I don’t care about any of that either. So what if someone knows my buddy is Joey and I go biking with Will? either that may lead to more bike shops in the area (find me places where middle class cyclists live) or they’ll throw me an ad for a pub doing a nice pint after an hour of riding. I’m good with that too
I totaly get that, but where's your kick back in cash to you for giving them marketable data?
The paranoia on here is brilliant. Nobody is forcing anyone to own any so called smart equipment. It’s all a choice, don’t like it, don’t choose it. The day I’m forced to own an echo dot or equivalent device is the day I’ll panic.
As for suggesting our government could use the data in some nefarious way, don’t make me laugh. Our government can’t even govern FFS. They tried to manage a pandemic in Excel!
Edit - Voice controlled stuff is shite too. I’ve got a few Hue light bulbs and the bridge. Still use the light switches because I don’t live in a mansion so light switches are in easy reach. Novelty of using echo wore off in less than a day. For everything else it’s just as quick to browse phone, Spotify, Netflix etc.
Bacofoil on the stock market?
Off topic, but the British Aluminium Company was taken over in 1958
Amazon’s rationale seems very much about them driving you towards what they want to sell rather that what you want to buy
Pretty much like every company ever. Why do you think companies randomly discount stuff?
I’ve got a few Hue light bulbs and the bridge. Still use the light switches because I don’t live in a mansion so light switches are in easy reach.
There are benefits. My dad used to have to go round the room at night turning half a dozen lamps off, reaching down the back of things for the switches. Now in our house we just say 'Alexa, goodnight'. I can also set the lights to 1% and a cool blue/white like moonlight so the cat can see to amuse herself, and we can see the cat so we don't tread on her. I can turn the desk light off from bed too, that kind of thing. It's useful and also annoying at the same time. Ideally you want smart switches and bulbs so you can turn it off at the door on the way out and then turn it back on from the sofa etc. On the other hand, it's endless electronic junk.
I used to read the comic 200AD as a kid
Dude, is that like a prequel comic and just how old are you?
As for suggesting our government could use the data in some nefarious way, don’t make me laugh. Our government can’t even govern FFS. They tried to manage a pandemic in Excel!
Which makes you wonder how they got to be in power maybe 🙂 Or maybe it doesn't make you wonder anything.
I used to read the comic 200AD as a kid
Dude, is that like a prequel comic and just how old are you?
Sounds dystopian enough for me - I'll ask the newsagent to set a copy aside
The Crisis of the Third Century, also known as Military Anarchy or the Imperial Crisis (235–284 AD), was a period in which the Roman Empire nearly collapsed under the combined pressures of barbarian invasions and migrations into the Roman territory, civil wars, peasant rebellions, political instability (with multiple usurpers competing for power), Roman reliance on (and growing influence of) barbarian mercenaries known as foederati and commanders nominally working for Rome (but increasingly independent), plague, debasement of currency, and economic depression.
I don’t care about any of that either. So what if someone knows my buddy is Joey and I go biking with Will? either that may lead to more bike shops in the area (find me places where middle class cyclists live) or they’ll throw me an ad for a pub doing a nice pint after an hour of riding. I’m good with that too
... and that's how it happens.
… and that’s how it happens.
Yep, you get a new bikeshop opening near you and the local pub becomes MTB friendly 😉
Personally, for someone who buys a lot of stuff on Amazon, I'm continually amazed about how little they seem to know about me. Their targeted product suggestions are utter rubbish. In books they only offer me books I've already bought from them and in other products it's just completely random shit eg they seem to think we have a baby and keep suggesting a whole range of baby products (we have zero kids and no nappy fetish either).
Amazon creating vast spreadsheets
You are an accountant and ICMFP. Databases for large data-sets not spreadsheets!
Its all way too late to worry about, like climate change the tipping point for not selling yourself to Amazon and many others was a few years back.
they seem to think we have a baby and keep suggesting a whole range of baby products (we have zero kids and no nappy fetish either).
Place a bet your other half is broody and looking...
My old boss made the mistake of looking at a surprise holiday and new suit for hubby when he was awarded OBE. Logged in on browser.
Of course hubby at home, also logged into their shared email address, then saw endless adverts for Canadian holidays and new suits / suit hire and hand an inkling something was afoot...
Which makes you wonder how they got to be in power maybe 🙂 Or maybe it doesn’t make you wonder anything.
Don’t need to wonder, I know. Around half of the popular are utter ****wits and a small number of smart people are apathetic.
