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Not my opinions, but merely lobbing in to stimulate debate.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23998330-lessons-of-the-riots-on-police-numbers.do
A coincidence to read these in Friday's Evening Standard and see this STW debate
I get you you meant that if poor people had a reasonable share of resource and they could stay at home watching stuff in their 42 inch plasma i then the state as satiation reduces crime so lets share the resources to reduce crime 😀
The murder/violencce rate and average temperature correlate across cultures so i would not read anything too casual into the first one tbh.
There are more folk out on the streets for longer in summer than now etc
There are some enormous issues to resolve around why individuals feel so disenfranchised from society as to commit the more serious of crimes however until we have a solution to these the law abiding majority must be protected. That's prison's primary objective. I have limited experience of crime or criminals and feel fortunate as a result however I wonder how many of those in favour of less penal sentencing would be happy to have criminals released early to live amongst them whilst undergoing whatever better system they imagine can be implemented overnight. The majority of the race/social class comments made are as irrelevant as complaining that most long distance running champions are not white. Sometimes you have to recognise where we are and look to move forward even if the pace of change isn't as immediate as we would all like.
Fwiw Stealing chocolate is never acceptable if it's mine 😉
Have you ever been in a prison?
TJ:
In a prison ... Yes.
The wrong side of the bars ... No.
Do I know criminals? ... yes, a wide variety of them, from low level to serious crime.
Have I met them before and after they've spent time in prison? ... Yes
Have some of them re-offended after having being in prison? ... yes, quite a lot of them.
Am I convinced that their time(s) spent in prison acted as a deterrant to stop the re-offending ? ... not particularly.
I actually know someone that will deliberately re-offend or breach bail / ASBO conditions so that he can spend time in prison as he prefers it there.
Whilst I haven't been the wrong side of the bars/done time, my comments / opinions are from a fairly hands on experience of criminals, their crimes and the subsequent justice / reform system.
As I say, I just dont think the system has enough of a deterrant in its current form.
fisha - MemberAs I say, I just dont think the system has enough of a deterrant in its current form.
Probably true of all criminal justice systems... Prison's been generally shown to be a poor deterrant, and also to be effective at increasing reoffending. Trouble is that the simple approach "Make sentencing worse, people will decide not to offend" just doesn't work.
Human psychology is much more complex than that. Fundamentally, people don't look up the tariff for a crime and say "Well, if I get caught I'll only get 6 months, that's a reasonable risk" or "I'd get put away for 2 years, better not". What definately does happen when faced with stiffer sentencing (such as 3-strikes) is that people think "Better make the crime worthy of the sentence" and "Better go to greater lengths to avoid being caught"
Combine that with the basic misunderstandings and misreporting of sentencing- most people believe average sentencing and conviction rates to be lower than they are. That applies to potential criminals just as it does joe law abiding public.
And then on top of that, add a healthy slice of the public's disapproval of the techniques that actually do reduce crime, because they don't seem tough enough. As a population, we'd rather have punishments that feel satisfactory but have crime go up, instead of sentencing that works but feels soft or unsatisfying.
And then on top of that, add a healthy slice of the public's disapproval of the techniques that actually do reduce crime, because they don't seem tough enough.
Genuine question, what are those techniques?
I also agree that in some cases, a stiffer sentence isn't necessarily the answer ( that does not mean that i think all sentences should be reduced tho )
As I said originally, I personally think that sentencing such as fines ( where given out ) in some cases could be more effective by targeting a punishing the offender at source. Fines directly out of income for one ... that way the punishment is given out when the person is going about thier normal life. It makes the crimes have an ongoing consequence in day to day basis.
Is anything a deterrent? I should have thought having your hand cut off or being flogged would ensure crime free countries.
As regards the whole 3 strikes thing, how many laws have you broken today? I crossed the road on a red pedestrian signal, have parked my car facing the wrong way down the street and ridden my bike without a reflector on it.
I'm not smart enough to offer a solution to the worlds problems but i think criminals should do the jobs the councils can't afford to do. We have enough pot holes and run down hospitals to keep them out of mischief for a while.
Ideological arguments apart, it seems to me that to do something that self evidently doesn't work and then recommend doing more of it as a solution does draw the sanity of those proposing that course of action into question.
zippykona - MemberIs anything a deterrent? I should have thought having your hand cut off or being flogged would ensure crime free countries.
Obviously not. Death sentences don't fully deter so not sure where that leaves the "severe punishment" mob- really unpleasant deaths? Kill people twice?
fisha - MemberGenuine question, what are those techniques?
Reoffending rates for noncustodial sentencing are significantly lower than prison sentences. Rehabilitation is generally considered to be more effective per £/$ than jail time. Prison education and vocational training reduce reoffending. Harsh prison conditions have been indicated to increase reoffending.
Basically, keeping people out of prison reduces crime, prison consistently increases crime in the long run. And prisons that help people to act like normal functioning human beings while they're inside, help them to do the same once outside. It's naturally appealing to treat people like animals in a cage but obviously insane to expect them to act afterwards like anything other than animals without a cage, if you do.
Bastoy in Norway is a fascinating case study... It's a low-security jail for serious offenders yet has the lowest reoffending rate in europe. Yet is also the least expensive prison to run in Norway. To be fair it can cherrypick its population but they're not chosen to be soft touches.
I should say- I'm not a [i]medical professional[/i], but you may want to give my opinion the same level of healthy cynicism 😉 It's just a subject I find interesting, I've no professional experience in this but I take my info from people who do.
Northwind you say "Reoffending rates for noncustodial sentencing are significantly lower than prison sentences". Is this based on like for like comparisons as it strikes me that non custodial sentences are likely to be for lesser crimes hence reoffending rates could be expected to be lower as the perpetrators may not yet be career criminals. If so then surely your argument is flawed? Pretty crime and career crime require very different approaches in my view, the gourmet is more about re education, the latter more about protecting the public. I genuinely think parents have a huge part to play here in drying boundaries n teaching respect at an early stage. Poverty is no excuse but access to learning and social responsibility are key. Far too many people think society owes them branded goods n spare cash. I think compulsory parenting classes are the way to go. Plus making prison punitive and benefits to be worked for.
deep red dave - no - once you allow for all other factors non custodial sentances have a lower reoffending rate.
Punative prisons increase reoffending.
Tj - thanks. Never been sufficiently motivated to research the facts that might support your statement but prima facie it's both pleasing and surprising! I appreciate if true it's a general issue rather than case specific which presumably is the problem here, knowing which approach will work best with each offender. Still think the majority of pretty crime/drug addiction could be avoided by better education however there is a small minority of society who really should not be allowed to need if they cannot parent better!
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