MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
"Hello Mr LHS"
"Yes an engineer will be right with you"
NO!
A technician will. Did he spend 4 years at university to get a professional qualification?
NO! Therefore he is not an Engineer.
Vent over. 🙄
A very weak effort... 1/10
A technician will. Did he spend 4 years at university to get a professional qualification?NO! Therefore he is not an Engineer
Do you know this for a fact?
I feel your pain 🙁
For sport, I'll sometimes quiz plumbers on the relevant theromdynamic drivers on the design of heat exchangers in boliers if they have 'engineer' on the side of their van......
relevant theromdynamic drivers on the design of heat exchangers in boliers if they have 'engineer' on the side of their van
😆
Pet hate of mine. Especially as I went to the trouble of getting an engineering degree and these daysd I find it to not be worth the paper it's written on. Even when I was working in my field, the "technicians" were making more money!
and yet on a similar note half the people on here call themselves cyclists.
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Engineer-Status/
Closed 2 years ago, and as per usual with the e-petitions, no response.
Did he spend 4 years at university to get a professional qualification
He might have done.
Equally he might have been a Doctor - that would screw with your head even more.
'The Doctor will come to fix your boiler soon'.
Can I call myself a Telephone Engineer having studied and obtained an HNC in that very subject
To be honest not bothered whether you think its right or not and daresay the chap who called didn't either
If you got so shitty about it I would be tempted to say fine, fix it yourself then you clever git
A technician will. Did he spend 4 years at university to get a professional qualification?NO! Therefore he is not an Engineer.
Utter utter bollocks. I've met some very very poor uni educated engineers, and someone with a good understanding of systems coming from a hands on background will run rings around them every time. I've also done uni and my opinion hasn't changed.
Even when I was working in my field, the "technicians" were making more money!
that's because they're more valuable and knowledgable.
Strangest thing just happened there - Your post made the following song lyric spring into my head. "I'm a loser baby, so why dont you kill me"
Maybe you should do what it says.
Are you a loser?
backhander - MemberA technician will. Did he spend 4 years at university to get a professional qualification?
NO! Therefore he is not an Engineer.
Utter utter bollocks. I've met some very very poor uni educated engineers, and someone with a good understanding of systems coming from a hands on background will run rings around them every time. I've also done uni and my opinion hasn't changed.
Even when I was working in my field, the "technicians" were making more money!
that's because they're more valuable and knowledgable.
I agree with this and whilst the person who went to uni may have 4 years of theory training the person who did a 4 year apprenticeship has 4 years of actualy working on the things where the theory goes out of the window.
We spent all day today having BT "engineers" phone us up to "test our lines" (that's how you test a line apparently, just phone it) and saying "There's nothing wrong with it, obviously, as I just called you", and then listening uncomprehendingly as we explain what that word "intermittent" on the fault report means. And then, saying "How often is it that people can't get through" "Hard to say really, they can't get through"
For sport, I'll sometimes quiz plumbers on the relevant theromdynamic drivers on the design of heat exchangers in boliers if they have 'engineer' on the side of their van......
You must be a real hoot at parties 😯
Im working towards my "engineer" status through the IET. Just to meet personal goals
So technically i'm only a technician - but i have to agree with the above comments, some of the worst people in my trade (power distribution) are "engineers" that think they know what they are talking about, but don't know FA.
It's just letters after your name - oh and technicians at my place earn more than the engineers.
edit - fyi, I did an apprenticeship and went on from there - invaluble
I just like to add, that if I had my time again, I'd have gone in via the practical route. I also think that the technicians are worth more, do know more and have had more practical training. However, they still shouldn't be called engineers. Surely, techs should be called techs and engineers called engineers and if the people who count, really know the difference then they'd be happy to be dealing with the techs. If techs know the truth, do thy really want to be called engineers?
Your salary petty much tells you how valuable you are - who cares what the job title says.....
en·gi·neer
1.
a person trained and skilled in the [b]design, construction, and use of engines or machines,[/b] or in any of various branches of engineering: a mechanical engineer; a civil engineer.
2.
a person who operates or is in charge of an engine.
3.
Also called locomotive engineer. Railroads. a person who operates or is in charge of a locomotive.
4.
a member of an army, navy, or air force specially trained in engineering work.
5.
a skillful manager: a political engineer.
have a saying at work fitters fit things engineers make things and techies talk sh*t me iam an old school engineer 4 years apprenticship city and guilds btec and 15 years in trade
p.s also got a degree in engineering never been any help work wise
IMO companies / industry in general will call their staff whatever they want to in order to impress potential / existing clients / customers etc.
Since completing my further education (RAF Apprenticeship) I've been labelled Junior Technician, Installation & Communication technician, commissioning engineer, project engineer, project manager, support engineer, operations manager, telecomms technician. Each with more pay than the last (in that order) and with no additional qualifications.
Is there perhaps a difference between an "engineer" and an "Engineer"?
well, i'm proud to say i have an electrical and electronic engineering degree.
do I use it?
nope.
