[Closed] Any DAC users out there? Thoughts?

RopeyReignRider - Member
People are very reluctant to accept that the "HiFi" world is largely rubbish, fuelled by marketing. I also spent a bit of time working for Arcam and learned all about what (or rather didn't) separate their low end stuff from their super duper £££££ stuff.

Worked for an automotive company that bought into the audio business for a bit and one comment from the CEO was him laughing that he could charge a fortune for the same cheap cables that were used for the car looms, just dressed up with fancy looking connectors.

Thing with the audiophile world is some things are "proven" by science and stats of sorts, and that is enough to convince people, but almost everyone will never be able to tell the difference in a true blind test (I found reviews and audiophile magazines didn't really do them properly blind).

Examples like the jitter argument on CDs and the "difference" between digital cables. Waveforms would be produced showing a microscopic measureable difference with the right equipment and therefore people would buy the better one and be absolutely convinced it sounded better. Reality is the measurable difference makes crap all difference when actually converted into sound, even with the top end speakers, DACs and amps.

And yeah, directional cables! 😆 I actually have some I think on my speaker cables. Obviously electrons do flow better in one direction and make it sound better 😉 (utter BS).

That place I used to work at got me entry to hi-fi shows and so went along, and it had all this crap being pedalled. When it got so bearded folk raving about valves I'd had enough. Yeah, warm sound. Hell, I'll stick my speakers next to a radiator if I want my sound to be warm 😛

When it got so bearded folk raving about valves I'd had enough. Yeah, warm sound.

You can call it "warm" if you like or not. Valve amps sound distinctly different than something made up of solid state components.

Do they sound "better"? I guess that's pretty subjective.

If my old Yamaha does, surely much more modern amps do?

This was my thinking also. I guess the counter argument is, you and I are both looking at A/V receivers rather than "Hi-Fi" amplifiers.

But then we're into the realms of a stereo amp being superior to a surround amp because it's simpler, and I'm no more convinced about that now than I was last week when someone claimed it as fact.

On that note,

Does a 'proper' stereo amp typically not have digital inputs then? I can see the logic spending money on a separate DAC, but I can also see a logic in doing that conversion in-box rather than trailing an analogue signal about the place over lengths of bloody coax.

I bought a Beresford TC-7520 for the living room system and it is great. So good I got a Caymanised one for the office. I am kind of the opinion that once you get beyond a certain threshold, all DACs are pretty indistinguishable from one another. Some introduce a colouration to the sound but I would put them in the below threshold category.

For that reason the inputs, construction, look and price are just as important as the sound when you make a choice.

I can also see a logic in doing that conversion in-box rather than trailing an analogue signal about the place over lengths of bloody coax.

I think things are going that way with people like Devialet making top end kit with everything in a single box. The legacy of mixed digital and analogue sources mean that most amps until recently have expected the head unit to handle the DAC bit. Times are changing though.

The legacy of mixed digital and analogue sources mean that most amps until recently have expected the head unit to handle the DAC bit. Times are changing though.

I think that's exactly it, it's legacy baggage.

Back in the day your sources would be, what, primarily a phono stage. Add a radio and maybe a tape deck if you were so inclined. All analogue.

Then along came CD, the young upstart in all its digital finery. It made sense then to have the digital signal span down to analogue before it hit the amplifier as that's all the existing amplifiers understood. More digital sources followed and so a separate DAC stage was sensible.

Now though, we're in a digital world; analogue sources are a relative rarity, the bastion of those special few who cling to their records in the belief that she sound of frying chips in the background enhances the experience. A separate DAC stage is not only unnecessary, it's nonsensical. You want the DAC to be the last leg of the process, right before the speakers, not two feet away and before amplification takes place. That way madness lies, it doesn't matter how high-end your DAC box is if you're then amplifying any analogue signal degradation and interference.

A separate DAC stage is not only unnecessary, it's nonsensical.

Why? I have a laptop which I use for a lot of stuff. I bought a USB DAC so I could stream FLAC to my decent quality hifi amplifier. Makes a lot of sense to me and sounds pretty good to. Makes a lot economic sense to.

You want the DAC to be the last leg of the process, right before the speakers, not two feet away and before amplification takes place.

I see your point but is it even possible to "amplify" a digital signal? Doesn't the signal have be analogue before you can amplify?

Why? I have a laptop which I use for a lot of stuff. I bought a USB DAC so I could stream FLAC to my decent quality hifi amplifier. Makes a lot of sense to me and sounds pretty good to. Makes a lot economic sense to.

And to my mind that makes perfect sense, if a digital path isn't available. In pure quality terms though I'd have expected something like an S/PDIF connection to batter a USB DAC into a cocked hat.

I see your point but is it even possible to "amplify" a digital signal? Doesn't the signal have be analogue before you can amplify?

