I'm creating a graphic about use of space, in English and Welsh. One of the elements is a "Shared Use Space", ie a path used by cyclists, pedestrians, etc. For the translation I have "Gofod Defnydd a Rennir" which is too long for the caption box. Can it be sensibly shortened? I can shorten the English to "Shared Space" or even something else, if that helps. Would "Gofod a Rennir" be correct? Diolch
I don't speak Welsh. But I lived in Aberystwyth/Aberaeron for seven years which was long enough to realise that word for word translation isn't good enough and you need to reformulate.
I googled: "llwybr troed a rennir " which gave me this plan:
which has all the translations you need without making people think you're talking about office space. It won't fit in your boxes though.
MrsL isn’t fluent but has studied for a few years and has just completed a masters in planning in Cardiff.
She suggests: “Best short translation would be ‘Lle rhannu’ which is shared space or Lle cyfran.”
Hope this helps but get it checked by a professional translator!
"Llwybr rhannu" Shared path
"Lle rhannu" shared space/place
Also depends where in Cymru you are, in the South there are many dialect differences, to the proper North
Good luck!
Very good friends are as (N) Welsh as they come* and they say that it's a very hard language with differences between N & S.
Written is even more difficult than spoken apparently!
* They pretty much only speak Welsh in their house but when it comes to official written Welsh documents they always read the English version on the back!!
Hope this helps but get it checked by a professional translator!
Just check you don't get their out of office reply! This is one of my all time favourite news stories.
"I am not in the office at the moment. Send any work to be translated".
The welsh language is no respecter of caption boxes 🙂
at least you’re not making interpretation panels of Icelandic volcanos
Just to throw a spanner in the works, "shared space" is not recommended
https://roadsafetygb.org.uk/news/review-examines-design-and-implementation-of-shared-spaces/
Thanks all. I appreciate the issues with variation in the language. A place I used to work we had the translations done by a language professor at Cardiff uni and we still got people complaining it wasn't right. Hopefully “Lle rhannu” will do it, I'll put that on for now while I check. Its a digital label so if anyone complains its very easy to edit
Also why don't any fonts have a "ŷ"? You've made a y and a ^ but you not stuck them together
Just to throw a spanner in the works, “shared space” is not recommended
Interesting point. Having read the link I can't say that I agree. I much prefer shared space to any of the options they suggest
I think the point they raising is that pedestrians and bikes should ALWAYS take precedence over motorised vehicles. THere's a "shared space" through Poynton near me and it's more or less a horrific free for all rather than the idyll I think they'd hoped to create. I'll give you three guesses why....
In other Welsh news, this turned up in Coventry recently.
Can't help with the Welsh (I'm barely fluent in English).
Just check you don’t get their out of office reply! This is one of my all time favourite news stories.
“I am not in the office at the moment. Send any work to be translated”.
I can't not mention this if we're discussing Welsh translation stories: Ambulance... Ambiwlans - Has dumbing down gone too far? (Pistonheads)
Mae "lle rhannu" neu "llwybr rhannu" yn ddigon cywir.
"Lle i'w rannu" yn well.
Just check you don’t get their out of office reply! This is one of my all time favourite news stories.
A good friend of mine visited Wales a few years ago. He came back telling me about this MASSIVE beach they had, it was signposted for bloody miles! I asked what it was called. "Traeth Beach."
...according to a report, from one specific group. I also agree with the previous poster that they're probably well intentioned, but wrong. The suggested alternatives are just meaningless jargon, and very confusing.Just to throw a spanner in the works, “shared space” is not recommended
In the specific case of Poynton, there's nothing in principle wrong with the term "shared space" (it doesn't automatically imply equality, or that no-one might have precedence over anyone else), but it clearly [I]doesn't[/I] apply there so they should have thought up a different name for that scheme in the first place!
There's a "proper" shared space near me - not even any actual pavements - which was very controversial obviously but has proved successful I think (even Clarkson was forced to u-turn his opinion on it!)
The usual reaction upon driving up to it the first time is utter bewilderment - but in 99.99% of motorists the result of this is slowing right down & paying a huge amount of care/attention!
https://www.kentonline.co.uk/ashford/news/mocked-by-clarkson-and-comedians-but-has-it-been-a-disaste-276289/
nothing to do with the OP of course, but interesting!
and it’s more or less a horrific free for all rather than the idyll I think they’d hoped to create
Indeed. And the road surface looks like it would be the slipperiest surface known to man in the wet so I always expect to crash when I ride through there (I haven't yet)
He came back telling me about this MASSIVE beach they had, it was signposted for bloody miles! I asked what it was called. “Traeth Beach.”
🤣
Can I piggyback on this. Love this Pendevig track - but can any native speakers give me a gist of what it's about?