Now in our house we just say ‘Alexa, goodnight’. I can also set the lights to 1% and a cool blue/white like moonlight so the cat can see to amuse herself, and we can see the cat so we don’t tread on her. I can turn the desk light off from bed too, that kind of thing. It’s useful and also annoying at the same time.
Doesn’t work here because toddler and small child. They flick a light switch and the smart tech gets befuddled and duplicates the light. “There are multiple items called living room light” 😀
The paranoia on here is brilliant. Nobody is forcing anyone to own any so called smart equipment. It’s all a choice, don’t like it, don’t choose it. The day I’m forced to own an echo dot or equivalent device is the day I’ll panic.
Really? Tried to buy a TV recently that isn’t ’smart’? That is, loaded up with a two year old OS that’ll never get upgraded, and ceases to work properly after a couple of years, that meanwhile is happily monitoring what you say and do, which information you have no idea about, or ultimately where it’s going, especially the sets that are manufactured by Chinese, or Chinese-owned companies.
You want dystopian? The Chinese government has passed laws that make it illegal to criticise China, it’s government, or it’s behaviour, or try to prosecute any Chinese business or it’s staff for anything that might be illegal or unethical. What will happen is nationals from any country attempting to take legal action against a Chinese company will find themselves being arrested and extradited to China to face charges of ‘spying’, or ‘financial irregularities’. The Chinese government has signed reciprocal agreements with around forty other countries, including Portugal.
It’s not too much of a stretch to imagine the huge Chinese surveillance panopticon searching for trigger terms, sending alerts for specific ‘people of interest’, who then find themselves being taken aside at customs when travelling abroad on holiday or business, and who then vanish into China.
Ask the two Canadian businessmen who’ve just been returned after spending two years under arrest in China on ‘spying’ charges, after Canada tried to prosecute a Chinese company member.
I would not, under any circumstances, own an Alexa speaker, or whatever the Amazon thing is called, or anything that uses Alexa; friends have one, I’ve witnessed just how bloody useless it is, repeated requests to play a particular artist or song is met with either silence or something else entirely! What happened that made using a remote control so arduous? Or just using a music player on a phone linked to your audio system.
I’m going to have to replace my elderly Sony Bravia, (bought in a Boxing Day sale in 2007), the screen is clearly degrading, and I don’t want or need a smart tv, I have a Sky Q box and a Mac Mini for that, but I’m going to be forced to buy one, because I don’t have any option.
And don’t suggest getting a big monitor and use that, a 55” monitor will cost two, three or four times what I’m prepared to pay, which is what I paid for the three sets I’ve owned over the last thirty-odd years: around £8-900, £1000 tops. If it lasts another fifteen years, I’d be happy with that.
I have considered an Apple HomeHub or whatever the speaker’s called - I never use Siri, and the sound quality is supposed to be outstanding, so I’d be happy with that, and Apple have better security than Amazon.
If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear.
The ideal motto for any secret police force.
I can relate to both sides here.
As an individual I'm not too concerned about what tech companies know about me. On a societal level I am.
I'm probably ideal fodder for big tech feeling this way.
Bothered but not enough to do anything about it.... and there are many, many like me.
Individually sentient but as a demographic a zombie herd.
Really? Tried to buy a TV recently that isn’t ’smart’?
No, also you could just not connect it to the internet. I have an old smart TV that isn’t connected an just use a Roku for watching what I want through it.
The Chinese government has passed laws that make it illegal to criticise China, it’s government, or it’s behaviour, or try to prosecute any Chinese business or it’s staff for anything that might be illegal or unethical. What will happen is nationals from any country attempting to take legal action against a Chinese company will find themselves being arrested and extradited to China to face charges of ‘spying’,
Looks like you’re getting extradited in 3, 2, 1………
Countzero. Just buy a smart TV and don't plug it into the internet.
Hey presto! Dumb TV.
Freeview for TV through a normal aerial.
Of course they’re not being altruistic, but if they know I like red stuff and show me red stuff first, so I don’t have to scroll past blue stuff? great.
What if they get to the stage offers likes red stuff, he’ll pay more for red stuff, price the red ones £1 higher just for him?
how is it naive? I acknowledge they’re doing this to sell more stuff, by making their site better. That’s fine. I use their site a lot. if its better, I’m all for it.
I’m not naive, I just don’t care.
And I did say lots of people won’t think it’s bad. However, what if better means rather than hesitate during the shopping process you just buy more stuff you don’t need? Or rather than Google to see if the Amazon price is fair you are just asking a speaker to order it and perhaps speaker orders are given higher prices? The question is - is it better for you, or better for them?