You need a four year degree before they'll leave you in charge of an engine? How long do boiler engineers train for? 6-7 years?
I'vr also got:
• a person qualified in a branch of engineering, esp. as a professional.
in my dictionary.
That's me, and I haven't got a degree, nearly all of mine's hands on training.
Fitter, engineer, technician, that's the progression in the gas industry, by the way, where did Brunel do his degree?
The status of Engineer is protected in France in the same way that Doctor is in this country. To be a real Engineer capable of designing the stuff technicians repair takes a 4 year degree course then at least 10 years of training and work to achieve chartered engineer status. At that point you'll merely be competent. Most of the problems we have are due to technicians failing to follow basic procedures or work instructions. Fitters are notorious for failing to understand basic metal fatigue. This leads to us engineers designing in multiple interlocks and increasing reserve factors on designs to account for misuse.
That said I would say engineering has become a victim of what I call B*ll S*it Britain, many undergrads come to interview and when you ask them what they want to do they answer "manage", not understanding that if you don't understand how to do a job, you won't be able to manage it.
Why do you think all manufacturing and design has gone abroad? The French, Germans, Americans, Chinese and Japanese all value real engineers and hence have more manufacturing. I could go into history of how there was an exodus of engineers to the US from the UK in the 1800's that lead to standardisation of production techniques etc.
Could you as an engineer design the following, 2 tonne liquid sodium pumps, a mechanical log splitter, a 40 tonne reactor access house including the negative pressure air system, then switch to thermodynamic modelling and design of cooling systems, HP compressor design for gas turbines and do safety case assessment with fault tree analysis and a bit of human factors assessment, you might be there.
Oh and I do know the basics of mechanical repair and electronics as well....
I don't have a beef with what qualification's somebody has, I know plenty of graduates who will never be an Engineer as long as they have a hole in their ars3. Conversely I know plenty of good time served guys who are superb at what they do. What I object to is everybody calling themselves Engineers when they work in IT FF's. Technician or Programmer yes maybe but Engineer. NO WAY.
Why do you think all manufacturing and design has gone abroad?
I thought engineers valued precision. I hope your 2 tonne liquid log splitter with integral cooling and access house isn't as slap dash as your proclamations about industrial employment structures.
Most of the problems we have are due to technicians failing to follow basic procedures or work instructions
Guess as a technician, I will need to tell the "engineer" to go and refer to his/her vast knowledge and experience and not to bother asking me for the answers to questions they paid to understand
Most of the time, the reasons things fail is due to poor design. All too often designers give specs to manufacturers and ask what they need and if it's just too difficult, the job goes out as design and build to the contractors who understand the systems and maintenance requirements far better than the designers ever will. The contractors will invariably be time served engineers who have at least will have got dirt under their fingernails at some point in their careers.
design the following, 2 tonne liquid sodium pumps, a mechanical log splitter, a 40 tonne reactor access house including the negative pressure air system, then switch to thermodynamic modelling and design of cooling systems, HP compressor design for gas turbines and do safety case assessment with fault tree analysis and a bit of human factors assessment
If I were a client, I would be very concerned if the same person was designing all of these systems. Jack of all trades?
the more "Engineers" i meet the more i hate having the 'e' word in my current job title
i trained as a gas fitter - city and guilds- and 30 years experience
and when it comes to getting a job that's well worth the paper it's written on
I'm a Chartered Information Technology Practitioner
It makes me mad discussing this sort of stuff online with the rest of you who know nothing. You should all bow to my status and respect my posts as one who truely understands the make-up of the underlying technology that delivers them.
Sorry Dave.
That's ok backhander I will strike you from my list of ips to own
hope you got charged more for being an arse. 🙄
The majority of people who ask what my degree is expect me to be fitting boilers.
I tell them I'm an applied aerothermodynamicist instead. And that only covers a third of it...
Jack of all trades?
No, someone who understands the physics behind all of them, as well as having an understanding of design.
Chartered engineer here. This is hilarious - standard swapping of chips on shoulders.
There are time served types out there who know things I never will (unless I listen to them - I'm bright enough to listen).
And the bright time served types know that the good lads fresh out of uni know stuff they never will (unless they listen - which they do).
These days I manage around 80 "engineers" - degree types and time served. They pay me very reasonably.
Next
Igm
Good comments. I work for a fellow dno, and have seen some bright graduate engineers and some vary intelligent craftsmen who have gone on to do engineering roles as well as anyone with the letters after their name.
I think they key is having a good mix in a team who work together to get the job done. Without support from other areas one group - engineers or techs, wouldn't get anything done
Tom (CN)
Personally I think engineers and technicians are two different roles and should be named as such, but neither is in any way more important than the other and being an engineer does not mean you know more by any stretch of the imagination. I get very very annoyed at work when I see young grads trying to put across that they know more than some of our technicians who have been here for years and are incredibly skilled. As a young engineer, I try and learn as much as possible off our technicians as they are infinitely more useful to get knowledge out of than my degree was.
