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Try running a printer or scanner or software from 2006 on a brand new Mac, pretty much guaranteed to not work.
I've run plenty of older hardware from all sorts of Macs (I have a USB floppy disc drive from around 2000, that still works on any current Mac). But aside from that; a lot of that older hardware is either shit compared to current stuff, or has broken anyway. Why would I want to use a 15 year old printer, when current printing technology is infinitely better? Whilst I agree that built in obsolescence is a bad thing, to try to use backwards compatibility as a way of trying to claim one platform is better, is just silly really. What ancient hardware/software are you trying to use? And anyway; you can always find an older, perfectly working Mac to run it, if you really need to.
Not really
No really.
But aside from that; a lot of that older hardware is either shit compared to current stuff, or has broken anyway. Why would I want to use a 15 year old printer, when current printing technology is infinitely better?
I'm not talking about cheap consumer stuff. This is expensive professional hardware and software that still functions perfectly well running Win10. No VMs needed.
This happens every time Mac fanbois do the "there is no benefit to running Windows", then when the benefits of running Windows are pointed out, it's "Yeah, but I don't want to do that anyway." Maybe you don't, but I need it to do my job.
On the longevity issue, as the finance industry says past performance is not indicative of future results. For example, I'm not expecting my 2 year old Intel iMac to last as long as it's predecessor, a 2007 iMac, because the focus for both Apple and application developers now will be on Apple Silicon. Similarly a whole swathe of PC's will be unable to run Windows 11, including the perfectly servicable 6 year old desktop I'm typing this on, because of some apparently arbitrary choices by Microsoft. Now's probably a good time to get into the electronics recycling business.
@thols that backwards compatibility comes at a cost. Did you know that Windows used to contain code to change the memory mode if SimCity was detected to be running? This was done as a workaround as MS were ( and probably still are) paranoid about anything not working. It's been to the detriment of the OS as a whole and the API is an absolute dogs dinner as a result.
What gets on my t1ts is the OP asked a simple question to those who use and advocate Macs. The thread title didn't ask the windoze experts to pitch in. but of course the usual suspects can't help themselves as they need self validation in the choice they chose to make.
I’m not talking about cheap consumer stuff. This is expensive professional hardware and software that still functions perfectly well running Win10. No VMs needed.
And what actual percentage of all computer users would that affect? 1? 0.5? 0.1? There are plenty of people using older hardware in say music recording studios etc, who are perfectly happy to use an old Mac that doesn't need updating. If it ain't broke... But the reality is, that the vast majority of computer users really don't need to worry about such things. And people need hardware that can cope with the increasing demands from the other devices they use; you won't find someone trying to do 4k+ video with a 2008 PC laptop. Likewise, someone who needs to create simulations for medical research, won't want an ancient, slow old machine, they need the very latest, fastest kit, and that often tends to be pretty exotic proprietary equipment anyway; they wouldn't want the instability of Windows messing things up. So whatever argument that can be made for backwards compatibility, there's always a counter argument as to why this isn't valid anyway. Bottom line is. The vast majority of us don't need all that anyway, we just want something to work without fuss and bother. Which is one of Apple's strengths; strip out all you don't need, and it's a much sleeker, slicker and more efficient experience.
Can you imagine a Mac thread left to its own without the windows zealots?
Thing is, there aren't any Windows zealots. There are just anti-Mac-Fanboi-bullshit people. No-one is saying Windows is better, we are just pointing out the stupid rubbish Mac fans spout. Like this:
There’s 2 types of people in this world; those who buy Macs, and those who regret not buying a Mac
That's what gets my goat. It's idiotic. Even if the poster wasn't serious plenty are.
Feel free to get a Mac if you want one. I have two. My personal preference is still Windows, for the OS and the choice of hardware, but whatever. They both work, there are pros and cons to both.
anti-Mac-Fanboi-bullshit people
Why do these people exist though? What service do they provide for humanity? Don't get me wrong, Mac fanboys can be annoying for sure - but 'anti-Mac-Fanboi-bullshit people' appear to be a subtype of humanity a further degree of separation away from any sensible decision making discussions and apparently exist only to cause conflict.
