[Closed] another one bites the dust? (arguable sellout content)

Ha ha, I've always said innocent are self righteous tw4ts.

Which goes to prove that everyone has their price

Yes another supposed right-on company succumbs to the lure of dirty money, what price ethics.

Any of you ever setup, grown and sold a company ?
I have - twice.
Dont; be so ****ng righteous if you haven;t as until you;ve been in a position where you are raiding your credit cards and mortgage every month to pay your staff you have no ****n idea.
Good on them i say - thats how your grow a business.

Its nothing about ethics and everything about money!

Ok so lets talk about ethics then in business.
So here we were with 143 staff. We had a very strong culture and a very good reputation with a high level of ethics in the way we treated our customers and each other.
Every month 4 of us would raid our personal revolcing credit mortgages and every credit card we had to the tune of $180K each, thats every month. To plug a hole. You see, a business like that, while highly profitable is also self funding therefore we had to keep it moving along. I can tell you that having a personal 180K hole every 4 weeks is an unpleasant feeling.
Then a large Telco comes along and says "We wil invest $14M into your organisation if you sell out to us, your culture etc will remain the same blah blah blah".
At that point what would you do ?
If you said you would stick to your guns you have never been there and you are a Grade A 100% liar.
You'd take the money because you've spent hundreds and hundreds of hours, unpaid, taken huge personal risk financially, socially and in somany other ways to get to where you are. You could downscale it or you could move it to the next level.
Jesus honestly some of you have no idea and I bet you sit there in your ****n cosy little jobs assuming that the worlds out to get you. Grow up.

wow.

actually, i'm sat here facing redundancy.
and no, i have never set up my own business, but how exactly does that mean that i'm not able to feel a bit saddened that a company that always claimed to have such strong ethics has sold a stake to a company who have consistently proved themselves to be amongst the least ethical companies on the entire planet?
i think it's you that needs to grow up and get a little bit of perspective mate.
innocent are hardly struggling. turnover of £100m? yes, they want to grow and expand into europe but i just wonder if they could have done so without resorting to taking money from a company that (at one point) were trying to buy an entire country's water supply whilst the people that lived there were dying of thirst?

Company makes money. Shocking.

I have plenty of perspective having been made redundant, setup and sold companies and running one now.
How would you suggest they expand then having never been there ?
Borrowed money ?
Venture capital ?
Sold more ?
Given their business and supply chains its reasonable that a coca-cola or similar would want to acquire them and from their perspective they would also find having that global leverage useful.
So my issue us with you suggesting that ethics and prudent business are the same thing. Ethics don't equate to running a proper business. Interests me that Howies are bagged in the same way. I presume you all go to work for the love of it and would happily give up your wages every month ?
As you are faced with redundancy what would you miss most about your job ? The fact that you make a contribution to society every day ..... or your pay ?

I apologise for my tone, its unacceptable. Sorry.

You'd take the money because you've spent hundreds and hundreds of hours, unpaid, taken huge personal risk financially, socially and in somany other ways to get to where you are. You could downscale it or you could move it to the next level.

You seem to be confusing your own business with that of innocent. Sounds like they are probably doing a bit better.

turnover of $100m , profit of ?

turnover of $100m , profit of ?

NZCol - don't bamboozle the armchair businessmen 😉

Perhaps Coca Cola have realised they'll have to be more like Innocent to survive rather than the other way round?

*laughs* Yeah sorry and I do apologise to xherbivorex for my original comments.
You are entitled to your opinions etc
But don't ever confuse turnover with profit - please !

funnily enough, i'm not one of the howies haters. i've bought a hell of a lot of their stuff and will no doubt buy more. which is why i said "or was it?" in my initial post...
i'm well aware that in the vast majority of cases, ethics and business growth tend to be somewhat incompatible. and no, i don't have any solutions or suggestions for an alternative way of growing. but i stand by my point, which is that i still think it's a shame they had to take money from who they did, purely based on the apparent juxtaposition of both companies' ethics...
it's reasonable to expect coca cola to attempt to acquire them because [i]that's what they do[/i], same as pretty much any area of business... the bigger boys want to get the smaller (but possibly high achieving/niche market/forward thinking) ones...

and at the moment, if i lose my job to be honest i'll miss both elements you suggested. it's a small company struggling to hold its own in a dying market, against bigger ones with more capability to ride storms such as the current one we're in. and i love working here partly because of that.
prior to this, i worked for one of the biggest companies on the planet (IBM) and it was horrendous.

