[Closed] Any land value experts on here - or know where to look for one?

It's worth what he thinks it's worth. I'd be avoiding a solicitor and having an open conversation with him in the first instance.

As you said, he has you over a barrel.

He has something you want, possibly need and it sounds like he doesn't need to sell.

Why is he not around?

Personally I would try a more personal approach than a formal letter.

Value is very subjective, it comes down to how much you are willing to pay. It sounds like it's worth a lot more to you than it is to him.

I'd check on things like planning permission and tree cutting before deciding on how much you'd be willing to pay. Local Planning Officers can be helpful with these sort of enquiries way in advance of anything formal.

A solicitor's letter would say you are very keen, have the money for lawyers and he has you bent over a barrel and you're about to take the rough with the smooth. Times like these he might welcome a cash injection after a friendly chat.

Why is he not around?

Personally I would try a more personal approach than a formal letter.

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. It is my father who is not around, being now dead. The owner has pretty severe parkinson's and is basically not a well man at all so talking to him is not an option. The son is a renown hot head and is rumoured to be a domestic abuser and drinker and the conversation with my father ended up by all accounts nearly getting physical with every four letter word pulled out of the toolbox. My father was a pretty frail man at the time so it was a one way confrontation. I fear in the same situation I may flatten the guy which ultimately would be much worse for me than him given I am an incomer and my profession would be on the line. Keeping it at arm's length, professional and take it or leave it might be more productive or at the very least less potentially destructive.

In a machiavellian way my choice of timing is based around the current crisis which will be hitting the son's business hard and make him more interested than he would be otherwise.

Why don't you offer to lease the land off him, he may be holding onto it for sentimental reasons. Sadly as soon as you offered to buy the land value shot up. I have a similar situation, the vendor is just plain greedy...usually time is the best solution. People's circumstances change, you sure there aren't any newts on there.

What would Saul Goodman do?

Probably follow the guy, get a friend to balance a piano from a height and have you push him out the way of it falling so he owes you his life.

Or hold music festival in your garden and offer free woodland camping.

In a machiavellian way my choice of timing is based around the current crisis which will be hitting the son’s business hard and make him more interested than he would be otherwise.

Even if he is a dick, that's a bit dubious behaviour!

I would still try and speak with him, do you know what triggered his behaviour towards your father? Was he an "incomer"? Is that the issue?

I'm sure that you could control yourself even if he does kick off, just walk away.

Challenge him to a duel with land as the prize. Can you afford to loose 1/2 an acre?

Seriously door knock and cake / bottle with the offer to come back at a convenient time will work much better than a formal letter. If you can get through the door tell him your intentions and you are happy to enter in to restriction to only use as garden land. It sounds like his family circumstances may have changed to so he may now welcome cash. As to value depends what it is worth to him and you.

good luck.

Bringing a professional into an initial discussion or formal offer of exchange with a bellwanger isn't going to smooth it out. Get some fancy dress and befriend him in the pub, shoot a few lines and then when he's intoxicated get him to sign the deed..

In all seriousness though good luck.. I actually think offering to rent is probably your smoothest in... and maybe some white lies about not getting on with your dad..

I should probably add that his father owns about 200 acres of this land which he bought as a disused farm in the 70s and over the years has got planning permission for 8 or 9 plots to be used for houses (the father doing the houses himself when he was younger but the last few sold as plots) and a fishery. The remainder stays an unmanaged (and lovely to look at) rough highland wilderness - we are talking miles out in the sticks in a bit of the world that is already pretty remote. So there is very little sentimental attachment to the land I can imagine. This bit I'm interested is has no value as a building plot because of the geography (stuck between our house and a stream and set of pylons and the gradient would make it impossible too). So thinking about it he must in his head at least value bits of his land by what they are worth with planning permission. He has a plot up the road for sale with permission for a 4 bed house and healthy garden for £80K.