Unfortunately, it is generally engineer's attitudes that are the main reason behing a lot of roles which are clearly technicians roles (and as stated, nothing wrong with that at all) but are called engineers just so that they don't get looked down on by engineers. Which is very sad really.
What I object to is everybody calling themselves Engineers when they work in IT FF's. Technician or Programmer yes maybe but Engineer. NO WAY.
What about people calling themselves engineers, when they build products with firmware - they're just glorified programmers really. Or people who build software systems which happen to have a physical electronics element to them, do they get allowed to call themselves engineers?
Nowadays everything is all about designing systems, the software / hardware boundary at least in many areas (e.g. cars, aeroplanes, consumer devices etc.) is so blurred nowadays that it is pretty stupid to pretend that there is a massive difference between hardware 'engineering' and software 'programming'. Although judging from the general standards of most firmware programmer 'electronic engineers', they could probably do with a few people from a computer rather then engineering background involved - they make all the same mistakes that computer programmers have been battling with for years, but don't seem to have any of the systems to cope with them that computer people have developed, relying instead in things from old school engineering, which really don't adapt to a world that is largely software and changes rapidly.
Now, as for computer 'science', if you ask me, that is pretty stupid - it is blatantly engineering not science (and I work in a CS department!).
Joe
"Hello Mr LHS""Yes an engineer will be right with you"
NO!
A technician will. Did he spend 4 years at university to get a professional qualification?
NO! Therefore he is not an Engineer.
Vent over.
No, I spent 5 years serving a very well rounded apprentiship, working 40 hours a week and spending the rest of my free time studying for an ENGINEERING ONC, HNC and HND. Working much harder and longer with far less free time than any of my mates who chose to go to uni and from what I could see, toss it off and party for the first few years. I've since spent another decade and far more time at collage studying even further to achieve yet another HNC and HND in electrical engineering to broaden my skills set and adapt to modern technologies that integrate a lot more electronic process control than ever before.
You want to get over yourself LHS, many "Technicians" as you call them are far more capable than some snot nosed kid straight out of his degree, and just as capable of designing and commissioning machines and systems as you would like to think. nob end.
I agree that the title should be protected; it's bandied about with no clear distinction of the role. I also agree that it's not solely about the degree, but I do believe that some form of comprehensive education should be a part of it.
Having been an IT technician, an IT Engineer, an IT Manager and having just (fingers crossed) graduated with a fist class Masters in Aerospace Engineering, I think that there are and always should be clear boundaries between the roles.
As an IT technician I was trained to do a smallish number of jobs very well.
As an IT engineer I was educated to understand a much broader range of topics and applications and to understand the complexities of myriad different aspects of IT systems/software and their interaction both with each other and their users.
Having now worked at Technician level within both Rolls Royce and BAE Systems during summer placements, I can say that my broader range of skills learnt during my degree, allow me to tackle problems with far greater understanding of the entire system than I may have had, had I just been trained for the role.
The whole thing is like nurses and doctors.
Surely 'manager' is the most egregious misuse of a title.
The term "Consultant" is just as bad.
See we have nice people on here...
http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/the-biggest-idiot-on-facebook
I did an unfocused rant trying to highlight that engineering is undervalued in this country compared to the time spent learning the job, whether on the job, through university, day release, apprenticeships etc compared to other countries.
I will now move on with my sad lonely life and not bother this site again.
Surely you're not an engineer unless you wear a boiler suit?
nob end
Well when you put it that eloquently who am I to argue!!?
🙄
There is a clear definition in my eyes between a Technician (the guy who came to replace a broken fridge door) and an Engineer who can design a gas turbine engine.
Technicians and Engineers share equally as important roles in our land. However the time taken to study for years, then become a chartered engineer from practical experience is not recognised and is vastly different than someone who can come and fix your vending machine for you.
As someone who has a protected title I'd suggest that all you grease monkeys shouldn't worry too much as all it seems to offer me is the opportunity to pay £90 a year just to be on the register (required by law). I'm also chartered which doesn't offer much either except for a monthly magazine and a president who can't say the name of the institute correctly.
The whole thing is like nurses and doctors
So engineers spend all their time trying to shag technicians!
I agree that the title should be protected; it's bandied about with no clear distinction of the role.
Maybe the second half is true, but why should the government get involved to do what you suggest in the first half? Who's losing out, apart from touchy uni-qualified engineers?
IIRC (and I could be talking out my arse here), "teacher" and "therapist" are also not protected titles in the UK and I would have thought that misuse of those titles is going to lead to more damage/risk to the public.
There is a clear definition in my eyes between a Technician (the guy who came to replace a broken fridge door) and an Engineer who can design a gas turbine engine.
That's the thing, the guy who is replacing the fridge door may well have done a 4/5 year apprentiship in refrigeration, and be more knowledgable about it than a designer with a generic mechanical engineering degree.
And what would you call the guy who troubleshoots and repairs the gas turbine?
Engineer does not exclusively mean designer.