What was so great about Innocent anyway? Apart from their marketing that is?

Also I don't subscribe to the theory that businesses have to grow continually to be "successful" There are plenty of nice little private businesses, making a nice living for their owners, who seem to live happy lives without worrying about global domination.

oh yeah, and the company i work for has a turnover of £30m, employs 350 staff but has made a loss or broke even for the past year and a quarter... so i do know there's a difference.
but thanks brant.

Isn't everything manufactured in Holland anyway? - they certainly don't have the production facilities for a £100m tunrover company in 2 lock ups off the Goldhawk Road behind Majestic.

Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity etc...

I've lost my timberland jacket. Anyone seen it?

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/business/-innocent-sucks-coke-200904071687/ ]Suckle at the teat[/url]

"What was so great about Innocent anyway? Apart from their marketing that is?"

Good ingredients, decent products - and donating 10% of their profits to charity: http://www.innocentfoundation.org/

"Also I don't subscribe to the theory that businesses have to grow continually to be "successful" There are plenty of nice little private businesses, making a nice living for their owners, who seem to live happy lives without worrying about global domination."

You're obviously not a director of a company then - you'd be obliged to seek the greatest return for shareholders i.e. growth wherever possible. That's what companies are for! Co-ops, non-profits or self-employment have different aims.

Actually as a director of a company you're not obliged to seek the greatest return for shareholders, it all depends on your aims for being in business.

What's so bad about Coca Cola ?

What a bunch of ****ers, selling out to one of the worst companies on the planet

lol it's like people here assumed innocent were a bunch of hippy co-op owners. From the start they have been business people, making a profit on a product that was good, expensive and made with just fruit. Why do people assume that because their product uses just fruit that they are some sort of moral guardians and now they've lost their reputation? They were just a business all along, they made good products. with investment from coca cola they will probably continue so, producing the same products teh same way. You can hardly complain that someone sells part of their good business when offered - I mean its not like they were ever suggesting "big business" was bad etc. Get a grip! Next time they take out a loan from the RBS will you be up in arms because their reputation is now shot thanks to being associated with a crap bank?

NZcol - Tell us more about why your business is so cash-hungry on a month-by-month basis but highly profitable at the same time. I'm genuinely interested.

On the original point - it amazes me how people seem to get so suckered by branding and end up thinking companies are "cool" - Orange and Honda are two examples that spring to mind.

Companies are just machines for making money, everything else is secondary. "Ethics" are more a marketing tool than anything else.

Good on them i say - thats how your grow a business.

Not always. But it has become the prevalent model, especially through ever larger leveraged buy-outs where creating increased value for a three year exit was king.

I understand wholeheartedly why, when someone says "here, have this cash - consider it the rightful payment for the flogging you have given yourself establishing your business", people say "Umm. OK."

The only reason why the buyer will promise cultural maintenance is simply brand maintenance - why damage your investment. However, over time there is usually cultural alignment, often ask a more hard edged approach is taken to the product line: viz Green & Blacks/Cadbury, Ben & Jerry's/Unilever.

Actually as a director of a company you're not obliged to seek the greatest return for shareholders, it all depends on your aims for being in business.

Quite. A director's duties are significantly wider than that. And have been further widened by the Companies Act 2006, which has codified certain duties (including in relation to stakeholders).

I think konabunny, that you kind of prove my point about their marketing, which is very good.

But, IMHO their stuff is overpriced and overpackaged and they have clearly been playing the business game of chasing growth whatever eg their dalliance with McDonalds.

Also I was talking about private businesses - that is, ones that aren't listed on the stock market, that can do what the hell they like regarding growth/chasing profits.

I'd sell anything for the right price, except my [s]bike[/s] kids

Oh, and BTW, until this announcement Innocent was a private company owned mainly by the founders with absolutely no obligation to

seek the greatest return for shareholders i.e. growth wherever possible

chakaping surely as a new start up you are generally going to be chasing your tail, start of in debt for the setup costs, recieve orders, get payment 6 weeks down the line by which time you are another months wages in debt, recieve payment - still on debt, ie potentially turning a profit but going into huge amounts of secured debt each month to pay wages.

Which goes to prove that everyone has their price

I'm anyone's for a chocolate muffin!

Every month 4 of us would raid our personal revolcing credit mortgages and every credit card we had to the tune of $180K each, thats every month. To plug a hole. You see, a business like that, while highly profitable is also self funding therefore we had to keep it moving along. I can tell you that having a personal 180K hole every 4 weeks is an unpleasant feeling.