I had a similar conversation with the owner of a house that backs onto mine.
They have a tiny garden, approx 9 metres by 4 metres.
I have a huge garden, being a corner plot, approx 30m long x30m wide going to 10m at the house.
He wanted to sell his house, but couldnt sell it as "the garden isnt big enough"
I offered a plot of my land for £30k, approx. 9M x 12M.
He thought that price was a joke, and offered £1k, as "I wasnt doing anything with it, and I couldnt build on it"
I declined, and he got more and more irate that I wouldnt reduce the price.
I got my advice from an estate agent who said the house price would go up by £30k with a larger garden,and would be easier to sell.
It would have been cost neutral for him, as well as being in a better position to sell his house.
So, it isnt what the land is worth to the seller, it is what it is worth to you.
The strip of land is worth bu...r all to him, but to you it's a real bonus to have your own driveway.

Escort and hidden camera?

I got my advice from an estate agent

Because they're renowned for their probity.

A surveyor would've been a better bet, as then you'd have an idea of what the land physically is worth, rather than a guess about something's market value.

£10k?

It has to be enough for him to want to do it.

A surveyor would’ve been a better bet, as then you’d have an idea of what the land physically is worth, rather than a guess about something’s market value.

Land is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Nothing more nothing less.

It sounds like the OP is stuck, he has to decide how much it's worth to him. Is it a "nice to have" or something he really needs to make his property "work". From reading the description it sounds like it will only become really important if he wants to sell or rent the property to someone outside his family.

As you said, he has you over a barrel.

And you have him over a barrel being the only person who would reasonably want to ever buy it.

This purely comes down to knowing how to bargain.

A surveyor would be a sound idea IMHO but only as a tactic in the bargaining. You'd be able to slap down a piece of paper saying it's worth X and that gives a good starting point for negotiation. The 'expertise' of the surveyor helps make the valuation convincingly 'true'.

Of course not point in commissioning if you really think the owner is intractable.

they need a bit more land so that you don’t have to access one across the drive of the other and also to have a bit more garden now it is two dwellings

Just get this access written into new deeds given you seem to be able to split the properties with a work around why give yourself added grief?

The son is a renown hot head and is rumoured to be a domestic abuser and drinker and the conversation with my father ended up by all accounts nearly getting physical with every four letter word pulled out of the toolbox.

Sounds like the perfect neighbour.

I think, hothead or not, people don't really take all that kindly to being told you want to buy something that they own but aren't offering for sale.

How would you react to bypasser knocking on your door and saying they've decided they're going to buy your car - or even receiving a solicitors letter telling you that - effectively starting the procedure of a sale of something that you're not selling.

Even if you don't see the land as especially productive or valuable for a land owning family business the land is their business and their family's future. Selling a bit is reducing their capital and revenue now and reducing the viable inheritance they pass on to every future generation. Its a big deal.

Just get this access written into new deeds given you seem to be able to split the properties with a work around why give yourself added grief?

This is very much plan A. It should work. There appears to be some hassle with that from mortgage lenders not being very happy these days to give mortgages to properties without total ownership of its access route. There must be hundreds of thousands of properties in that situation so I can't believe it is insurmountable. Seems to be a relatively new 'problem' however.

But long term it would be desirable to get rid of the issue and have a bit more space. And a bit of woodland to get busy with a chainsaw in!

Sounds like the perfect neighbour.

I think, hothead or not, people don’t really take all that kindly to being told you want to buy something that they own but aren’t offering for sale.

How would you react to bypasser knocking on your door and saying they’ve decided they’re going to buy your car – or even receiving a solicitors letter telling you that – effectively starting the procedure of a sale of something that you’re not selling.

Not really a neighbour in the conventional sense - the family owns the land and the ill father lives on it a mile or two away. Son lives 30 odd miles away I guess.

Re your scenario - not quite the car scenario you mention but a few years ago someone put a letter through our door offering to buy our house. We weren't thinking about selling before but it prompted us to think about it. And we did - best house buying/selling experience we have ever had. So if it was the other way around it would go quite well I suspect!

