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I don't think you need to go. You had some good input.
How about, we try and put our money where our mouths are and all try to find common ground in this discussion. That might give us all some hope. I'm looking at you as well Ernie, Benos had a valid point - let's not resort to bad faith arguments.
Whilst I believe Ernielynch’s comments are perhaps rather brusque, I really don’t see any actual anti-Semitic sentiment or rhetoric in them.
I thought I was quite pro-jewish, no? I don't think anyone else has repeatedly brought up the horrific crimes committed by Europeans against Jews.
And no one bangs on more than me about opposition to Israeli government policies from Jews, especially American Jews. One link making that point I have posted about 3 three times. I have posted about Jewish Holocaust survivor Alf Dubs holding a Free Palestine placard twice.
I find to even question whether I am anti-sematic bizarre. But I am hardly unique - just look at what UK politicians such as Suella Braverman and Keir Starmer are saying.
I know that the lazy response to criticism of Israel is allegations of anti-semitism, but the Jewish people are not the problem. Racism and injustice is.
The point is Ernie, you brought up a historical injustice that cannot be fully solved. It only contributes and fuels grievance, peace talks need to move on from it. It's not a position that is taken in good faith.
People will accuse you if anti-Semitism at that point - and I think it's telling that it came from someone who is likely more moderate than me.
The point is Ernie, you brought up a historical injustice that cannot be fully solved. It only contributes and fuels grievance, peace talks need to move on from it. It’s not a position that is taken in good faith.
But that historical injustice is the root of the inhumanity we're seeing unfold. No progression can be made without considering the rights of Palestinians to their own homeland, and self-determination as a people. To say we need to 'move on' is to ignore that, and excuse the oppression that has existed for many decades. If people keep ignoring history, then they are doomed to repeat its failings.
One last comment:
“Between 1947 and 1949, about 750,000 Palestinians out of a population of 1.9 million were expelled from their towns and villages to make way for the new Jewish immigrants.”
The Arab groups and neighbouring countries rejected the 1947 UN plan, which Jewish groups had accepted, and chose instead to wage war for it all. They lost. No prizes for what guessing what would've happened if they'd won.
What really matters now isn't the past but the future. But if you are going to make it about the past, please do it in good faith.
Golda Meir said in the 60’s (I’m undoubtedly misquoting ) If the Palestinians laid down their guns, there’d be peace, If the Israelis did the same, there’d be no Israel.
Quoting Golda Meir is really not a way to advance this discussion. For balance, she also said:
“There were no such thing as Palestinians, when was there an independent Palestinian people with a Palestinian state? … It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist,”
The destruction of the Jewish state of Israel and going back to a pre-Israeli state of some kind is not "self-determination", it it is a bad faith idea that would only lead to the expulsion of Jews from Israel.
All you are doing by advancing this idea is legitimising the goals of Hamas.
If you want peace, there needs to be more realism/practicality and less entrenchment and than this.
If people keep ignoring history, then they are doomed to repeat its failings.
Well in this case both parties keep refering to their history and it doesn't seem to be going too well.
Ding ding, we have a winner Mando.
However, both Hamas and Bibi need to go for peace. Im afraid it's going to be war first and perhaps peace after, if Hamas can actually be pushed out. I can't see it happening whilst they or Bibi are at the table.
If people keep ignoring history, then they are doomed to repeat its failings.
Oh no one is ignoring history, it's just that some people are selective about what history they want to remember.
From them the situation in Palestine 75 years ago isn't important, in contrast what is important for them is the situation in Judea two thousand years ago.
It is used to justify someone from New York kicking out a Palestinian from his home in the Occupied West Bank.
In fact it forms the very basis of their argument.
Israel needs to be dismantled, called Majungamabingyland and a secular government that rules for all needs to be put in it’s place...A religion doesn’t deserve a homeland. By all means keep the name Israel if you must – but what HAS to happen is the separation of church and state.
