It looks to consist of miles of dusty trails rather than steep necky stuff like you'd find in the UK.

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[/url] place is near Pretoria, around 40 mins drive from Jo'burg on a Sunday morning. fun to blat around for 2 or 3 hours, in amongst the antelope etc :). Loads of big rides further afield.

I have never been, but judging by some South Africans we met on a trip recently, it sounds an utter hell-hole. Maybe tolerable if you like living in a prison.

I have to say they were not the most considerate, thoughtful or polite of people either, but obviously two people do not a whole country make.

From reading the above. Is earning a little extra $$ really worth the risk? I'd rather my son/partner was back in Blighty if I was working in any high risk area. (No offence meant guys).

Really not THAT bad! Yes there's some bad stuff goes on, but then there was when I lived in Streatham in S London some years ago! There's a helluva lot that is good about the place......

I have been To Johannesburg and neigbouring Pretoria. Have travelled to South Africa about 20 times studied around Cape Town in 2003 2004 and Worked in Durban in 2010 2011. Have many friends there love the country love the livestyle. Would hesitate to move there(country) with kids, would not wan't to live in Joburg with wife and kids. Joburg is dangerous its the rape capital of the world as said get used to hig fences barbed wire, bars in front of windows, caarying pepper spray on rides. Have woken up with a knife against my throat and been attacked on my bike several times in the safer western cape.

Though its a lovely holiday destination, the have an active ride scene and beautiful overwelming scenery in many places. Must book a ticket for another visit still have a spare bike somewhere down there. www.thehubsa.co.za for cycling info road is keen MTB wonderfull. Though inform yourself where you ride some are's are no go others only in a group. I have been asked to hang back and wait for some ladies in a race as they ran out of armed escorts for part of a mtb route.

To put it in perspective I have been the most scared in my life in Johannesburg. I currently live in Rio De Janeiro and cycle along the edges of the Favel'as I have worked in one of the most dodgy streets in durban, Lived in Mozambique lived and worked in Helhole Luanda Angola, worked in Angolan bush but only in Johannesburg I am afraid of my own shadow. So No I wouldn't especially if you are used to Switserland. Especially as the country is becoming more unstable with farm and mining strikes(some of my mates had part of their farm burnt down and flew the family out with the chopper that brought the mercenaries in). Also Mandela's health is faltering its a big worry as his death is expected to be the spark to ignite quite a bit more violence.

as above. Joburg is a hellhole and I wouldnt move back there for a gold pig.

Sorry another doom story;

I shared a house at Uni with a lad from Jo’burg, me and the girlfriend went to visit one summer. The area they lived seemed safe enough but there were private security guards and regular police patrols (his dad was a policeman and it seemed as though most of the neighbours were).

One day the girlfriend and I went to see some of the sights and she got her bag snatched, I ran after the lad but lost him in the crowd, but found a police car. We explained what had happened and the officer said jump in and we’ll see if we can spot him. We drove along for a few mins when the girlfriend said that’s him. The cops jumped out and chased the kid down an alley and we heard gunshots. The cops came back and asked if the bag they took of the lad was ours, it wasn't they had shot the wrong kid, the cop said jump back in the car and we’ll carry on looking – we just got a taxi back to the house and left the next day. I wouldn’t want to live somewhere that life has so little value to the police, let alone the criminals.

This was ‘a few’ years ago though, so things may have changed.

Well looks like I'm a lone voice....... People have certainly had a rough time of it here - I'll bear it in mind and keep my guard up. As for the OP - couldn't recommend moving to SA given all that's been written above.

The cops jumped out and chased the kid down an alley and we heard gunshots. The cops came back and asked if the bag they took of the lad was ours, it wasn't they had shot the wrong kid

You know, although not frequent (or maybe frequently reported..) - this also happens with US Cops.

I usually resist wading into these types of discussions, but seriously, if you want to compare 3rd world with 1st world, don't be surprised by the content.

I'm a South African (Married an English rose). You cant beat SA for quality of life, but the standard of living is very different. Cape Town is indeed in a bubble compared to most other cities for a number of political and socioeconomic reasons.

You take the same precautions in SA that you would take in any other foreign country. Are the risks of being exposed to violence higher? Of course, but lets not throw proverbial baby out with the bathwater. There are horror stories in every area, in every country.

Go, make the most of it. Don't take the security issue for granted, but don't let it overshadow you experience of one of the most diverse and beautiful countries in the world.

You cant beat SA for quality of life

If you're rich and/or white, by the sound of it.

There are horror stories in every area, in every country.

Nothing like the volume or intensity you keep hearing about Joburg though!

If it makes you feel any better, I wouldn't move my family to a number of places, SA is just one.

Go, make the most of it. Don't take the security issue for granted, but don't let it overshadow you experience of one of the most diverse and beautiful countries in the world.

That would be my response if the question were about a short term placement.