I can’t not mention this if we’re discussing Welsh translation stories: Ambulance… Ambiwlans – Has dumbing down gone too far? (Pistonheads)
It's the Pistonheads 'Is Crown Race included?' thread!
Can I piggyback on this. Love this Pendevig track – but can any native speakers give me a gist of what it’s about?
Not a fluent speaker by any means but I understood enough to know the bloke is professing his love for her and she's telling him how much she hates him, a la Fairytale of New York. But the poem bit at the end (which I loved) reveals that she always loved him, as she's crying while sewing his old shirts. That's what I got anyway, caveat emptor. It might be a christmas song lol. Very good, though.
OP - as others have said, llywbr rhannu would get the job done. Rhannu ceir is carsharing, for e.g.
Mae “lle rhannu” neu “llwybr rhannu” yn ddigon cywir.
“Lle i’w rannu” yn well.
Dwi'n cytuno.
Mae "lle rhannu" neu "llwybr rhannu" efallai'n golygu llwybr sydd wedi ei rhannu.
</rusty Welsh>
OP: 'gofod' is the wrong sort of space - it's the one with stars and spaceships in.
'Lle' is a better word (area / place / location) or 'llwybr' (=path).
I think that 'Rhannu' can also be translated as 'divided' so might be ambiguous if you're trying to convey that it specifically *isn't* a divided place, but a place for 'dividing' (i.e. sharing) which is what dafydd17's comment was about:
'Lle i rhannu' ~~ Space to share.
(I wouldn't say lle i'w rhannu - I would translate that as something like: 'A place where [something refered to previously] is shared', but I'm very rusty.)
You could say something like 'llwybr cymysg' (=mixed path)
ETA: You need to translate the concept, rather than the words
Very good friends are as (N) Welsh as they come* and they say that it’s a very hard language
It's really not. I mean, any language you don't speak is hard, but there are far harder ones out there.
Google Translate also offers llwybr ar y cyd meaning something like 'united path', since rennir seems to mean divided which is quite literally the exact opposite of what you want to achieve, and would not require a sign 🙂
OP: ‘gofod’ is the wrong sort of space – it’s the one with stars and spaceships in.
That would be brilliant on a sign. 😀
A good friend of mine visited Wales a few years ago. He came back telling me about this MASSIVE beach they had, it was signposted for bloody miles! I asked what it was called. “Traeth Beach.”
My family are Welsh but don't speak the language. My brother at some point on a drive up to North Wales commented that there were a lot of hotels in the Gwesty chain, according to the 'Gwesty Hotel' signposts he kept seeing.
I like llwbyr cymysg the most. Also, isn't Ffordd more like 'way' rather than specifically a road? So, maybe you could use that : ffordd cymysg.
Rhannu (rannir) is also used to mean divide by in a maths sense (naw rhannu tri yn hafal i dri, 9/3=3) but definitely means share too.
If I was riding down a path and the sign said "llwybr cymysg", I'd expect it to change from tarmac to gravel halfway down 😉
In other Welsh news, this turned up in Coventry recently.
Surely if it's in Coventry it should just be blank?
‘gofod’ is the wrong sort of space – it’s the one with stars and spaceships in.
^ That was/is my firm belief, but I see 'Rhannu gofod â ...' has made it into the Welsh translation of the Highway Code as a translation for 'sharing space with ...'
Rhannu (rannir) is also used to mean divide by in a maths sense (naw rhannu tri yn hafal i dri, 9/3=3) but definitely means share too.
My daughter said this too so yeah.
or llwybr Cyffredinol which means 'general (use) path'
or llwybr Sawl defnyddiwr - several users path
Or, try these guys at Aber Uni:
https://www.aber.ac.uk/en/cgg/translation-and-support/translation/
Still favouring llwybr rhannu as a shorthand way of putting the OPs llwybr defnydd a rennir. Also, the llwybr Mawddach is signed ‘mynediad a bawb’ (access for all) which carries a slightly different meaning but might work?
I’m creating a graphic about use of space, in English and Welsh. One of the elements is a “Shared Use Space”, ie a path e
Is it a space, or a path?
Multi-use space = Man aml-ddefnydd (example)
Multi-use path = Llwybr aml-ddefnydd (example)
These aren't subject to north/south differences.
I applaud everyone's efforts, but I'm afraid they're all wrong to varying degrees.
Gofod Defnydd a Rennir = space of use that is shared
Gofod a Rennir = space that is shared
llwybr troed a rennir = footpath that is shared
Lle rhannu = sharing place
Lle cyfran = place of proportion
Llwybr rhannu = path of sharing, or dividing path
Lle rhannu = place of sharing
llwybr sydd wedi ei rhannu = path that has been shared
Lle i rhannu = place for sharing
Lle i'w rannu = place to be shared
llwbyr cymysg = mixed path (this is the best of the bunch)
ffordd cymysg = mixed road
llwybr Cyffredinol = general path
llwybr Sawl defnyddiwr = path of many users
Its a digital label so if anyone complains its very easy to edit
Regardless of whether people complain, I don't think you want to be wrong. People will notice your (or your client's) lack of taking the matter seriously.