Thing is, there aren’t any Windows zealots. There are just anti-Mac-Fanboi-bullshit people. No-one is saying Windows is better, we are just pointing out the stupid rubbish Mac fans spout. Like this:
There’s 2 types of people in this world; those who buy Macs, and those who regret not buying a Mac
That’s what gets my goat. It’s idiotic. Even if the poster wasn’t serious plenty are.
Lol!
Sent from my expensive and superior Apple device.
but ‘anti-Mac-Fanboi-bullshit people’ appear to be a subtype of humanity a further degree of separation away from any sensible decision making discussions and apparently exist only to cause conflict.
I point out bullshit and idiocy wherever I see it. As I've said, I view both platforms as equivalent, I chose my laptop based on the size and spec available to me. I am happy for people to prefer whatever.
Mac fans though can be quite good at persuading people to perhaps spend more money than they can afford on a Mac or iPad because they think they need to.
Sent from my expensive and superior Apple device.
Android, actually.
TiRed
Free Member
Docker no use for this?Don’t think so – SAS supply the University Edition as a compiled virtual machine disk image
Parallels is M1 native. I've got it running the arm version of W10 and ubuntu. 16gb defo required for those though. And you might run into software issues. I've apps that just won't work on arm
And what actual percentage of all computer users would that affect?
I have no idea, but it affects me. I was responding to someone who was unaware of this advantage of Windows. It may not affect most users, but it's still an advantage.
that backwards compatibility comes at a cost.
Things always come at a cost. If you remove backwards compatibility for the sake of a sleeker OS, it comes at the cost of backwards compatibility. If you maximize backwards compatibility, you will get a more complex OS. For what I do, backwards compatibility is a massive benefit.
whatever argument that can be made for backwards compatibility, there’s always a counter argument as to why this isn’t valid anyway.
I have some expensive software and hardware that I can't afford to throw away and replace. Win10 has backwards compatibility that runs it perfectly. That's a valid argument. There is no counter argument that makes it invalid. Windows lets me get my job done. I couldn't do that with Mac OS.
Parallels is M1 native. I’ve got it running the arm version of W10 and ubuntu.
Thanks - looks promising. I'd only be going with 16GB. What I would really like is a 15" MacBook Air. I'm done with small screens now (HP laptop is 13" and really too small for my eyes), but like the light form factor. I use a stand (NEXTSTAND K7 or Roost), keyboard and mouse with 15". I use a 22" monitor with the 13" HP.
I have no idea, but it affects me
In the big scheme of things, how important do you think YOU are, individually, to a company like Apple? I totally get what you're saying, but you have to agree, Apple writing their OS for such individual use case scenarios, isn't practical for their particular business model. And what will you do if Windows 11 no longer supports your hard/software requirements?
Android, actually.
It was a jo.... never mind.
So are you running X86 Linux under parallels on an M1 Mac?
Good news if you are.
Nah it's an ARM version of Windows.
Mac fans though can be quite good at persuading people to perhaps spend more money than they can afford on a Mac or iPad because they think they need to.
? As a 'Mac Fan', I often advise people to buy a Mac, if they ask for my opinion on a new computer. As long as they don't want to spend just £300 or so. Sure; some might buy something that is way overkill for their actual needs, I think this is probably true for many people. But then many who have gone on and bought Macs have expressed positive feedback about their decisions. My wife uses a work-supplied PC, but has no desire to own her own computer, her 'phone is adequate for her needs. Were she to need something a bit bigger, an iPad would fit the bill perfectly. Of course there are cheaper options; there aren't any better ones though. The Apple products offer better value, ultimately, for many users. Because they tend to suit people's needs better, are simpler to use, offer a better user experience, and retain their value for longer.Yes; Apple do sell 'premium' products, but that's their business model. And people are free to make their own choices, surely?
