A responsible dog owner will have his/her dog under control at all times.
impossible I would say, a responsible dog owner will keep the dog away from people but if something goes wrong for any reason they will have had the dog socialized to an extent they at least dont have to worry about an attack. My dog's now 18 months old, she's pretty good, comes when called most of the time and certainly doesnt jump up at people or run up to them (unless they call her) but I was only able to train her like this because I accepted that a few errors would occur when she's young like the time she ran up to the women walking along waving a stick about, she screamed and then tried to run off, baby Lurcher in hot pursuit of the stick still in her hand. Not good and I felt terrible but it was all a learning experience for the dog, not all people waving sticks want to play. It was also a case where a bit of knowledge from the stick waver would have been good for her. If your terrified of dogs even puppies dont walk around a park waving sticks about.
So you find it impossible to keep your dog under control at all times?
People shouldn't wave sticks in public lest they get attacked by a dog?
Not making a good case for responsible dog ownership there buddy.
So you find it impossible to keep your dog under control at all times?
is it possible to keep any living thing under control at all times?
People shouldn't wave sticks in public lest they get attacked by a dog?
is hardly what I wrote and she was a 15 week old puppy at the time.
not sure this running up to you should induce proper full on screaming.
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anagallis_arvensis - Member
Tootall, I was intrigued by you saying that if you saw a dog of lead you put yours on. With mine in those circumstances I leave her off lead. In fact on some occasions if she's on the lead and I see a dog that looks like it might be a bit agro off lead I'll let her off too. She wont fight unless cornered and can out run most dogs easily, then I saw yours was a Rottie, is it because yours will get into scraps?
I'm with Tootall on this one, Molly goes on her lead if she is approached or in the vicinity of any other dogs. I get fed up with her being pestered by the "oh, he's OK" brigade, fine, Molly is OK too, but she's a staffie, so if your dog pisses her off enough and she goes for it, she is likely to win, guess who will be seen to be the baddy? So rather than let a stupid situation like that occur I'd rather make sure it didn't. BTW, I do have a number 1 haircut to disguise some bloody horrible scars on my head, oddly having a lot of scars on the scalp doesn't look as bad with almost zero hair! Go-on, stereotype me!
I'm with Tootall on this one, Molly goes on her lead if she is approached or in the vicinity of any other dogs. I get fed up with her being pestered by the "oh, he's OK" brigade, fine, Molly is OK too, but she's a staffie, so if your dog pisses her off enough and she goes for it, she is likely to win, guess who will be seen to be the baddy?
makes sense, I suppose I've always had dogs that were runners rather than fighters...
Glad you are able to see it that way, though I might take umbrage at her being called a fighter! I'll accept the use of the phrase in it's historical sense for the breed, and for some of the breed nowadays, but not for Moll as an individual dog.
Rio - Member
"Interesting link - so 18 people have been killed by by cows in 8 years, and the main cause according to the article is provocation by dogs. In this particular case I'd say the problems are firstly the owners, then the dogs, and only finally the cows which are protecting their offspring.
c.f. 5 children killed in the last 5 years by dogs according to a pro-dog web site that seems to have some very sensible views on dog control."
Ask yourself the same question about what triggered the dog attacks. Some are unprovoked, many aren't. I know some people don't like it but the fact is that often being bitten by a dog is very much the equivalent of getting burned because you put your hand in a fire, just like being crushed by a cow is often the equivalent of doing something daft.
Elsewhere in the thread people have said "You don't know a dog will act in extremis". And that's absolutely true, and absolutely irrelevant. You don't muzzle all dogs because of how they might act in extremis, you just don't put them in that situation. Most humans will attack if provoked correctly, you don't treat them all as dangerous because of what they can be provoked into.
"to the idiot who say's Akita's have a decent temperamant."
That would be me. You obviously know ****-all about Akitas but it'd be nice if you at least bothered to find a link that supported your argument, did you even read it yourself before you posted it?
I might take umbrage at her being called a fighter!
what I mean is when push comes to shove a staffie wont run whereas my lurcher will and not much will catch her either!!
I agree with the cow thing being quite funny thing to look at because the vast majority of cows really arent that dangerous (bulls another matter of course) like most dogs. Follow a few simple rules and cows wont hurt you. Well apart from the stupid example that stood on my foot once
the fact is that often being bitten by a dog is very much the equivalent of getting burned because you put your hand in a fire,
I think the difference is that whereas the effect of the flame is simple, known, predictable and consistent, the behaviour of a dog is complex and unpredictable. Some gestures may trigger an attack from some dogs, others may not. Different dogs react differently. It is not reasonable to imagine that a stranger will know the personality of every dog they meet. You may know what spooks your dog. I do not. It represents to me a danger of being bitten which I am unable to judge very accurately. That makes me scared (which itself provokes dogs) and liable to take defensive action that you may not understand or agree with.
