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money wise, yes, to an extent...but everything seems to be about England so farThis already happens for Wales, Scotland and NI.
Didn't we spend a lot of time and money devoling stuff to Scotland, Wales and NI about 20 odd years ago - it's just taken a long time for the English to catch up
A bit of time and not much money in my opinion. And devolution was a good bit more than 20 years ago.
England has had an extractive relationship with Wales for so many years that it has left Wales struggling. Wales needs a different relationship with England and Westminster.
Lots of speculation today about replacing council tax and stamp duty with a flat rate property/land value tax. Would be very welcome if it happens but I'm surprised Burnham is flirting with that hornets nest. It will instantly wipe out the labour vote in the south east and London. It's got 'Labour's poll tax' written all over it so would demonstrate political balls of steel if he goes for it.
Lots of speculation today about replacing council tax and stamp duty with a flat rate property/land value tax
Feels to me like an exercise in "Announce this as a thing we're thinking about, and gauge reaction accordingly" As you say, it'll go down like a bucket of cold sick in the South East.
I can see it being extremely divisive everywhere, lots of people will see their tax go up if thngs are revalued properly. If they dont do revaluation then lots of people who bought cheap years ago will avoid it.
Will be expensive and complex to change, probably for little overall gain and a lot of grief. Sounds like a kite flying exercise tbh.
yep, it'll be fun until a bunch of people on modest incomes who live in houses that have become valuable for reasons outside their control get clobbered.
Lots of speculation today about replacing council tax and stamp duty with a flat rate property/land value tax. Would be very welcome if it happens but I'm surprised Burnham is flirting with that hornets nest. It will instantly wipe out the labour vote in the south east and London. It's got 'Labour's poll tax' written all over it so would demonstrate political balls of steel if he goes for it.
Lots of people could protest about the Poll tax as they had no skin in the game, the consequences were limited. Wealthy householders have an awful lot to lose. We won't see civil disobedience. They may complain but that's all they can do.
They’ll write letters to the Daily Telegraph in green ink
If ever there was a system in desperate need of reform, it’s council tax. It’s long since passed the point where it’s farcical and just further entrenches inequality
So to put no too fine a point on it … **** ‘em! The system has unfairly benefitted them for decades!
People in the south east have been moaning house price are too high for decades. The new tax format may help bring them down!
So to put no too fine a point on it … **** ‘em!
It would be the obvious correction after decades of policy favouring the south east but I reckon he needs to be a bit cleverer about it than simply slapping them with a massive tax hike. The other and perhaps bigger problem is that it could crash the housing market, and as we all know the middle classes in England see the value of their house as a badge of honour and the underwriter for the bank of mum and dad to keep their gilded offspring in the manner they're accustomed. It'll make the farmers inheritance tax protests look like a tea party.
and as we all know the middle classes in England see the value of their house as a badge of honour
Well, that and its their only asset
Well, that and its their only asset
A very illiquid asset, which unless they're prepared to do some radical downsizing represents a free handout to their kids when they die. Bringing house prices down would be a benefit to the country at large and go a long way towards solving the housing crisis. The main people who lose out are gen-x and millenial inheritors.
that have become valuable for reasons outside their control get clobbered
Tax wealth. Even if it’s unearned wealth. “I got my wealth by accident” isn’t a great reason for not paying your fair share of tax. We have to make changes to the current system that is redistributing wealth towards those that have, away from those who have not.
Currently older generations who have paid their mortgage off are actively disincentivised from downsizing as they'd have to pay stamp duty, replacing stamp duty with an improved council tax would incentivise them to move and free up all the nearly empty 4 bed houses for the families who actually need them.
Tax wealth. Even if it’s unearned wealth. “I got my wealth by accident” isn’t a great reason for not paying your fair share of tax. We have to make changes to the current system that is redistributing wealth towards those that have, away from those who have not.
Gentrification gets pretty rough, not only do your kids have to move out of the area, but you have to sell up because you can't afford your home?
A few other problems with it...
What happens to people who have recently paid tens of thousands in stamp duty when purchasing a high value house? Do they get some compensation?
What about renters? Presumably the landlords will pass on the charge but that could have a disproportionate effect if the property value is large so would be a further hit to renters already struggling.