Llwybyr aml-ddefnidd is how I’d translate the phrase. I think I’d also accept Llwybyr cymysg.
Interesting to see how many different suggestions we’ve seen in this thread. Just goes to show how difficult it can be to translate a common phrase.
Yes, partly because English can be so economical and we condense things to put on signs because it saves space.
and also to a large extent, translation is a very difficult task no matter the source / target language, which is why the rise of "auto-translation" servies is not great as it means it's harder for professional translators when every one goes for the free version, even though the output might well be rubbish
and also to a large extent, translation is a very difficult task no matter the source / target language, which is why the rise of “auto-translation” servies is not great as it means it’s harder for professional translators when every one goes for the free version, even though the output might well be rubbish
Hmm, yes, but auto translation services are pretty good now. They are AI-driven based on the same text in multiple languages. They've improved markedly over the years too as they learn. When translating a common language say French into English, I find it hard to fault the English but then again there may be nuances in the French that I am missing.
They are always worse with less common languages, because there's less stuff out there to work with, but even they have improved loads. I think the issue in this case is that the original text is a sign, not part of some text that AI can extract meaning from.
it’s harder for professional translators when every one goes for the free version
For most people with most tasks there's no way it's practical or affordable to hire a professional for some small job every now and then, so it's Google Translate or nothing. I don't think people are using Google Translate for novels to save some cash.
Actually that gives me an idea..... 🙂
Shared use space - Defnydd yr ardal wedi ei rhannu.
I don’t think people are using Google Translate for novels to save some cash.
I helped run a french conversation club for a while, befpore the pandemic. We once had an author ask us to review the french translation of his book - quite apart from the fact that it was a self published diatribe of unbelievable drivel in dire need of professional editing, the auto-translation was horrendous - and that's from me as an english person reading french.
Actually, I think the "self published" bit may explain the "dire need of professional editing", I reckon i was turned down by everony how looked at it
surely this has to be the thread of the week?
I had a chat with chatGPT in Welsh the other day. Fair play to them, they were a very well spoken young AI, I was very impressed. First time I've ever talked to an AI in Welsh, so that was nice.
surely this has to be the thread of the week?
sgwrs ar-lein yr wythnos
(Apologies in advance for the Google translate)
Wales Government provide a free translation service by real translators for small businesses and charities for limited amounts of text.
Google translate not required
https://businesswales.gov.wales/heloblod/helo-blod
Why bother when you can just ask STW and get 10 translations to choose from 😉
Shared use space – Defnydd yr ardal wedi ei rhannu.
Use of the area has been shared
this all reminds me of when the local bus company used a lazy Spanish->Basque translation on the posters for its night bus service, proudly claiming that its buses were later than ever…
(Spanish has tarde to mean both late & not on time, but Basque has a word for each meaning)
Why bother when you can just ask STW and get 10 translations to choose from 😉
Posted 3 hours ago
Yn wir!
🙂
Mae wedi gofyn am rywun sy'n rhugl yn y Gymraeg, ond mae'r rhan fwyaf o atebion gan Saeson neu ddysgwyr!
Dylet ti wybod yn well- Yn STW dan ni i gyd yn arbenigwyr mewn popeth 🙂
helpu'r dysgwyr plis!
Welsh is structured differently to English - it has more in common with French ie a 'Romance' language, rather than English, which is Germanic in origin.
For example, there are several ways to say YES and NO, depending on how the question is phrased...
Well it's a mix - you can conjugate verbs as in romance languages (cerddais i) or use auxiliary verbs like in germanic (Nes i cerdded). I find it a lot easier than learning all the Spanish tenses.
Loads of similarities to English in the way tenses are used, things that you struggle with learning other languages are more, "oh, that's just like in English "
Yes and no are just ie and na. Learning to mirror the question tenses takes a while to come in speaking and nobody will care if you just say ie or na, or whether you remember the mutations.
These kids are nailing it in just 12 weeks!
https://twitter.com/NewyddionS4C/status/1603444685003005952?t=G5N99S2L1I761gIBxL6Gdw&s=19
Learning to mirror the question tenses takes a while to come in speaking
I dunno - it applies just as well in English.
"Did you unpack the dishwasher?"
"I did".
"Will you do it tomorrow?"
"I will."
Isn't that the same thing?
Yea, this is where my limit currently is - very basic! I thought for Yes and No, you could use
Oes/Nagoes if the question begins with oes...
Ydw/Nacydw if the question begins with ydw...
But we need more of that where I live (Powys) - people just piling in + having a go!