The way you get to this kind of position is by:
1) denying the existence of Jews as a people (as opposed to merely a religious congregation)
2) being convinced that Israel is some kind of theocracy
3) ignoring the lessons of history about what happens when Jews are a minority relying on the goodwill of others for their safety
4) being completely convinced of one's own correctness from afar, when practically no-one in Israel or Palestine actually wants to live in a binational state
NK is that they regularly turn up at pro-Palestinian rallies and demonstrations, and are welcomed by ignorant and naive people who see them as ‘nice Jews’ who are opposed to the oppression of the Palestinian people...See them as like something like the BNP or Britain First etc
They are such an outlier, it is a bit like illustrating the views of British BAME people using the example of Lawrence Rustem, the half-Turkish BNP candidate. Like, technically maybe, but, you know...
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/jul/22/race.world1
Most of the countries in the region are. Iraq -1932, Syria -1941, Lebanon -1920, Saudi Arabia -1932, to name a few, why single out Israel?
@nickc - because it's the topic and hand and because they're running an apartheid state which is currently collectively punishing over 2 million people having turned off their water.
If denying babies water is an acceptable form of coercion by a nuclear-armed state then maybe I'm just some tree-hugging hippy.
So, what is the worst case scenario here?
In the short term probably the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians from thirst, starvation or bombs dropping on them. In the medium term the West Bank rising up and war between Israel and Iran/Hezbollah. Given the mentality of the lunatics in the Israeli govt I wouldn’t put it past them to use a nuke or two.
which is currently collectively punishing over 2 million people having turned off their water.
I'm happy to condemn the the actions of the Israeli Govt, it has nothing to do with how old, or not it is as a country; in relation to your mum.
Given the mentality of the lunatics in the Israeli govt I wouldn’t put it past them to use a nuke or two.
You've been saying the same thing about Putin and Ukraine for months now, let's hope your prediction here is as accurate.
if Hamas can actually be pushed out. I can’t see it happening whilst they or Bibi are at the table.
But if Hamas is gone, who then do the Palestinian people look to for military support(Or protection) ? Certainly not the Israelis, nor western countries like the UK, US or Europe.
I'm sure Israel would love to see the back of Hamas, but would that in light of the actions taken not be detrimental to the Plight of the Palestinian people. I mean Israel has done nothing other than expel them and place them for the most part in a compound, under extremely oppressive conditions.
.
Incidentally welcome to the forum DancingKitty. It's good to have someone here who clearly has a lot of knowledge in this field, but Im sure what people would like to know are you still ok with 27.5, or is it 29er all the way.
I’m happy to condemn the the actions of the Israeli Govt, it has nothing to do with how old, or not it is as a country; in relation to your mum.
I illustrated the age point specifically because "history" is thrown up as a blocker to deny change. Desparately needed change.
That argument doesn't hold water.
It's an inherently unjust and discriminatory country. We need to change it. History should have no bearing on it.
Separate church and state. A secular country that governs for all.
Given the mentality of the lunatics in the Israeli govt I wouldn’t put it past them to use a nuke or two.
I would. Israel's nuclear weapons are their "Wonder Weapons" to be used as a last resort when everything else has failed and Israel is about to be overwhelmed by enemy forces, we are a very long way from that.
IMHO Israel's demise will be very slow, over a very long period of time, and its final collapse probably not more dramatic than the collapse of apartheid in South Africa.
The status of Israel's nuclear weapons is interesting imo. As far as I am aware Israel is the only country in the world which possess nuclear weapons but doesn't publicly admit to having any.
All other nuclear armed countries publicly boast of their possession of nuclear weapons because that is part of the deterrent appeal of having them.
Israel on the other hand doesn't see its nuclear weapons as simply a deterrent but also as an important weapon of last resort.
And of course their secret nuclear weapons arsenal means that it is not subject to international inspections or accusations of treaty violations....."we don't have any nuclear weapons, simples"
But if Hamas is gone, who then do the Palestinian people look to for military support(Or protection) ? Certainly not the Israelis, nor western countries like the UK, US or Europe.
Neither the Palestinians nor Israelis can expect others to protect them. Each needs its own homeland for security. The question is now whether two states are even viable now - and how many people would have to be moved in the process.
Hi Dyna-Ti.
Thanks for the welcome, I have mostly been a lurker!