It's a minefield that Burham would be wise to avoid for now. I presume in any case they'd find some way of doing it gradually rather than a big-bang approach.
theres also the dissonance between 'tax expensive haus' and 'will crash market'. Sure if you do the latter the former cant work? 🤔
Gentrification gets pretty rough, not only do your kids have to move out of the area, but you have to sell up because you can't afford your home?
If house prices were cheaper the kids wouldn't have to move away.
Gentrification happens because of extreme inequality, much of it thanks to our economy rewarding property owners. People sell properties for huge unearned sums and buy bigger/more places in upcoming areas. It’s time to tax wealth, especially property wealth, or the process will accelerate.
As for rents going up to help cover paying taxes, yes, that’s what happens… with all/any taxes on property owners. It’s one of the reasons the private sector will never adequately house those with little wealth. The answer isn’t to let property owners avoid tax… it’s many fold (house building, state owned property, rent controls, longer tenancies, empty property tax, using wealth tax to lower other costs for workers and low income pensioners, etc).
It's a minefield that Burham would be wise to avoid for now. I presume in any case they'd find some way of doing it gradually rather than a big-bang approach.
As others have said he's probably floating the idea out there to possibly include in the next manifesto.
10% blanket inheritance tax would be easier to introduce.
Lots of speculation today about replacing council tax and stamp duty
I'm quite happy with my Band A Council Tax, thanks.
Is it a massive tax hike? I'm probably in that bracket of becoming wealthy in the grand scheme because I've lived in a house in the South East for the last 22 years, going from a bit over £200k in the early 2000's to maybe £525k (that's about 4% per year average, BTW, inflation would have taken it to about £430k so it's about 100K actual growth, and doesn't include the fact 200k was undervalued at the time because it was almost derelict....anyway). £525k is bang average for where I am.
At the moment my council tax is Band E / £3060, and if / when I sell my stamp duty will be £16,250 overall, so about £800 per year I've had it, that's a total tax bill in the end of around £4000 per year (I know stamp duty is on buyer but looking at total tax take and I'd get similar on the purchase I make anyway)
0.48% of £525k is 2500 per year.
What am I missing? I reckon you'd need to be in £1M+ houses to be worse off, particularly if you don't sell and get the stamp duty.
What am I missing?
People are against even small tax rises on those with expensive homes… out of an entrenched principle about wealth (what you own) being untouchable, but earnings and transactions being fair game when it comes to tax. It’s a brave politician that takes on that idea in the UK head on.
are actively disincentivised from downsizing as they'd have to pay stamp duty
This seems like the easiest nut to crack, as long as your new house has fewer bedrooms/floor space/windows (I dunno; some measure) you get a reduction or exemption from stamp duty?
Tax wealth. Even if it’s unearned wealth
We do already through CGT, inheritance tax, and even council tax as it currently stands, is a tax on unearned wealth
All easily avoidable/minimised with some planning, accept CT which does little to account for wealth at all really. Some payers own many many times more than others who pay more than them.
If house prices were cheaper the kids wouldn't have to move away.
then your tax doesnt raise any money?
anyway Burnham timed this becoming PM thing nicely with farage's meltdown, be interesting to see what the binface byelection does for Reform over the summer
https://bsky.app/profile/luketryl.bsky.social/post/3mrmpku2lec2k
People are against even small tax rises on those with expensive homes… out of an entrenched principle about wealth
Sure, but my point's more about massive tax rises, who's actually in line for one? The ones I'd read previously as having very low Council Tax maybe - eg: Kens & Chelsea / RBKC where a band E house has a Council Tax of around £2000 (vs mine at £3000) and a quick google suggests a RBKC Band E property is now worth about 900k so would get a £4500 bill.
But RBKC is an odd proposition compared to most of the country and if tax policy has to be written for a few exceptions then that's getting it wrong.
The main people who lose out are gen-x and millenial inheritors.
This is entirely based on the assumption that they're not having to fork out £5,000 a month for care for an elderly parent. The proceeds from a house sale don't go far with those costs. I think a lot of said gen-x and millennials are about to get the rude awakening that they're not going to be inheriting anything.
Which brings us on to something that Andy Burnham has been saying needs fixing for 15 years and mentioned again this morning.... that the care system needs sorting, not for the benefit of gen-x and millennial potential inheritors, but because the state of the care sector means a massive amount of NHS beds are taken up by pensioners who shouldn't be in hospital, but in a care home
Yep I'd rather see inheritances disappear to pay for care costs rather than wealth taxes. Seems fair to me, nurse your parents (like people used to do out of necessitity) or lose the inheritance you haven't earned. I think you are right though a lot of gen X are expecting inheritances to top up their pensions, big mistake.