Easy to write, yeah. During a conversation as a learner, trying to understand thr gist of the question and still having the capacity to correctly mirror the tense of the question and change the subject and verb ending... Bit more of a "her"
Yea, this is where my limit currently is – very basic! I thought for Yes and No, you could use
Oes/Nagoes if the question begins with oes…
Ydw/Nacydw if the question begins with ydw…But we need more of that where I live (Powys) – people just piling in + having a go!
Posted 6 minutes ago
Agree. But the mental gymnastics for a new learner to successfully answer a question are quite involved. Eg.
Would you say..? No, I wouldn't
Faset ti'n deud...? Na, na faswn
Will you help? Yes, I will
Wnei di helpu? Ie, gwna
You'll be understood with ie and na, and the rest will come naturally later.
It’s really not. I mean, any language you don’t speak is hard, but there are far harder ones out there.
Like Irish Gaelic. My late partner moved to Barmouth with her family when she was nine, and had to learn Welsh, her best friend there was a Welsh speaker and they stayed friends once they left school. Heulwen lives in Llanddewi Brefi now - if I was still riding, I’d take advantage of her new AirBnB and take the bike up.
About twenty years ago she moved to Schull, near Cork with her then partner and her daughters, and tried to get to grips with Gaelic, but just couldn’t manage it; she found it far too difficult to understand; she kept telling me Welsh is really simple, but there are so many things in Gaelic involving tenses, and modifiers she just couldn’t grasp it.
Bless her, when she came to live with me, she tried to teach me Welsh. A forlorn hope, I struggle to remember everyday words in my native language, my spell-check has learned to speak English better than I can, and can understand complex words in context, which is a blessing. 🫠
it has more in common with French ie a ‘Romance’ language, rather than English
It is very, very similar to Breton.
Oes/Nagoes if the question begins with oes…
Ydw/Nacydw if the question begins with ydw…
Would you say..? No, I wouldn’t
Faset ti’n deud…? Na, na faswn
Will you help? Yes, I will
Wnei di helpu? Ie, gwna
Is this bike yours? Ia / na
Have you fixed your bike? Do / naddo
Do you have a bike? Oes / nac oes
Shall we go for a ride? Iawn / na
Are you going for a ride? ydw / nac ydw
Is he coming for a ride? Ydi / nac ydi
In the 2022 census returns Welsh speakers had dropped by around 24,000 despite a lot of effort being put into promoting the language https://theconversation.com/number-of-welsh-speakers-has-declined-pandemic-disruption-to-education-may-be-a-cause-196184
This forum has a wide range of experts and fields of knowledge
Welsh is a wonderfully prosaic language, the word for oven or bakery is popty, the word for microwave is popty ping (actually an urban myth) but ironing translating as smwthio is correct.
Trying to find positives in the census result - the huge decrease in very young speakers is worrying but possibly a pandemic related anomoly, but it seems to be on the up in cities which is where the battle will have to be fought now. Rural Wales is stuffed, as residents get priced out. The future of yr hen iaith is now in good, Welsh-medium urban schools. The boomer generation, huge numbers of largely non-Welsh speaking people, is living longer than ever but as their numbers drop off the ratio will start to look different.
People born in the Welsh language movement of the 60s brought up their kids in the language (hence growth in age 16+ speakers), and there's no reason not to think that their grandkids in 2031 will also be.
That's my sprinkle of glitter on the turd anyway.
Disclaimer: Welsh speaker but don't live there. But can draw certain parallels with how it's panned out here with the Basque language.
Welsh is written phonetically, for the most part, which is handy for speakers. In languages where this isn't the case, like English, it's far more difficult to teach kids to read. This shouldn't be under-estimated, in my opinion. Our kids, especially the slower learners, have to put an enormous amount of time into learning to read and write because there are so many bonkers rules and exceptions that make no sense. It's very confusing. Compare that to Finnish which has a 1-1 mapping between sounds and letters and is very simple to write down (not to learn, as a foreigner, but that's a different issue).
I wonder if the reason Finnish kids start later and achieve more is because they have to spend less time having stupid language spelling/reading rules hammered into their brains and can spend more time learning other stuff.
Welsh is written phonetically, for the most part
true. Although, ydy dy dei du di yn dy dŷ du di neu ydy dy dad di yn dy dŷ du di?
Bit of a follow up. I emailed the Welsh government translation service mentioned above and they came back with: "Gofod a rennir"
As that is closest to the original translation I had and is government approved I think that might be best for me but it doesn't seem to have gained much approval here.
I bow to their knowledge, obviously. But I still think llwybr was better for the use that I pictured from your OP. Gofod makes me think of a plaza or precinct or something.
Edit: eg 
true. Although, ydy dy dei du di yn dy dŷ du di neu ydy dy dad di yn dy dŷ du di?
Nice work, Dai. 😀