I would chop the heads off all dog owners and feed them to their dogs.
Then I'd go dogging on my mountain bicycle.
It is Friday night after all.
DrJ - Member
"I think the difference is that whereas the effect of the flame is simple, known, predictable and consistent, the behaviour of a dog is complex and unpredictable. Some gestures may trigger an attack from some dogs, others may not."
I'm not talking about gestures here, I've only know one kid personally who was attacked by a dog and tbh, if I'd been the dog I'd have bitten him too. Approaching an angry or territorial dog is a good way to get bit, failing to respond to a warning from a dog is another, and quite often with kids its rough handling or other daft behavior. Young kids don't know better of course but just like owners should look out for their dogs, parents should look out for their kids. I've only ever known one person to be badly bitten, it was a fairly young (10 year old) boy and if I'd been the dog, I'd have bitten him too.
Not to say that this is always the case of course- but people are quick to make excuses when it suits them while depicting other situations as black and white. Anyone got any idea how many of the fatal dog attacks was 100% "one sided"?
Ask yourself the same question about what triggered the dog attacks. Some are unprovoked, many aren't.
They're all provoked in some way; animals rarely act on a whim. However, it's unreasonable to expect everyone to know what provokes a particular dog to attack. On one memorable occasion I was accused by a dog owner of provoking his dog to bite me on the leg because I didn't stop running in its presence, and it always liked to attack runners (silly me for not realising that). Given that, it's perfectly reasonable for me to regard all dogs as dangerous animals.
At the end of the day it comes down to control; if you don't know what provokes your dog, don't take it out in public unless its on a lead. And I suspect very few dog owners know what would actually provoke their dog.
I'd gesture to the dog, then when it came up to me, just chop its head off with my gnarly hope mini mono rotor.
Then I'd learn to keep my dog/kids on a leash (yes, kids, on those daft harness things) and realise I'm not the centre of the earth, nor is my kid/dog and just learn to be courteous.
Can't we all just get along?
Can't we all just get along?
New to this forum?
Haha, yeah, how could you guess? It's all very serious isn't it? Plus no-one seems to like mountain bikes... 😆
I've no idea how you control the situation but any dog that looks like a rottweiler / ___ bull terrier should be confiscated on sight and killed regardless of the owner
Pr1ck. You should've stopped after "I've no idea" because you clearly haven't.
It's all very serious isn't it?
Only when discussing dogs, politics or tyres. 🙂
Anyone who looks like a Rottweiler or ___bull terrier should be chopped up and turned into dog food. In my opinion. IMHO to all those people who don't read words. Is it 'Humble' or 'Honest', I get confused easily?
What's the best Conservative tyre to run dogs over with?
Approaching an angry or territorial dog is a good way to get bit, failing to respond to a warning from a dog is another,
How am I supposed to recognise that? And if hte dog thinks that "its territory extends onto the public footpath?
and quite often with kids its rough handling or other daft behavior. Young kids don't know better of course but just like owners should look out for their dogs, parents should look out for their kids. I've only ever known one person to be badly bitten, it was a fairly young (10 year old) boy and if I'd been the dog, I'd have bitten him too.
So if a child is annoying, it's OK for them to be assaulted by a dog?
I had resisted the TJ-esque approach of quoting the law of the land - party because I assumed that dog owners would have at least an awareness. Quite a few on here evidently don't.....
[url= http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/HomeAndCommunity/InYourHome/AnimalsAndPets/Dogs/DG_180008 ]Govt website explaining dog control[/url]
[i]It is an offence to allow a dog of any type or breed to be dangerously out of control.
What is 'out of control'?
Your dog is dangerously out of control if it:
* injures a person, or
* behaves in a way that makes a person worried that it might injure them - even if it's the dog owner's own home or garden.
A court could judge that your dog is dangerously out of control if:
* it injures another person's animal
* the owner of the animal thinks they could be injured if they tried to stop your dog attacking their animal
Anyone can report a dog and their owner to the police.
If you are found guilty of having a dog that's out of control you may face a fine of up to £1000 and/or imprisonment. You may also not be allowed to own a dog in the future.[/i]
So, whether your dog is 'out of control' isn't actually your perception - it is that of those around you. You will, of course, argue the law is an ass. However, it is the law and not really your call to make. Do the right thing and control your dog.
Plus no-one seems to like mountain bikes..
