[Closed] Another incident in France. Hostages taken and shots fired.

You know Yunki, despite the fact that if they did take Syria and Iraq the simple fact that they thrive on chaos to survive and pull in more supporters means that they would carry on targeting Europe and at greater rates.

TomW1967; would you care to answer the question I asked you please.

lazybike - Member

I'm a bit confused...why are we so threatened by an islamic state?

We're not threatened specifically by the idea of an islamic state. We're threatened by this attempt at an islamic state because it's all quite explodey and awful.

I never offered any opinion on the wearing/banning of religious dress or symbols. So quite how you've come to the conclusion that I'm 'another example of the regressive left who suffer from the racism of low expectations', I have no idea. Would you care to explain as to why you came to this particular conclusion? It does strike me as rather judgmental.

Because it wasn't an insight, it was apologetics.

Integration. These people do not wish to be integrated into our Western liberal society in any way. We live in a free society, we cannot and should not force them to integrateq. However, we do require them to obey the law, our law. If they don't wish to do that there is a long list of countries who do mirror more closely their values

A note on the German bar bomber. A friend of his has said he was unhappy at being deported to Bulgaria as it "is a poor country". That seemed to be enough to cause him to want to kill as many people as possible.

Why shouldn't we Jamby? You don't have to force them so to speak. As the ****stani researcher pointed out, if we targeted the parents - through for example - setting up parenting classes and teaching them European values and why their children are being radicalised by their own values and why this is unacceptable to us.

But of course, there will be those moaning that "oh I/he/she feels offended by you assuming my children will become radicalised"

"Because it wasn't an insight, it was apologetics."

Oh it was, was it? I see.

I thought it was perhaps best to try to understand the root of the anger and hatred that compels individuals to commit such vile atrocities. And rather than simply taking things at face value, and allowing oneself to be caught up in hysterical knee-jerking, which achieves precisely nothing but perpetuating the status quo, or even worsening it.

Rather than sitting there twitching with rage against this demonic 'other', I chose instead, to try to become better informed on the situation faced by many Muslim people in France, and to try to find out about their views, rather than remain ignorant. Having had a number of conversations with French Muslims over the years, it's clear that there has been a growing problem in France, of minorities feeling increasingly oppressed, harassed and demonised, sometimes to the point of violence. That this has not happened in isolation, but rather in response to a huge increase in attacks on Muslims, particularly women and children, and given France's unenviable colonial past, I personally feel that these issues must be given very careful consideration and thought, if any positive progression is to be made.

This aproach, in your mind, is apparently 'apologist'. Interesting.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/22/frances-headscarf-war-attack-on-freedom

"These people"

"our"

" We "

"our law"

"they"

"their values"

.

Right lads, I'm going to start a new religion. We are going to ban beer,bacon and scantily clad ladies.
Any takers?
How the **** did it get so popular?

Except your "understanding" is a shallow and bien pensant understanding of the situation that very few people haven't already read somewhere. Everyone knows about the Niqab ban, everyone knows about social inequality in France - neither are good enough explanations for the violence that we are seeing now. As I've said before, other people, cultures and societies have gone through periods of low level oppression without resorting to such violence. My link to the interview with the well regarded ****stani researcher proves that there is more going on than a simple "they feel aggrieved because they are (insert excuse here)"

. It doesn't have much to do either with poverty or social status. A lot of people tend to believe, specifically in the Muslim community, that it's social status that drives radicalisation. Well that's not true at all. Radicalisation is really about the identity crisis and how that triggers a lot of these kids into questioning why they are here, what they want to do.

Tom_W1987 - Member

So jimjam, should European women put headscarves on because they don't conform to Muslim standards of dress for women? Was it their fault for being stabbed?

sarcasm Tom.

I did suspect Poe's law - but you rather cryptically linked to that article after I mentioned it.

I missed that.

The situation in France is out of control.

No it isn't.

These people do not wish to be integrated into our Western liberal society in any way.

However, we do require them to obey the law, our law. If they don't wish to do that there is a long list of countries who do mirror more closely their values

You don't have to force them so to speak. As the ****stani researcher pointed out, if we targeted the parents - through for example - setting up parenting classes and teaching them European values

I get your point but it that not a bit of cultural imperialism. They have a culture we have a culture. However ours is best so do that and ignore yours. Its unlikely to be effective.

and why their children are being radicalised by their own values and why this is unacceptable to us.

I get your broad point and i see what you mean. Hopefully you see what i mean. We cannot really force them to be western liberals- tbh its a bit of an oxymoron anyway. I see why it would be advantageous if we could.