A quick Google would suggest that "direct digital" amps do exist, but are unusual. You may well be right that it's not the best approach though, I was mulling over ideas really rather than stating absolute facts.

Well amplifying a 1 still makes it a 1 😉

But amps that do digital input and a DAC are quite common now. More in the AV amp field.

As I mentioned with my Squeezebox set up. I could digital coax out from it and into the amp digital in. The amp then does the DAC operation. It's just the DAC in the box is supposedly quite good so I stick with that, but doubt I'd really be able to tell the difference.

Modern AV amps are also sporting HD audio quality over HDMI. Not just for movies, but for 96/24 HD audio via things like Dolby TrueHD / DTS HD-MA and LPCM, stereo or surround if you like. Regular S/PDIF just can't handle the bandwidth. Decoding is of course in the amp. It's a whopping HD audio DAC in there. However the amps vary massively in quality, but it's less about the DAC but about the optimisations made for home cinema vs audio, but some are truly excellent. Most also can just output direct from the DAC to amp circuit to speaker, bypassing processing.

Well amplifying a 1 still makes it a 1

I'm amazed no-one's selling amps yet that turn a 1 into a 1 in a [i]really big font.[/i]

Most also can just output direct from the DAC to amp circuit to speaker, bypassing processing.

Yeah, my Yam has two options for this, "straight" which AIUI is basically "ignore DSP and play as encoded," and "direct" which is some sort of uber-aggressive disabling of everything. Direct even shuts off most of the front display panel.

My dissertation was on actual digital, Class D amps. Interesting stuff but never seemed to take off...

Interestingly, I've got two setups which are both class D. A Wadia power DAC, with analog REL sub and dynaudio speakers, the other is a set of Vanatoo transparent one digital monitors. To be fair, the vanatoo are 95% as good for about 20% of the price.

I also agree that the majority of the hifi literature is bullshit, and the above article on the iphone 5 dac is a good example. Quantitative measurements, but nothing to compare them with.

The point about quantitative measurements is that they are absolute (measurement uncertainties aside) - in this case he's used a standard reference test CD which should give an expected response. Electronic design isn't a matter of guessing some component values and soldering the lot together, it's a combination of design (and possibly simulation), test/measurement (loop till done). Quantitative measurements are part of that and will tell you in far more detail what the system is doing than a pair of ears can - which is exactly what he's appeared to do. Yeah, his comparative testing may be a little cursory but what he appears to be saying is 'it sounds fine and the detailed measurements back that up.' A poorer design would show up all sorts of nasties in measurement yet a subjective audio test might not detect them, and far less so identify the possible problem(s).

If you have a semi decent hi fi/pc based system already then the single biggest measurable improvement in sound quality you can make is to arrange your existing furniture to tailor the sound you hear, or if you are willing to spend a few hundred £ at most then perhaps get an audio engineer to measure the frequencies in your room and suggest ways to improve the sound. This will prob involve bass traps in the corners, tuned acoustic panels on the wall and the same on the ceiling - not expensive at all.
All that sounds intrusive but it's not, a small change can reap massive rewards especially with the poor standards of current house builds with regard to stud/partition walls. I'm dumbfounded by those who spend thousands of ££££ on hi-fi black magic but disregard the listening environment, then again all the hi fi mags/reviews have to pander to their advertisers who keep them in a job so they continue to talk bullshit.

My set up is MacBook/iTunes to Native Instruments Audio Kontrol to KRK10s active sub and KRK RP5 active monitors along with a few selectively placed corner bass traps, 4 acoustic frames on ceiling and 4 panels hung on the walls.

Did I mention I thought NAIM kit is quite good?

I think I have nearly got wife acceptance for some bass traps as the cat keeps going behind the speakers to chew the cables - I mentioned that I could fill the gaps and protect the cables by putting some bass traps in there and she is going for it 🙂

We'll done TurnerGuy, although it is more likely to be beneficial to locate the bass traps in the corners opposite your speakers - have a look through [url= https://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/610173-acoustics-treatment-reference-guide-look-here.html ]this article on room acoustics on the gearslutz forum[/url] for more advice, you can diy acoustic wall panels quite cheaply using rock wool sheets built into a frame and covered by whatever fabric you like to match/contrast with your existing decor. It is also possible to design your own bass traps for 90* corner placement.

If you are at all interested in so called electronic music then give a listen to the vid below from [url=minilogue]minilogue[/url], they are one of my fav artists and this is one of my fav vids , at this precise moment I am well into my Xmas glenfiddich solera bottle of whisky and I have db reading of 92 in my 14 x 12 room but due to the room treatment it sounds precise and sonically perfect that after countless listens I still get goosebumps when I play it - nothing compares to hearing them live through £100k worth of Funktion One sound systems and a shit hot engineer though 😀 . Those crazy swedes know how to put on an event!