And what will you do if Windows 11 no longer supports your hard/software requirements?
The PC I use to run the scanner and critical software isn't Win11 compatible. In the short term, I will have to keep running Win10 for that.
I'm reasonably confident that a new PC with Win11 will run it all. Will look at the next year once Win11 is established. If it won't run it, I'll have to just keep the old PC with Win10 to run that stuff. Not really a big change to now, that's really all that I use that machine for anyway, it's just that I'll have to disconnect it from the internet when security updates stop for Win10.
If it won’t run it, I’ll have to just keep the old PC with Win10 to run that stuff. Not really a big change to now, that’s really all that I use that machine for anyway
So how is that different to someone running an old Mac to use old hard/software?
So how is that different to someone running an old Mac to use old hard/software?
At this point, we don't know what Microsoft are doing with any certainty. My machines have old motherboards that don't support TPM2.0, which Microsoft say is required for Win11. However, nobody seems sure how strict MS will be about the hardware requirements (hard floor or soft floor?)
On the software front, as I understand it, new Macs will not run any 32 bit software, but I'm not up to date on that. I have 2012 Macbook Pro that I use to run Win10 in bootcamp, but that can't update to the latest MacOS so I haven't bothered following what Apple are doing.
Win11 will require a 64 bit processor, it will not install on a 32 bit processor. However, as far as I know, it will still support 32 bit apps. That suggests that my hardware and software will probably run under Win 11. Obviously, we need to wait to see what will actually run, but continuing to support 32 bit apps would be a massive advantage for backwards compatibility for Microsoft.
Yes; Apple do sell ‘premium’ products, but that’s their business model. And people are free to make their own choices, surely?
Yes, as said I've no problem with Apple making premium stuff (actually I kind of do but that's a separate discussion). What I have a problem with is people telling people like my parents that they NEED a Mac and Windows simply won't do. Well, it will, and it does. They would've found the grand or so required for a Mac if they'd let their (rich) friends talk them into it, but it would have required significant compromises elsewhere. Then they'd have had a harder time integrating their cheap Android phones to it, and their friends would have gone "oh you simply MUST get an iPhone for £600" and so on. As it happens, the £350 Windows laptop I helped them buy was fine until someone spilled a drink on it some 6 or 7 years after it was bought.
Of course there are cheaper options; there aren’t any better ones though.
Again this assumes people have the money. If you are on a budget, a £1000 Mac is absolutely not better than a £400 PC, especially if you are just surfing and writing the odd document etc.
Can you imagine a Mac thread left to its own without the windows zealots?
...
The thread title didn’t ask the windoze experts to pitch in. but of course the usual suspects can’t help themselves as they need self validation in the choice they chose to make.
Ah, irony. Have you ever seen a Windows thread? "My printer has stopped working" - "buy a Mac!" You should listen to yourselves.
Anyway, Molgrips has said mostly what I was going to say. I'm neither anti-Mac nor a Windows zealot, Apple make great kit and I couldn't care less what platform you choose to hang your hat on.
What I do care about is the spreading of propaganda and misinformation. The fruity fans routinely compare a £2,000 Mac to a £300 PC and go "look, the Mac is so much better!" Of course it is, you could replace the PC five or six times over for what the Mac cost. A £2,000 PC would grind a Mac into the dirt.
How are you getting on with Premiere Pro and After Effects?
I've no idea what point you're trying to make here? They aren't products I use but if I did I expect I'd get on with them just fine, thanks.
seosamh77
Full Member
@seosamh77So are you running X86 Linux under parallels on an M1 Mac?
Good news if you are.
Nah it’s an ARM version of Windows.
ARM verions of ubuntu I meant, 20.04 arm64 to be exact. To be honest I don't use ubuntu at all, I just stuck it in to have a look see how linux is these days.