"Except your "understanding" is a shallow and bien pensant understanding of the situation "

Very good. I had to google 'bien pensant', as I'm not fluent in French. 🙂

I still have absolutely no idea what you're waffling on about though. You seem to have even reinforced my own position on things:

"Radicalisation is really about the identity crisis and how that triggers a lot of these kids into questioning why they are here, what they want to do."

And why do you think this 'identity crisis' is happening?

"I did suspect Poe's law"

It's really quite amusing how you imagine yourself to be more intelligent than you display on here.

We are going to ban beer,bacon and scantily clad ladies.
Any takers?

Bagsy being the prophet though

Secularism in France. Its fundamental to their society. You cannot have a religious wedding ceremony until after a secular town hall service, it isn't just that the secular one is the legally recognised one it has to take place first. Wearing of headscarves, long dresses, covered arms. This is allowed amd widely practiced. What you cannot do legally is cover your face. Now as I understand it the covering of the faces of women is quite rare in Morocco / Tunisia and Algeria - the countries of origin on many French muslims. As such I don't see "secularism" as being the cause of these terrorist attacks.

Social issues. France has Europe's largest muslim population and one of (if not) the most generous welfare states. The two Charlie Ebdo killers where brought up as orphans by the state who provided them with everything. With a large ethnic population they have every chance to feel part of a multi-cultural nation

Bagsy being the prophet though

Instant fatwa there 😯

BTW "these people" refers to the terroorists and is in responce to the many posters her who have suggested "lack of integration" is the cause. It isn't the cause its a symptom of their ideology. They are choosing not to integrate.

Bagsy being the prophet though

Aren't you a vegetablist, Junky?

FALSE PROPHET!

@clod - it is them and us, we who obey the laws of our country and are proud to be citizens and celebrate our liberal western values. Let me help you with a translation.

"These people" - terrorist
"our" - citizens of the United Kingdom of all ethnicities
" We "
"our law" - the law of the UK made by, belonging to and applied to all UK citizens
"they" - the terrorists
"their values" - sharia law

[i]Them[/i]

[i]Us[/i]

.

And why do you think this 'identity crisis' is happening?

Because of their parents retreat into ultra-orthodox views, quite possibly the niqab laws, our failure to sell previous interventionist policies in the right light (like we did with Kosovo) but not social inequality.

I get your point but it that not a bit of cultural imperialism. They have a culture we have a culture. However ours is best so do that and ignore yours. Its unlikely to be effective.

I'm inclined to agree Junkyard. What worries me is that the Muslim community are going to be too slow in perceiving this and reacting to what will end up being a threat to their own existence within Europe. If they don't wake up, with the way things are going with Trump and Brexit we'll see mainstream calls for internment etc within a decade.

"Because of their parents retreat into ultra-orthodox views"

So why might that be happening?

Quite literally - because they aren't used to alcohol, scantily clad women and various other western excesses that they don't want their children to partake in.

And no before you say it, it has nothing to do with Iraq - these views were being imparted before then.

Right lads, I'm going to start a new religion. We are going to ban beer,bacon and scantily clad ladies.
Any takers?
How the **** did it get so popular?

because its ok to blow shit up apparently 😕

So why might that be happening?

Because there's a global race (with arms) between various factions each of whom is seeking to be more pious / pure to the written word of their religion than the others.

And this is resulting in increasingly extreme acts to prove said purity - and anyone who objects is automatically judged to be less pure / a less committed believer. This is why there's a consistent pattern of increasingly extreme violence across most of the middle east and increasingly Africa - in upwards of 50+ countries now.

The parents / older generations are complicit in this in many European countries by setting the expectations that their children should norm to the "traditions" of their original homelands / places the kids have never been to in many cases rather than norm to the society in which they now live.

I have a number of friends who have experienced this sort of family "tension" and it's extremely difficult for the children to deal with without falling victim to "honour" issues, being ostracised. In many cases they can't maintain any kind of contact with the world outside of their religious community unless this takes place without the knowledge of elders.

This is so simple that it's quite childish - but if parents loosened up their views towards alcohol - if I knew more Muslim lads (despite living in London) who felt okay to come out and have a few drinks with a bunch of white men and women. Do you think the world might be a better place? Once the barriers are removed for socialisation, then people remember that most humans are alright.

But it's always a sticking point, the amount of times I've worked with colleagues who didn't want to come out because "alcohol" - despite our best attempts at saying we don't mind if they don't drink - or even offering not to drink....it's just a little sad.

Ahhhh well.....replace bar with forum.

This is so simple that it's quite childish - but if parents loosened up their views towards alcohol - if I knew more Muslim lads (despite living in London) who felt okay to come out and have a few drinks with a bunch of white men and women. Do you think the world might be a better place? Once the barriers are removed for socialisation, then people remember that most humans are alright.