So your highly profitable business is actually losing $180k/month?
When I had a business, i always though profit was the way to go.

I met one of the owners if Innocent a few years ago. He came to my college at Uni (Girton) before the launch to try the products out on us as he used to go there too. Nice bloke, free bar all night on Innocents tab so that was nice. He ended up in bed with a mate of mine (girl) so everyone was happy. I think the coke story is pretty old, i thought the had bought part of innocent a year or two ago?

Blimey.

Thing is, Innocent sold their products on the basis they were good for the planet, and society and all that. Load of marketing bullshit anyway, as we all know. But selling to Coca-Cola is a proper sell-out, in ethical terms. Pure hypocrites.

Now if they'd said,from the beginning, 'look, it's quite nice, but really and truly, we just want your money and don't really give a stuff about the environment, we just bang on about ethics 'cos it sells products', then fair enough.

I might launch my own range of 'Straight Up Guv' products; made in dodgy factories in countries with dubious Human Rights records, with shoddy materials, and a proper Bigfoot of a Carbon Footprint to get it to the stores/your home, but what do you really care; you're getting a cheap product that suits you and your pocket...

Hmm. Might have to work on the marketing blurb. Brant, can you help out here?

I'm anyone's for a chocolate muffin!

You shameless tart!

Pret used to be quite nice- sometimes too much fillings in their sandwiches then some years ago Mcdonalds bought into them and slowly changes became apperent...price rises, more bread than fillings etc...One morning it sounded like a Mcdonalds so I never went back.

Marketing = selling shit to idiots

Well, something like that anyway.

I would sell if it was me. I want money to ride my bike, pay my bills and enjoy life without needing a job. Life is far too short for lofty ideas to do otherwise.

Good marketing made customers all feel good about buying, thats marketing, your a bit naive if you take it all too seriously. You spend your money to make yourself feel good. They take your money to spend on stuff that makes them feel good. Its called business.

If your still upset, well there is now an opening in the market for a feel good drinks company.

He ended up in bed with a mate of mine (girl)

Bit of a smoothie then, was he?

They make pleasant drinks, out of fruit. If they stop making their drinks out of fruit, and instead make them out of mashed up starving bangladeshi children and artificial flavourings then it will all be very sad. I suspect in fact they will continue to make their drinks out of fruit, but that a proportion of the profits from this activity will go to a corporation that kills puppies just to see them die.

Following most money back to its source will leave you feeling pretty grubby.

chakaping you should be ashamed of yourself

Following most money back to its source will leave you feeling pretty grubby.

Abso-****ing-lutely. I'd suggest that all those giving Innocent a hard time on this thread should have a look in their food cupboards and wardrobes and bike sheds and garages and living rooms - and then tell themselves that they have a square inch of moral high ground on the issue.

Just sounds like naive, sixth form, political angst.

[img] [/img][

So is NZCol a millionaire then?

Can't believe some of you are so bothered about this, if it means that much you should be growing your own fruit and making your own smoothies! Agree with trailmonkey completely here.

I don't think it's like that. I don't have any particular problem with Innocent except that I think they are guilty of greenwashing. I don't believe they ever set out to "do good things" - I think they set out to build a business and saw a way of jumping on the extremely-light-green bandwaggon - I would put them in a circle way outside of the executives who thought up Sunny Delight for example.

i thought this thread was gonna be about smee and singlespeeds! 😀

[i]sofatester - Member
Marketing = selling shit to idiots

Well, something like that anyway.[/i]

Abit like Ford, Volvo and VW sticking a badge, slight ECU remap (i.e. detune/make shitter/slower) and some plastic covers and hey presto! You have the Ecomatic and the dolphinlover etc. Selling same old but with conscience-saving badge to idiots (who probably traded in a 1yr old car at a huge loss to become 'greener').

Idiots and their money, parted company since the dawn of Marketing.

Green and Blacks pre Cadbury was decent chocolate. Now, it isn't, but you can buy it everywhere. Is that progress?

So, will Innocent now become 'A Bit Slutty'?

Sugary drinks company buys into other sugary drink company...I'll try to sleep tonight 🙄

Thought this was funny.

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/business/-innocent-sucks-coke-200904071687/ ]Daily mash[/url]

But Emma Gerving, a furious smoothie drinker from London, said: "It's really important to me that my fruit is mashed by the sort of people I would invite to a dinner party or go on a boating holiday with.

"From now on I will be boycotting Innocent until I forget what all of this was about."