Oh yes! clearly new to the forum, mountain bike ffs!!!!???****!
I've done some reading since yesterday to try and understand, what I consider to have been a gross over reaction on the part of many, and the insults just confirm the inability to argue logically, regarding the slapping of I'm scared of Zulu's children.
Slapping IS an offence and IS assault, but a slap to give a child a warning is not the same as a slap to batter a child, OK. A slap which would leave a lasting mark or draw blood is different from a slap to shock the child. And I think that the Police would NOT act in the scenario I was talking about, so technically an offence, but not worth bothering with. A bit like doing 32mph in a 30mph zone and we all know how people like to break this law and get away without paying the fine or getting the points, or the how do I get away without paying this fine brigade??
I have also read that pushing someone is assault, rush hour on the Underground must be a lawyers dream. 🙄
As a child I received many slaps from teachers, as did others, NOT a problem.
I also know that teachers are restricted in what they can do with and to children. A falling child can not be caught or saved by a teacher just in case they touch the child inappropriately. In an attempt to stop a girl falling you try to catch her, one hand grabs her shoulder the other grabbs the breast area. One face plant and huge dental bill saved and one teacher put on the sex offenders list!!!
Young boy cuts himself on the upper thigh and is bleeding heavily, teacher must find an accomanying adult before applying dressing to act as a witness so as to avoid any accusations from the parents.
Thank you for saving my little Jeremy/Harriet, NO! How much can we get for suing the L.A.? YES! CRAZY!
And I think that has been demonstrated here, I said "slap" and you saw "batter" and court case money and I really don't think you can see a relationship between a failure in disciplining children and the social problems in the UK.
The End.
When I approach people I call my dog to heel, if there are small or noisy children waving sticks she goes on the lead. She doesn't chase joggers, cyclists, old people, fat people or any other people. As a dog owner I'm not fussed about being approached by friendly dogs, but appreciate many people don't want this and they are entitled not to be bothered, no matter how friendly.
As I have posted previously I used to be very frightened of dogs, but since having my own puppy it has transformed my life. Having a dog means you spend lot's of time exposed to other dogs and I now realise it was ignorance which caused my fear. On occasion I will be wary of a dog, but only when the dog is behaving aggresively. On approaching an unknown dog mine goes on the lead, this is to put others at ease and because I don't know how the other dog will behave. If the other dog is off lead and not showing any warning signs I will leave mine off lead. They will then say hello to each other, maybe play or maybe just ignore each other.
My dog is a mastiff cross and people are sometimes wary, but usually copmplement me on my beautiful dog. Given my dogs and maybe my own appearence I always make a point of smiling and saying hello to pretty much everyone we pass. It is amazing the difference it makes, but I often find myself chatting to little old ladies for ages when they realise I'm not a dog wielding mugger.
So.. keep your dogs under control, pick up after them, say hello to people, slow down on your bike when you pass, say thankyou and don't let you child poke my dog with a stick.
DrJ - Member
"So if a child is annoying, it's OK for them to be assaulted by a dog?"
Yeah, that's exactly what I said 🙄 If a child is allowed to run into traffic you don't blame the driver that hits them. If a child is allowed to mistreat or provoke a dog, you blame the dog. Apparently.
I wonder how many of the people who'd call for more bans and routine muzzling have used the words "nany state" in the past? To me it's all part of the psychosis of expecting perfect safety, and of parents who expect their kids to be protected from all harm whether they can be bothered to do that themselves or not, and who want the government to legislate away all risks for them. The incidence of serious dog attacks as we've shown up the page is low (despite absurd claims to the contrary, we never did heat more about the 250,000 dog bites a year) and the incidence of fatalities though tragic is negligible.
On the subject of provocation and on the back of comments like "They're all provoked in some way; animals rarely act on a whim,"
I was bitten as a child. I was playing on the swings, minding my own business, and a girl turned up with a small / young dog which came running at me barking in a Jack Russell stylee. She yelled to me "it's ok, he doesn't bite." Unsure because of the aggression, I stopped still and watched it as it ran to me and then sank it's teeth in my leg. Cue a trip to A&E for a tetanus shot.
Now, if you want to argue technicalities it could perhaps be said that I "provoked" it by being on the swings or being scared or something. But as far as I'm concerned that was an unprovoked attack; the dog was aggressive and out of control, I didn't torment it or try to run away or do anything much at all other than ignore it.
Perhaps "most" attacks are provoked, I don't know. But I'd argue strongly that "all" of them aren't.
"Perhaps "most" attacks are provoked, I don't know. But I'd argue strongly that "all" of them aren't."