I mean, if I was a zealot keen to rag on Apple then I'd be shining a light on you paying £200 for an 8GB upgrade. An 8GB DDR4 SODIMM is like £40, if you've only got one slot even then a single 16GB stick is twice that. "Non-upgradeable memory" and storage too I believe, on a machine costing north of four figures, you're having your pants pulled down.
But I'm not, so I won't.
especially if you are just surfing and writing the odd document etc.
That's a very good point actually. There's a "what laptop" thread like every other week and they're always the same, "for email, surfing the Internet, writing an occasional letter..." You can do what most people want to do on something that's little removed from an Etch-a-Sketch.
@seosamh77 Cheers for the info.
I just ordered a fully pimped out Dell XPS 17 with an 11th gen i9, RTX3060 GPU etc for work. Apple don't even do an 11th gen intel macbook as I guess they are transitioning to ARM. So I can't buy a macbook in the spec I wan't anymore.
(Windows 11 discussion probably deserves its own thread rather than derailing this one any further?)
you’re having your pants pulled down
Hehe. A lightening to 3.5mm adapter for iPhone is £9 - this is surprisingly reasonable (ok so Google gave them away for free with Pixel 2s but whatever). However the 1m long version with a plug on the end instead of a socket is £35. They're charging you £26 for 95cm of cable! Lololol
Have you ever considered it might be down to form factor? Slots take space, in thin form factors it can be more expensive to cut upgrade holes then leave solid, etc..
Anyway this is a Mac thread for us experts so go help out the Windows printer guy 😉
Isn't the RAM part of the M1 system-on-a-chip? I have no idea how much it costs Apple to add more memory to the SOC but the days of slotting in a DIMM are very much gone.
I honestly don't know what I would do for RAM with an M1. I strongly suspect 8Gb would be enough, for the same reason that iPhones seem to need a lot less RAM than Androids for the same performance. I'd probably still spend the extra to be safe but I certainly don't think everyone needs to.
(ok so Google gave them away for free with Pixel 2s but whatever)
Apple used to give them away with iPhones. I got one with my X, but I very rarely use it.
I was a zealot, then...[snip]
But I’m not, so I won’t.
But you did. So you are? 😛
Do I need to put a smiley after every post?! (-:
Isn’t the RAM part of the M1 system-on-a-chip?
Dunno actually, it's not an architecture I've really looked at yet. If it is then it wouldn't surprise me if the 8GB parts weren't failed 16GB parts with half of it switched off. I'll do some reading when I've got a slow evening.
Gosh, folk have strong feelings about operating systems don't they?
https://www.macworld.com/article/234843/m1-macs-memory-isnt-what-it-used-to-be.html
Like Intel chips with integrated graphics, the M1 chip includes a graphics processor, and system memory is shared by both processor cores and graphics cores. (And also, in the M1’s case, the cores that make up the Neural Engine.) But in shifting its terminology to describe a unified memory architecture, Apple’s trying to point out that the M1’s approach is a bit different.
The biggest difference is that in the M1, the memory is a part of the M1 architecture itself. There’s no memory slot or slots on the motherboard of an M1 Mac, nor is there an area where a memory chip has been permanently soldered on. Instead, the memory is integrated into the same package that contains the M1 itself.
i tell people like my parents to get macs so they when they go wrong, they take them back to the apple store rather than back to me.
It seems insane that Apple still fit only 8Gb of memory to their machines, but the reality is that for almost all tasks that people use them for memory is obviously not the choke point on performance any more - with an SSD swap-to-disk is quick enough.
I'm on a 2013 bottom of the range iMac (with a fusion drive - so not even a true SSD). It definitely used to be the case 20+ years ago that every operating system upgrade would require more memory and a 3 year old windows machine would be next to useless. That just doesn't seem to be the case any longer.
Bottom of the range Macs with standard spec will be good for many many years of use. As will, I guess, a decent windows machine. The difference is you can still buy a lot of shitty cheap windows hardware thats painful to use even when new.