If you want an eco smoothie the ingredients should have come no further than 10 miles

Turnip and Sprout smoothie anyone?

To answer the other question although someone already did. A company like ours (was) with 143 people needs a lot of $ on a monthly basis to service it. basically while the 4 was coming in the door there was always a slight delay , as in, sometimes contracts would be signed u plate, issue, late payment etc plus we invested in some gear that the services were starting to pay for but it had a lag of 4 months. So for a period of around 14 months we had to plug that hole. The company sold for $14M in cash which was distrubuted around the capitalist pig shareholders of which i was one.
Even now in a company with 8 people i still have to plug holes every now and then but nothing of the original scale and I would not do that again as it was too much stress for a wee biking person like me 🙂 For example i'm covering 18K at the moment that has been paid to contractors but the ultimate client cocked up the loading of the company into their FMIS system so they are at 7 weeks and counting for the invoices - it will come but for that period someone has to cover the gap. And business loans are impossible to get as ours was reversed with 24hr notice (500K).
FWIW i thin kinnocnet smoothies are hideous and as to whether I am a millionaire...who knows.

sorry i typed that on my blackberry quite badly but you get the gist !

mmmm, blackberry smoothie

JUST IN: COCA COLA BUYS OUT COLGATE!!!!!!!
(here is the proof)

[IMG] [/IMG]

😛

I still find it disappointing that more people are not aware of the horrors that Coke have been responsible for in both India and Columbia, their behavior has been inexcusable and I was genuinely disappointed by "Innocents" decision to go for the big money over their ethics.

I'm not a liberal. Nor am I bleeding heart. Nor have I ever been an activist or sixth former...

but I am opposed to inhumane behavior and should you be bothered?

perhaps you could educate yourself?

http://www.killercoke.org/

http://www.indiaresource.org/campaigns/coke/

coke is not good. oh the irony.

Not sure what the relvance of all the other non fmcg comparisons in this thread are about.

We're talking about a firm, who grew thanks to great marketing, with the pretence of a reasonably green viewpoint, marketing the positive health benefits of their (frankly overpriced) drinks.

You can't continue to maintain those credientials when associated with an outfit like Coca Cola. Some of the global manoevering and corruption of such a powerful marketing financial outfit is pretty much shooting yourself in the foot. You want to appeal to left wing greenies - dont do businesss with the likes of coca-cola. Stories of how they come down hard on unions in south america, creation of polluted water supplies in poor areas globally, ect ect mean innocent have lost all credibility with their market.

Still look at the brand P&J (Pete and Johnnies). They were a premium growth brand sold alongside Innocent. And then Pepsico bought them. And ran the brand into the ground and have now closed it.

The shame is I quite like the innocent drinks. I do the litle cartons as a portion of fruit after my cycle into work. I shall vote with my feet and work harder to make my own and have a home made one in a bottle instead.

And if I am replicated up and down the country, when premium soft drinks will be one of the marketing lines that go "soft" in a recession, then in 18m there will be no more Innocent. And for all those parents who struggled to get little Johnny to get his veg and fruit in without a fight, thats a shame.

“Oh, and BTW, until this announcement Innocent was a private company owned mainly by the founders with absolutely no obligation to seek the greatest return for shareholders i.e. growth wherever possible”

It doesn't matter that it wasn't publicly traded; each of the directors has a responsibility to all the other shareholders (even if they're BFFs with the shareholders). If you don't want to grow a business (or, rather, maximise shareholder value, which might be something different), then using a for-profit company structure isn't the right path for you.

"in 18m there will be no more Innocent. And for all those parents who struggled to get little Johnny to get his veg and fruit in without a fight, thats a shame. "

You Innocent bashers can't have it both ways - is Innocent just an evil greenwashing scam with clever marketing (the horror!), or was it a brave little juice company that was helping parents get their kids to eat fruit and that's turned its back on its principles for evil money? You can't sell out something that isn't there!

PS - I am slightly surprised that someone said that giving 10% of profits to charity is "just clever marketing". Do you tithe your wages? What more do you want from a fricking drinks company, blood?

I've always thought innocent are a bunch of tossers based on their holier than thou marketing. WTF is their 'village fair' for? It's a giant middle class circle w4nk. I'd much prefer to buy coke. If anything this has devalued the Coke brand for me - they're now assoicated with a bunch of patronising do gooders.

Good job I only drink coffee and water.

KB, actually I didn't use the word company until you did I talked about private business - but you're still wrong :D.