"This is so simple that it's quite childish - but if parents loosened up their views towards alcohol - if I knew more Muslim lads (despite living in London) who felt okay to come out and have a few drinks with a bunch of white men and women. Do you think the world might be a better place?"

Oh undoubtedly.

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Yeah, I'm so sad that the worst excess of our own culture is binge drinking.

In no way and at no time have I felt threatened or even uncomfortable.

That wasn't the point I was making, harking back to the interview I posted - liberalising attitudes towards drinking would could go someway towards reducing feelings of alienation. At the same time, it would go a long way towards exposing British people to Muslims.

You really think that's the 'worst excess' of UK culture? 😯

So; you've accused me of being an 'apologist' (for what exactly, I'm not sure), yet have so far failed to explain why. And seem to have reduced things to 'Muslims should come and drink beer and then they'd be ok'.

😕

Again because social status has no impact on radicalisation - hence why I accused you of being an apologist, you were effectively victim blaming. Besides authorities in their field believing this, neither does blaming violent radicalisation on social status gel with the hundreds of years of mostly peaceful black rights movements in the US.

And no, don't mention the Black Panthers - they weren't really comparable to ISIS in scale or intent.

Bagsy being the prophet though
Instant fatwa there

What wearies you my child?

Is it facts, the burden of STW omnipotence or is it how shite Spurs are 😉

Terrorist had been turned back by Turkey on his way to fight with IS in Syria. France had imprisoned him and gave him an electronic tag and a curfew. Not a great success that.

From the Guardian / BFMTV a French news channel

According to BFMTV, one of the two killers, as yet unnamed, lived in Saint-Étienne-du-Rouvray and had tried to travel to fight in Syria in 2015 but had been sent back by Turkish border authorities and jailed in France. He was released in March this year despite the protests of prosecutors, had an electronic tag that allowed authorities to monitor his movements, and was ordered to live at his parents’ home - near the church in Saint-Etienne-du-Rouvray - where the court ordered he was only allowed out between 8.30am and 12.30pm.

Oooh, it must have been because they hurt his feelings by tagging him.

" you were effectively victim blaming"

Ooh, here we go. Victim blaming as well as being an 'apologist'. Double whammy. 😆

You're funny Tom.

Anyone see that unreported world piece on the fighting in tripoli?

now that is just plain tribalism..

I can't remember the two factions.. sunni and one I've not heard of
One tribe drank and the women wore western dress, the others were a bit more strict but they had lived as neighbours for years and ate and socialised together..
Until the war in Syria broke out and they started arguing about... guess what?

Politics!!

Now they shoot each other from their houses across the street on the daily..
Gangs from each tribe venture into the other tribe's territory to perform kneecappings..

they school their 5 year old children in how to strip and reassemble heavy machine guns and the kids can't wait to be big enough to start shooting the neighbours..

And this is all taking place in the city centre amongst people who used to be friends and accept each other's differences
It's a good watch and offers a bit of a different insight into the motivation behind the aggression in Lebanon, Syria and beyond

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/jun/30/panderingtocrackpots

8)

From our very own Guardian - still think you're guilty of the same low expectations.

It's ok Tom; I won't pander to you.

[quote> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/jun/30/panderingtocrackpots

8)
How can you educate these bigots if you don't talk to them? The point of posting the article is lost on me Tom.
8)

The point of posting the article is lost on me Tom.

Mostly as a wind up, if he doesn't get that Asians and Blacks who have been through economic and social hardship and not had their brothers and sisters blow themselves up as a result - might find the economic and social argument insulting - then that is his problem.

Mostly as a wind up

http://www.spiked-online.com/spiked-review/article/generation-jihadi-olivier-roy-isis-daesh/18504#.V5eYMVUrKUk

Genuinely interesting piece to read, especially when you put this

Jihadis don’t hate their parents, but they reverse their relationship with their parents. The boy says to his mother, ‘I have the truth, and you don’t have the truth. I am your teacher.’ And, ‘I will die before you, to save you’. So it’s a reversal of the generational link.

In the context of the interview I posted earlier.

HUSSAIN NADIM: And it's very hard for them to fit in. I mean, look at what the basic problem with the Muslim community over here is. The parents want to teach their children to stay away from certain evils of what they see as the Western society - stay away from alcohol, stay away from dating. That's not what they see as a Muslim culture. So they - in order to attempt to that, the Muslim parents convert - teach these kids very ultra-conservative ideology of Islam. Now, when they grow up and they go to the universities or schools, that's where they see their ideology and their teachings coming head-on with the Australian culture. [b]And then they question their parents, that they were taught about this certain thing, but this is not how it is. And then they look for answers and the way they find their answers is not through parents. [/b]They look for the answers on social media and that social media has a monopoly of the religious radicals as well.