I think the problem with that argument is that you are falling into the trap of Hamas = the Palestinian people. That is a dangerous road to go down and actually many in the West Bank, whilst being sympathetic to Hamas - would not state that Hamas represents them but Fatah's Palestinian Authority. Who are somewhat more pragmatic.
Fatah/The PA will be central to any peace negotiations and it's important that Israel keeps back channel dialogue open with them during this conflict.
Chevychase, yours is the opinion of a a privileged European - the middle east doesn't do secularism - most of the planet doesn't. Secularist pan Arab nationalism died a long time ago in a galaxy far far away - maybe in 50-100 years after the failure of political Islam it can be revived.
It's an idea that is as ill thought out as introducing democracy to Iraq. There is zero pragmatism in your argument, any one state solution will just lead to further expulsions, pogroms and bloodshed given the almost century old deep seated grievances.
Neither the Palestinians nor Israelis can expect others to protect them.
We4ll Israel has the US, and the UK, and maybe not so much the EU but on the other hand Palestinians have nobody. in that scenario that is. Israel has the vast majority of the land with their 7 million population spread well out, and the Palestinians hemmed in to a much smaller area, they also have a powerful military with all latest toys.
I think the problem with that argument is that you are falling into the trap of Hamas = the Palestinian people
Sorry I disagree. I know Hamas arent the Palestinian people and have said so throughout this thread. Its the same point that was made that the Tories arent the British people.
Hamas come from the Palestinian people mostly but their rise was an inevitability due to the oppressive regime of Israel.
I think we've seen that across time, more recently in South Africa with the formation of the ANC or even in Ireland with the IRA. Where there is oppression, an armed struggle arises.
Is Hamas that different to the Jewish Military Union ?
I think that comparison is a bit mad.
The Jewish Military Union didn't advocate for the genocide of Germans, in fact there were only a handful of Jews that did - the Nakam - who would be a much closer fit to Hamas. No one thought the Nakam were sensible or fit to be in a leadership position of the post-war Jewish diaspora.
I wonder if Chevychase has ever tried to be an ethnic minority, like a Baha’i, Druze or Christian in a Muslim country.
There's an interesting book by William Dalrymple (forget the title) about Christians in the Middle East. For a long time Iraq was one of the most accepting of countries. And Israel one of the least, eg systematically destroying Christian relics.
Yes - the baathists in Iraq and Syria were opposed to political Islam.
We bombed them and then tried to install secularist democracy.
Thanks for the welcome, I have mostly been a lurker!
You have been mostly lurking since you joined on Monday?
There’s an interesting book by William Dalrymple (forget the title) about Christians in the Middle East.
You're probably thinking of From the Holy Mountain. A great book. It's only from 1997 but really feels like a different age.
Chevychase, yours is the opinion of a a privileged European – the middle east doesn’t do secularism
And Israel can't be expected to have the same values as European countries?
Sure they can....
There’s an interesting book by William Dalrymple (forget the title) about Christians in the Middle East. For a long time Iraq was one of the most accepting of countries. And Israel one of the least, eg systematically destroying Christian relics.
The book is called From The Holy Mountain. I have it on a shelf somewhere. The stuff in bold is a bold assertion.
@dancingkitty:
the middle east doesn’t do secularism – most of the planet doesn’t
Yes. And look at the disgusting mess it's in. The middle east therefore needs to progress rather than mire itself in the disgusting pit of religious bigotry that the "privileged europeans" have managed to largely drag themselves out of, don't you think?
Yours is an argument for maintaining a medievel status quo. The sort of status quo that results in two million people being the subject of collective punishment from a criminal government propped up by the privileged west.
If Israel needs that propping up, the privileged west needs to demand the separation of church and state - instead of the continuing primacy of idiotic religious bigotry. And then the government can get on with governing for all.
If Israel needs that propping up, the privileged west needs to demand the separation of church and state
What is the established church in Israel?
Do you believe the Jews are just a bunch of people that have the same religion? Like Jehovahs Witnesses or Buddhists?
It’s an idea that is as ill thought out as introducing democracy to Iraq.
The problem was not trying to introduce democracy - the problem was trying to impose it from the outside using a bunch of stooges and having wilfully destroyed the institutions of the Iraqi administrative state. But that is another story.