Yup, I'd completely agree. I don't even know if most are, numbers aren't really available. We can be sure some are, using Singletrack Statistical Evidence the two dog attacks I've ever known of were both provoked by the victim, which proves that all dog attacks everwhere are 😉 But I think saying all are is just daft frankly.
So a summary thus far might read:
Some dog owners appear reasonable, some are clearly morons.
Some non-dog owners appear reasonable, others are morons.
I guess life goes on...
This would massively DECREASE the stupid and thoughtless abuse perpetrated on defenceless dogs every day by ignorant, ****less owners.
However, as most Britons seem to have the same blinkered, outdated and illogical attitude toward dogs that Americans display toward firearms, it's sadly never going to happen.Good on you for having the courage to say it.
Let's see how many genuinely responsible STW dog owners are prepared to agree with you.
As a dog owner, and I hope a reasonably responsible one, I do agree with you and the guy you quoted. Just this thursday evening, up at my local spot with my dog and club mates riding. We were taking a quick break, refueling, my dog sat in the middle of the group and some chavs staffy come running over and went straight for my dogs throat. A completely unprovoked attack. The other dogs owner didn't seem slightest bit bothered, the dog had no collar on and got a good kick from me and as I tried to pull it away.
I didn't get any acknowledgement from the other dogs owner or response from him. Needless to say he fitted the typecast of a staffy owner to a t, a proper chav. If I see him there again I will be reporting him and his dog to the police.
Its the poor dog owners like this guy who give the rest of us a bad name. Bringing in a licence for dog owners might at least help keep some of the less responsible ****s away from dog ownership, not too mention the amount of dogs in rescue homes that end having to be put down. The problem will be policing it.
we never did heat more about the 250,000 dog bites a year
ok, let's hear about it now with some back-of-a-fag-packet calculations. I've seen various figures quoted around the 200,000-250-000 mark. If we take as a ball-park figure that the UK population is about 50M then that would mean the average person can expect to get bitten by a dog every 200 years or so. There's a question over what constitutes "bitten" - what for some is "just a friendly nip, he's only playing, if he meant it he'd have your leg off" is for others a scary experience of being bitten by a potentially dangerous animal. But if I ignore those and just go by my personal experience, I can think of 4 occasions where I have been bitten hard enough to leave a mark or damage clothing - the sort of things that might be regarded as an assault if a person did them. So either I've been incredibly unlucky or that figure of 250,000 is not unreasonable.
Edit: or I'm 800 years old. I feel it sometimes. 😕
Yeah, that's exactly what I said If a child is allowed to run into traffic you don't blame the driver that hits them. If a child is allowed to mistreat or provoke a dog, you blame the dog. Apparently.
Cool. So if you annoy me by, say, talking in a funny accent, or wearing socks with sandals, or whatever, then it's OK for me to respond by beating you round the skull with a baseball bat. "I was provoked, yer 'onner".
As long as that's straight ...
If we take as a ball-park figure that the UK population is about 50M then that would mean the average person can expect to get bitten by a dog every 200 years or so. There's a question over what constitutes "bitten" - what for some is "just a friendly nip, he's only playing, if he meant it he'd have your leg off" is for others a scary experience of being bitten by a potentially dangerous animal.
And why restrict ourselves to biting? Is it not sufficient to have been scared by an aggressive dog? I have never been bitten, but I have been scared shitless by agressively barking dogs on a number of occasions. Why is that OK?
won`t somebody think of the children 😯
I have been scared shitless by agressively barking dogs on a number of occasions. Why is that OK?
because your a big girl? 
I have been scared shitless by agressively barking dogs on a number of occasions. Why is that OK?
You're not expecting a serious answer to that are you - it's such a subjective question that it's impossible for someone to answer. For all we know you have a serious phobia about dogs, or maybe you were right to be concerned.
As a complete tangent, I can only think of one occassion when one of my dogs has ever bitten someone. Dog kept licking himself and I spotted some blood coming from the tip of his penis, so took him to the vet to get it checked. Told the vet - "I think he's cut his penis, at which the vet decided she should pull back the dog's foreskin in a very brisk fashion to get a better look. Cue the appearance of a nasty flappy slice in the dog's bell end, and the dog sinking his teeth into the vet's hand.
In his defence, I did point out to the vet that if she'd pulled back my foreskin like that, I'd have bitten her as well.
DrJ - Member
"Cool. So if you annoy me by, say, talking in a funny accent, or wearing socks with sandals, or whatever, then it's OK for me to respond by beating you round the skull with a baseball bat. "I was provoked, yer 'onner"."
I don't think there's any way you can genuinely be misunderstanding the argument here this badly