I had a similar conversation with the owner of a house that backs onto mine.
They have a tiny garden, approx 9 metres by 4 metres.
I have a huge garden, being a corner plot, approx 30m long x30m wide going to 10m at the house.
He wanted to sell his house, but couldnt sell it as “the garden isnt big enough”
I offered a plot of my land for £30k, approx. 9M x 12M.
He thought that price was a joke, and offered £1k, as “I wasnt doing anything with it, and I couldnt build on it”
I declined, and he got more and more irate that I wouldnt reduce the price.
I got my advice from an estate agent who said the house price would go up by £30k with a larger garden,and would be easier to sell.
It would have been cost neutral for him, as well as being in a better position to sell his house.
So, it isnt what the land is worth to the seller, it is what it is worth to you.
The strip of land is worth bu…r all to him, but to you it’s a real bonus to have your own driveway.

Nail on the head.

I've sold land fairly recently (via tender) and it is surprising the different values people attach to it depending on their personal circumstances.
I would engage a surveyor (there must be an agricultural specialist local to you) and ask him to send a letter to the guy saying he has a client interested in the piece of land. I think it's much better to approach it this way, giving them some time for the idea to settle before going in with offers, etc.

+1 on try and do it personally first.

From his point of view, you're wanting to buy something he doesn't want to sell, you're the incomer who immediately uses a solicitor, and you're assuming that all this land and space means nothing to him...

Having lived and worked in a pretty small Highland community, relationship is everything, even if at times you could punch a few of them....

You mention £80,000 for a plot with planning. How big is this plot? Starting point for a site without planning is 50% less than the value with planning. So, say £40,000 for this. Work out what that would be per sq.ft, and then apply that figure to your plot. Least you then have a proper calculated figure.

Second other opinions on starting negotiation yourself, don't waste money on a solicitor, who will just write what you tell them (a figure)

or if you really want it, go with the a pro rata value based on the price of the plots with planning.

100 sq m = £80k
50 sq m = £40k

May seem expensive, but it is objective.

As above. Decide what you are willing to pay for the piece of land then approach the owner in a friendly, fairly casual way to gauge whether they might be interested in selling. If you want to be formal in a letter then write it yourself. Sending a letter from a solicitor stating that you are buying the land is a good way to put off the owner before anything even starts. The 'value' of the land is what someone is willing to pay for it. You could use agricultural value, building plot value, increase in the value of your property after acquisition etc as a starting point in your thought process, but don't go barging in with a low 'correct' value then get upset when turned down. Just because you think the land should have no value to the owner that doesn't make it true.
My parents have a working farm in the south of England and regularly receive such requests. If they had sold every little parcel of land that was assumed to be worthless to them over the last 20 years there probably wouldn't still be a farm now!

or if you really want it, go with the a pro rata value based on the price of the plots with planning.

Are those north of scotland figures? it doesn't have planning so not necessarily relevant (but would certainly give you a "top" level where you might want to think again if he wants more).

If its woodland and you plan to keep it as woodland might be worth working out the equivalent prices of Woodlands for Sale website. Those prices usually reflect the fact that (a) planning is unlikely (b) there may be restrictive covenants preventing building.

There appears to be some hassle with that from mortgage lenders not being very happy these days to give mortgages to properties without total ownership of its access route.

Are you talking to Scottish solicitors and scottish lenders? I'm amazed that is a problem - is it just someone is using the wrong language - or has called something the wrong thing (e.g. should the access be joint and severally owned rather than a right of access? purely as an example).

I'd have to agree with others though a letter is only likely to antagonise him. A letter from the solicitors of some guy down south whos dad he didn't get on with - all the more so. In your shoes I would be approaching him with an olive branch and mentioning nothing about the land. "Hi, I'm Convert, I'm moving up to be closer to my mum, and thought I should introduce myself. I know my dad was a bit of a cantankerous git and didn't always get on with you, but just wanted to say if there's anything we can do to be better neighbours, especially with your dad being a bit infirm and you a bit of a treck away here's my number."

Its presumably less of an issue with access in the short term since your Mum and you can presumably devise civil practical arrangements. Longer term you build the bridge with the neighbour's son and then talk sensibly about what you'd like to do (he needs to understand you want to create a new access not build half a dozen holiday homes!).

Are you talking to Scottish solicitors and scottish lenders? I’m amazed that is a problem – is it just someone is using the wrong language – or has called something the wrong thing (e.g. should the access be joint and severally owned rather than a right of access? purely as an example).