And Israel can’t be expected to have the same values as European countries?
Sure they can….
No it can't, when none of the region ascribes to secularism. It would pose a security threat to Israel.
@Chevychase - the west props up plenty of countries that are not secularist. You are not being rational here but displaying the cultural arrogance of the early 2000s west, you cannot enforce secularism on the middle east - either on Jewish, Christian or Muslim populations. It doesn't work and any attempt to do this will limit western voices in the region will not be heard.
At the end of the day Israel has played it's cards well with Russia, India China - and could quite easily replace American support should it require. It's not 1967 anymore.
The problem was not trying to introduce democracy – the problem was trying to impose it from the outside using a bunch of stooges and having wilfully destroyed the institutions of the Iraqi administrative state.
No, the problem was we removed the last link to secularist Arab nationalism and upon removing them - unlike in Germany where we graded Nazis and their sympathisers using a 5 tier classification method and then ruthlessly denazified the country by levelling sanctions based on the classification of the individual.....we just let the majority of baathist leadership swan off into the distance to come back and haunt us or terrorise other Iraqi political players.
On top of that, we upset most of the other regional players.
@dancingkitty said: Thanks for the welcome, I have mostly been a lurker!
There’s something deeply suspicious about a brand new account diving right into one of the most contentious, political, off-topic threads on this forum.
@dancingkitty, you joined the forum 3 days ago and this is the only thread you've posted on. Forgive my scepticism, but we've had similar posters appear before and suddenly become prolific on political or other contentious threads who have turned out to be AI programs. What brought you to stw specifically?
No it can’t, when none of the region ascribes to secularism. It would pose a security threat to Israel.
Nonsense.
It doesn't need the "rest of the region" to ascribe to secularism. Israel needs fixing. Pointing at other countries and going "they're the same" does nothing to advance that.
That's the sort of bull that was spouted when we were trying to end apartheid in South Africa. But at least in SA they couldn't just turn off all the water on all the blacks like the Israeli government has decided to do.
Secularism is necessary advancement. If Israel wants to be anything other than a hateful pit of religious bigotry, then that's the way the cookie crumbles. The lack of secularism IS the security threat.
That's a piss poor deflection. Again. What brought you to stw specifically?
we just let the majority of baathist leadership swan off into the distance to come back and haunt us or terrorise other Iraqi political players.
Thats basically the exact opposite of what went wrong.
A whole lot of people were given the boot including losing pensions for being baathists from all parts of the public service including the military.
It was also done incompetently so those being sacked could take home stuff from work such as computers, photos of them with Saddam or maybe an AK-47 or two.
Your description of de-nazification is also rather simplistic and seems to be more the US model than British who pretty much ignored the low level workers.
A whole lot of people were given the boot including losing pensions for being baathists from all parts of the public service including the military.
Precisely. You either do it properly or not all and keep people in place.
And Israel can’t be expected to have the same values as European countries?
Sure they can….
No it can’t, when none of the region ascribes to secularism. It would pose a security threat to Israel.
Well I admire your honesty. It must have something to do with with all those Arabs in the region, they don't understand democracy and religious freedom.
So democracy and religious freedom would pose a "security threat to Israel"?
And any democracy and religious freedom should be strictly restricted for Israelis? See the above video.
The similarities between apartheid South Africa and apartheid Israel grow with everyday (although South African apartheid was incompatibly less brutal).
South Africa under apartheid had democracy, but only for very few people. They argued, much as the argument above, how many African countries are democratic? According to them black people don't understand democracy, they are too backward. I guess, like Arabs.
Few people like to admit it but racism goes to the very heart of the Palestinian question. Racism and injustice.
I'm not stating that Ernie, I'm starting that only a two state solution is currently feasible given the political climate in the whole region. You can't force people to live together under one state, the Balkans are a fine example of that.
Palestinians would be free to pursue democracy in a two state solutions, they would also be free not to.
No waterboarding yet. Curious about your riding history though as you haven't introduced yourself anywhere else on the forum. Satisfy my curiosity, where are you based and what trails do you ride? Maybe on a new thread so as not to derail this one.
Swinley, North Wales, Wharncouver and Greno mostly.