Hi Binners, not been on here since late 2024, thought I'd drop back in but got locked out of my old acc so got a new one.
You might remember I told you who would win the tory leadership and that reform would be coming for labour in a big way, you disagreed fair enough] though look where we are now? I'll get the crystal ball out and tell you what's going to happen next if you like, never gambled myself but you know my tips are good!
My understanding of the call to tax wealth from where the slogan “tax wealth not work” is primarily aimed at those with extreme levels of wealth that derive a passive income from their assets. Whilst we may benefit from a more progressive tax system at all levels, it is interesting to see how we are all debating how we can tax the comfortably off middle class home owners a bit more - while the ultra-rich that Gary et al have in their sights will probably watch us bicker and, in the end, remain untouched… unless Burnham does what Gary says… which I doubt he will because the billionaires and the billionaire press will make sure he doesn’t.
nurse your parents (like people used to do out of necessitity) or lose the inheritance you haven't earned
that would be possible if you could run a household on one income. These days though you need two incomes even if you’re pretty comfortable.
primarily aimed at those with extreme levels of wealth that derive a passive income from their assets
Like landlords and people building property portfolios as a tax efficient way to hold and build their wealth?
FT are reporting that Burnham has bottled the land value tax already.
Same old patterns repeating
1) moot a tax policy that might actually make a difference to ordinary hard working people
2) rich-owned press go into propaganda overdrive and turn people against it
3) U-turn or deny it was ever policy
4) increase taxes on work instead
5) wonder why you lose popularity
Unsurprised.
FT are reporting that Burnham has bottled the land value tax already.
Bottled or parked?
Even if they started work on the project now it would barely be in place before the next election. Which wouldn't be good timing as it would scare people.
It would be perfect timing. Such changes should be in an election manifesto, so we can support them.
anyway Burnham timed this becoming PM thing nicely with farage's meltdown, be interesting to see what the binface byelection does for Reform over the summer
https://bsky.app/profile/luketryl.bsky.social/post/3mrmpku2lec2k
I appreciate a lot can change and this may not form a trend.
But setting all that aside, hell yes to Reform not leading a poll.
anyway Burnham timed this becoming PM thing nicely with farage's meltdown
The degree to which Farage has shot himself in the foot is absolutely brilliant. Wondering why you've not heard from him for the last couple weeks? Well he isn't just hiding from questions about his dodgy financing, though obviously that's also an issue.
It's because he is taking part in a by-election, then electoral rules about bias apply. He's no longer an MP, he's merely a candidate. So if the BBC, for example, gave an interview with him, they'd then also have to give equal airtime to his political rivals, so Binface would also have to be asked for comment. Old frog-face should know this as he took full advantage of this bias rule during the Brexit referendum and now it's come back and bitten him on the arse, big time! So he's basically taken a self-inflicted vow of silence, which must be driving him mad! And he brought it entirely upon himself, for no good reason. 🤣
Thats why Honest Bob is everywhere at the moment. Always an electoral asset.
1) moot a tax policy that might actually make a difference to ordinary hard working people
The Starmer govt (remember them?) put forward a "mansion tax" (the High Value Council Tax Surcharge) introduced by Reeves in the Oct 2025 Budget will raise an estimated £400B in it's first year (FY28/29) - the annual cost to the govt for it's entire social care budget - NHS, pensions, PIP benefits- the whole thing - costs us £337B annually.
I can't see how you reconcile a land value tax with rented properties. What if it's council-owned? What if it was right-to-buy? What happens to the single-person's discount?
Although part of me would like to see it just so that the multi-million pound Kensington flats suddenly start paying their fair share of council tax instead of a quarter of what I pay in t'north.
Your maths are way out there Nick. Way out.
‘The HVCTS is estimated to raise around £430 million of revenue per year from 2028/29 to support funding for local government services.’
A small step in the right direction though. I’ll be surprised if Burnham goes much further.
I’ll be surprised if Burnham goes much further
If it's going to happen it needs to happen slowly. Not sure that's possible though given the way council tax works which is why no one has done anything about it in 20 years. I'm not even sure why they floated it or even if they did. This has all the hallmarks of someone causing mischief. One of Starmer's acolytes spreading fake rumours to cause trouble??