Best played loud enough so that you can feel the bass in your gut and the high's bring you out in a stupid grin

I just took delivery of a Behringer U202 because of this thread...

Music out the Pc is so much more engaging where it never really was when I used 4m of cable with a 3.5mm jack into the Pc headphone socket and phono plugs at the other.

Amps are Audiolab 8000s and 8000p (pre power set up) they deserved decent signal.

Thanks.

Ho-Hum….It appears that i've went and bought a [url= https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/hifi-and-home-cinema/dacmagic-plus ]Cambridge Audio DacMagic Plus[/url], no real reason why i did it…... well…..not one i can fully justify to myself other than the fact that I'd quite like a CD transport to add to my system at some point in the near future - in fact it was whilst looking at the [url= https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/cx/cxc ]Cambridge Audio CX C dedicated transport[/url] that got me thinking. My current Audio Kontrol was bought a few years ago when i primarily used it for DJ'ing at gigs n' festivals along with plugging all sorts of midi-related studio stuff into it but i've mostly sold all my outboard gear and now only use my Native Instruments Maschine set-up for making plinky-ponk music.

The Audio Kontrol may be of use to someone on here looking for a high quality usb sound card to use with their computer and active monitors.

Details [url= http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar07/articles/niaudiokontrol.htm ]here if anyone is interested[/url], still got it's original box etc….dunno what's it worth these days but £50 sounds fair if anyone is interested.

Ken Rockwell is a bit of a flat earth kind of guy though and whilst I read his stuff I don't agree with 90% of what he writes and that stuff on DAC's is nonsense.

Oh god, has he finished chatting shit about cameras and moved onto audio too?

Oh god, has he finished chatting shit about cameras and moved onto audio too?

Was thinking the same. Sure I recognised that name from the camera world 😀 . Some of his shit makes sense though and his user guides were pretty good.

Yeah, emphasis on the [b][i][u]"some"[/u][/i][/b].

There is a £50 Maplin DAC which is very good - I use that to feed a Naim system from my laptop and the sound quality with lossless files is excellent.

Very happy with my DacMagic which arrived this morning, currently working my way through a selection of 24bit tunes from the excellent [url= http://www.erasedtapes.com/home ]Erased Tapes record label[/url], Nils Frahm at the moment soon to be followed by Lubomyr Melnyk.

Quite pleased it's pissing down and bitterly cold outside as i don't feel guilty sitting on my arse drinking coffee n' whisky at 2.30 in the afternoon 😀

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A Behringer U202 has just been delivered from Amazon - looking forward to testing it this weekend.

Hmm - well I may be doing something wrong but the sound from this DAC is worse than the standard 3.5mm to phono cable I've been using.

From PC laptop - noticeable worse, unlistenable almost.

From MacBook Pro - mostly OK, but no better detail and worse on base.

Both the above are by plugging the DAC into the USB ports of each laptop.

Should I use 3.5mm to phono into the input of the DAC?

Have you played about with your audio settings to output the maximum sample size/selected the u202 as an output device?, you should be able to use the MacBooks optical out to toslink on the u202 to see if that makes a difference but the optical out on older macs is only 96kHz and 192kHz on newer models, USB is unrestricted and is what i use despite many HiFI geeks/nerds on various forums arguing for saying USB is inferior to toslink/optical.

Have you tried all the available USB ports?

My MacBook pro doesn't have an optical out (4+ years old), and tried both USBs.

Your headphone out on the macbook pro is also an optical out port, there is a microswitch inside it that automatically detects what you plug in - may be worth a try as optical cables can be quite cheap.

[url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/kenable-Black-Fibre-TOSlink-OPTICAL/dp/B0095ZMBNA ]cheap cable here[/url]

I never knew that! Cheers, I'll give that a go.

I took a tip from someone on here to work out possible gains from buying an external DAC over just playing through the headphone jack.

Pick a good test album ripped lossless or high bit rate (whatever's representative of the music you'll be playing - spotify/amazon mp3 bit rates/ whatever you ripped your CDs at), burn it onto a CD, and play the CD on the hifi and the same file on the laptop via the headphone line out into the hifi, and play the two together, flicking between the sources.

Digital file is identical, you're just comparing the DAC in the Hifi CD player to the DAC in the laptop.

I'm not a hi-fi buff, but the laptop line out was noticeably worse (less clarity all round, muddier bass - got the wife to swap between them without knowing which was which), so I got the epiphany acoustics jobby which I'd read great things about.

I'm happy with it. I'd also have been happy if I'd not been able to tell the difference between line out and CD - would have saved some money!

I bought the Behringer thing and it's great - for less than the price of a couple of CDs I can hear all kinds of detail I couldn't hear on my CD player on music I've been listening to for years!

Your headphone out on the macbook pro is also an optical out port, there is a microswitch inside it that automatically detects what you plug in - may be worth a try as optical cables can be quite cheap.