I’d have to agree with others though a letter is only likely to antagonise him. A letter from the solicitors of some guy down south whos dad he didn’t get on with – all the more so. In your shoes I would be approaching him with an olive branch and mentioning nothing about the land. “Hi, I’m Convert, I’m moving up to be closer to my mum, and thought I should introduce myself. I know my dad was a bit of a cantankerous git and didn’t always get on with you, but just wanted to say if there’s anything we can do to be better neighbours, especially with your dad being a bit infirm and you a bit of a treck away here’s my number.”

Its presumably less of an issue with access in the short term since your Mum and you can presumably devise civil practical arrangements. Longer term you build the bridge with the neighbour’s son and then talk sensibly about what you’d like to do (he needs to understand you want to create a new access not build half a dozen holiday homes!).

That all sounds very sensible.

The issue with the mortgage was brought to my attention by a Scottish mortgage broker (and sort of friend). We initially were looking to buy mum out of the 2nd one now with a mortgage hence he went looking for us armed with deeds, plans and photos and that is what he came back with. It's a buy to holiday let mortgage we were after so the pool of lenders was pretty small and probably enhanced the issue. With everything going on we have shelved the 2nd purchase and trying to get a mortgage until when things are a bit less fraught.

But agreed - if we don't need the land right away and can sort the mortgage without using time to get a bit more embedded is probably wise.

ou mention £80,000 for a plot with planning. How big is this plot? Starting point for a site without planning is 50% less than the value with planning. So, say £40,000 for this. Work out what that would be per sq.ft, and then apply that figure to your plot. Least you then have a proper calculated figure.

About half an acre, maybe a little more. But a choice half acre of nice flat land with a good view. The land I'm thinking of has neither of those benefits. But.....it's the bit I want which adds an x factor to it's value!

And you have him over a barrel being the only person who would reasonably want to ever buy it.

No, he could sell it to anyone he likes - Convert can only buy from one person.

As my dad used to say "land.... they're not making it any more, get it while you can!"
I've just leased 4sqm of land to a pipeline company for £2500.
BIL paid about £140k for a 5 acre paddock next to his house last year - agricultural land with no planning.
The half acre your looking at would add considerable value to the the house and as such it's going to cost you unless the current owner is an idiot.
Convert - you should also check with planning that it would be OK to use the land (if you got it) for your purposes..... may require a change of use application.

It won't have a single value so no one can tell you a figure. Small plots tend to be worth way more than a big plot per acre, by a huge factor. From you description I'd say low to mid 5 figures, but I don't doubt you can find similar plots that have changed hands for a few thousand or even less. It just comes down to what the owner is willing to take and if they dabble in property development they will not let it go cheap.

If you are planning to live in the house I think I would do nothing at this stage. Move in, get friendlier, then bring the subject up over a beer one evening. Play the long game. If you are just doing it to sell it for more then you just need to work out what value it adds, but I can't see why they would want to sell in that scenario unless you offer top dollar.

Wonder if it may be possible for you to engage someone to act on your behalf - front you if you like - so that they approach the party and try and buy it, then sell it on to you for a fee as well. Just as a thought in case your name is akin to mud. 🙂

A little digging locally may establish why they're hanging on to it, or some other approach that might work.

Is the land a croft. If it is that gives you considerable room for movement that is not available anywhere else.

Land is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Nothing more nothing less.

True to an extent, but there are ways of getting a 'fair' value if both sides are looking to do that.

There have been a few suggestions above but the one that rings true to me in this case is the value it adds to your two properties. What are they worth as they are, what are they worth with this extra chunk of land. That figure is likely to be larger than any other use of the land from what you say but it's also the value the seller would be transferring to you. A surveyor/estate agent would be able to help.

I was some years back involved in financing property deals so have been involved in this sort of thing many times.

My advice.

Dont bother with a valuer / surveyor. It is what is known in the trade as a ransom strip and the value is a calculation based on what it is worth to you v's them and if you can agree on any middle ground.

I would just start with an offer. Include their legal costs in it and make that clear (assume say £500). Decide what you would be willing to pay as a max, open your bid at 60% or 70% of the max.

If the money is tempting they will engage - if not then that is it.