RSA is a fantastic place to visit, I'd never have gone if it hadn't been for work but I'm going back for a holiday. I wouldn't move there permanently.

I read the local press from time to time and it seems the sheer violence involved in some of the crimes seems unique to SA. Women are routinely raped whilst husbands are forced to watch after robbers have broken in to their 'secure' homes. People leave the place in droves it seems. I can't understand anyone moving out there, especially with a family.

Wow,certainly a lot of bollocks been said there by many (not all !). I lived there for 20 years and is an amazing lifestyle, still go back for a good month every year and not happy when 'home time' comes round. 'Irelanst' who told story re shooting wrong guy, what a load of cr@p, that hasnt happended, is a nice entertaining myth that people tell all over the world and is just bad publicity. Granted JNB is (as nearest city to northern borders etc) does attract a mixed bunch, a lot are desperate hence some crime. Likely you would want to head to Durban or Cape Town anyway for mtb'ing where the hills are, I know of loads of it across there and is massive. Cycling too. As I say a great lifestyle, yeah you have to keep your wits about you, be able to afford somewhere fairly nice, not wonder into Hillbrow (ala Soho in London or many other parts of many other cities in UK) at midnight swinging a fat wallet, but the rewards are abundant ie. the sun and colourful surroundings ! Generally a great buzz ! Go for it, you only live once !! (no follow on gags please to that last remark ). Over the years have taken loads of UK pals back to SA for holiday and cant think of one that hasnt said was the best holiday they ever had, too many things to do (outdoors !) to list. 😀 😀

Flashsa what part of JNB did you live in?

Interesting reading this thread, I used to live there 40 years ago and still have family there.

So to summarise, everyone on this thread but two says dont go there.

Lived in Durban, cracking place, Drakensberg Mountains couple hrs away, endless biking (not dissimilar to Alps).

Trimix, to be fair most people with bad things to say about place have no first hand experience, their view is via 'stories, 'I heard it from a friend', 'someone told me about this guy' blah blah blah

Am not on commission for the SA tourist board by the way... 😀

I'm not a South Africa expert, I only spent 3-4 weeks there. I grew up and worked in dodgy and shitty places, so I think I have a higher tolerance for risk and discomfort than many. Based on my feelings about how heavy the towns got at sunset and from the stories I read in the press and by people I met, there is no way I would move to South Africa to live. I find the comparisons to Streatham and Soho ridiculous. (Everyone I met was nothing less than lovely to me - another difference to the UK).

I fully respect anyone who says that this is ignorant nonsense based on anecdotal twaddle.

Its worth going just to see people standing on the back of trucks, swigging beer on the way home from work on the motorways . . .

I travel to J'burg and Cape Town a lot. Love visiting both, especially CT, but would not move my family there (despite talks yesterday for such a move!). Crime is a real issue and that makes life challenging to say the least. Plus I find places like Sandton sterile even if they are relatively safe. Having said that the closest I have been to getting mugged in Africa was in Cape Town (near the waterfront!!) and Mombassa.

I have 2 south african friends, both from Joberg and both women.
1 was car jacked at her cousins and the other was robbed in her own home, left with a head injury and her husband made to watch the beating.
As a result, Joberg would not be on my list of places to move to....interesting it was the husband that was made to watch who insisted on leaving the country

I find the comparisons to Streatham and Soho ridiculous.

Depends on the experience in either..........

Apart from the terrible reputation for crime, I rode with a chap from SA and he said he prefered riding in the UK. Generally the temp in SA was way too hot for mountain biking. They used to do all their rides at the crack of dawn and finish by 8.00 am.

I'm not sure if the rumoured way that the locals think is a cure for AIDS is true or not.
I will spare you the details but its not nice.

Apart from the terrible reputation for crime, I rode with a chap from SA and he said he prefered riding in the UK. Generally the temp in SA was way too hot for mountain biking. They used to do all their rides at the crack of dawn and finish by 8.00 am.

I rode the Argus in cape town the other week from 8.00 am until 12.15 am and hardly broke sweat . . .

and in their winter it would be fine anytime of the day.

admittedly after 12pm it does warm up considerably in the summer

That's Cape Town though innit.

Programme on radio 5 in the next day or two talks to South African athletes and sportsmen and women about their experiences on day to day life in SA. Suffice to say from the trailer it seems most of them would concur with the general tone of this thread.

SA has it's own page on wikipedia about how bad violent crime, particularly rape, car jackings and murder are. If you look at the other statistically similar countries, half of them are war zones or places with little meaningful government. That alone would put me off going to live in one of the more violent cities in the country.

It's true that all cities have their dodgy areas, I know a guy grew up in an area of Durban called Westgate Gardens, made Syria sound tranquil!!!

Article from the beeb

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/21829741

It's true that all cities have their dodgy areas, I know a guy grew up in an area of Durban called Westgate Gardens, made Syria sound tranquil!!!