What I have a problem with is people telling people like my parents that they NEED a Mac and Windows simply won’t do. Well, it will, and it does. They would’ve found the grand or so required for a Mac if they’d let their (rich) friends talk them into it, but it would have required significant compromises elsewhere. Then they’d have had a harder time integrating their cheap Android phones to it, and their friends would have gone “oh you simply MUST get an iPhone for £600” and so on. As it happens, the £350 Windows laptop I helped them buy was fine until someone spilled a drink on it some 6 or 7 years after it was bought.
Aren't they free to make their own decisions though? Nobody is forcing them to buy a Mac.
Again this assumes people have the money. If you are on a budget, a £1000 Mac is absolutely not better than a £400 PC, especially if you are just surfing and writing the odd document etc.
If you only have £400 to spend on a computer you buy a £400 computer. Simple really. If you have a £1000 to spend, you buy whatever suits your needs/you want to. Again, simple.
What I do care about is the spreading of propaganda and misinformation. The fruity fans routinely compare a £2,000 Mac to a £300 PC and go “look, the Mac is so much better!” Of course it is, you could replace the PC five or six times over for what the Mac cost.
Who is saying this? Where have they said it?
A £2,000 PC would grind a Mac into the dirt.
“Non-upgradeable memory” and storage too I believe, on a machine costing north of four figures, you’re having your pants pulled down.
Lol! Triggered, much? 😉
I’ve no idea what point you’re trying to make here? They aren’t products I use but if I did I expect I’d get on with them just fine, thanks.
You were banging on about how your 2008 laptop runs Windows 10 fine. I was making a point about using a 2008 laptop with demanding software such as Premiere Pro and After Effects.
But you obviously missed that.
Gosh, folk have strong feelings about operating systems don’t they?
Some do. But some of use use Macs, so we have happier, more fulfilling, more contended lives. We enjoy better health, are better looking, and are sexually superior. Which is why we flaunt our Apple logos at the üntermensch. 😀
Gosh, folk have strong feelings about operating systems don’t they?
No, I'm trying to say that I don't. What I do have strong feelings about is people talking bollocks.
If you only have £400 to spend on a computer you buy a £400 computer. Simple really.
Er, no - have you ever had to budget for anything? Typically, people have a set amount of money and what they need to spend on something necessary, they cannot then spend on something else. Like my parents, they could have come up with a grand for a Mac but they would have struggled in other areas - and needlessly. And as for making our own decisions - yes, but how do we inform those decisions in an area when we know little about it? We listen to advice from others. And when that advice is poor (as in their case) they end up making poor decisions. And when you are old, and uncertain about a lot of things, it's easy to do. Your empathy needs a bit of work I think.
Your empathy needs a bit of work I think.
We're getting advice from IT specialists, a lack of empathy comes with the territory for some of them!!
You need to read this thread in a Harry Enfield "You didn't want to do it like that" style.
Er, no – have you ever had to budget for anything?... Your empathy needs a bit of work I think.
I've had to make choices between buying food or paying bills. Have you? I don't think I need any condescension regarding 'budgeting', thanks.
Sent from my expensive and superior Apple device.
Lol! Triggered, much? 😉
I like the word "triggered." When used as an insult, it's a handy shibboleth as to the measure of the person you're talking to.
with an SSD swap-to-disk is quick enough.
yeah, when I say I hit the orange red on the memory pressure on m1, it's not the same a hitting it with intel, the ssd that comes in the new macs is rapid, so swap is very good.
Although, one thing with to remember with the new m1s is that that graphics share the memory, so that's a consideration in the opposite direction though.
as for mac pricing, yeah it's undenyable that they rip you of for memory and hdd space. 200 quid for 4gb of ram or 200 quid for 256gb of storage is ridiculous. but ultimately if you are wanting mac, worth the upgrade. ram more than disk space.