One click checkout was a great improvement for users, but Amazon did it to make it less likely you walk away with a half full cart. At the same time they made it more likely I’d place three orders in a week all coming in separate deliveries with their own packaging and fuel costs rather than consolidating into a once a week order. Worse for everyone!
Which makes you wonder how they got to be in power maybe 🙂 Or maybe it doesn’t make you wonder anything.
Yeah, it’s not like anyone tried to use big data to manipulate democracy in the last decade is it!
“Ok - the guy who shouts at the TV when Borris is on has gone out, let’s manipulate the ads his wife sees as she seems to be a bit more sympathetic to brexit.”
“Ok these guys clearly don’t own any bikes so play the transport ads that talk about road tax and ensuring drivers are able to make progress”
“Right they’ve had 17 deliveries this week mostly of tat from the Far East - no point sending them the made locally is great video, or trying to convince them we are saving the high st - let’s emphasize how the gov is kickstarting the economy and brexit makes it easier to get stuff from beyond europe”
And of course that assumes you are lucky enough to be in the position of having always on internet to “benefit” from Alexa - should you be in the underclass the government couldn’t give a shit about who live in such poverty they can’t afford broadband then Amazon don’t want you either because you can’t afford to shop with them.
I’m going to have to replace my elderly Sony Bravia, (bought in a Boxing Day sale in 2007), the screen is clearly degrading, and I don’t want or need a smart tv, I have a Sky Q box and a Mac Mini for that, but I’m going to be forced to buy one, because I don’t have any option.
You could just not connect it to the internet....
You could but many TVs are like any other tech device now and will need updates and will become slow/unusable in a short number of years.
It's also kind of nuts that we just accept the idea that to be able to use the internet then companies will harvest massive amounts of data about us and use it to manipulate us/sell it to other people.
I must admit I've given up in some areas for the sake of convenience. It's fine if you decide you don't care but pretending it isn't an issue is daft.
Apple have better security than Amazon.
that's pretty debatable. Plenty of exlpoits on apple kit, in fact today someone has announced they can hack your iphone to exceed the contactless limit that should exist on locked phones - so not only impacting the apple kit, but also leaving you with no cash in your bank.
You are an accountant and ICMFP. Databases for large data-sets not spreadsheets!
No I'm not an accountant, let's clear that up immediately. 😉
But I nearly forgot I was dealing mainly with literal-minded engineers on this forum, who care about this kind of distinction:
The main technical difference between a spreadsheet and a database comes down to the way they store data. In a spreadsheet, data is stored in a cell, and can be formatted, edited, and manipulated within that cell. In a database, cells contain records that come from external tables.
The day I’m forced to own an echo dot or equivalent device is the day I’ll panic
That is too late - which is why a wise man once said "all that is required for evil to flourish is that good men do nothing"
I don't own an Alexa and never will - unless you lot are so apathetic that the Government mandates every house must have one. In which case I shall get on a plane to the middle of nowhere and simply disappear (with my bike obvs!) :o)
It's clear to anyone who wants to think critically about it for more than 2 minutes that we have now seemingly resigned ourselves to give huge amounts of our personal information to large private profit making organisations that only a few years ago we wouldn't thought needed to be anywhere near the public domain, and can now easily justify that decision to themselves.
The nature of privacy is clearly changing, and it's interesting that those folk who're trying to hang on to what only 20 years ago most folk would have thought uncontroversially private: Your credit worthiness, your shopping habits, your leisure activities, your political persuasions, all now available to organisations with a mind to or enough money to gather it, are being labelled as paranoid or luddites.
And we're doing it with almost no oversight, and no accountability. Just for sake on not having to get off the sofa as often as our parents had to.
Sir Tim Berners-Lee has the answer:
"Users control which entities and apps can access their data."
that’s pretty debatable.
No idea bout Amazon but Apple phones submit a lot less personal data than Android phones. I'm sure they're far from perfect but they do seem better than most.
I have a Chinese spy phone anyway 😂
It’s clear to anyone who wants to think critically about it for more than 2 minutes that we have now seemingly resigned ourselves to give huge amounts of our personal information to large private profit making organisations that only a few years ago we wouldn’t thought needed to be anywhere near the public domain, and can now easily justify that decision to themselves.
Visa, Mastarcard and high street banks have had access to all our financial details for decades, so this isn't something new.....
Visa, Mastarcard and high street banks have had access to all our financial details for decades, so this isn’t something new…..
I doubt the bank knew what your political leanings were 20 years ago, what food you bought, how much alcohol you drank, who much porn you watched, what our inane ramblings on Twitter, Facebook and Insta were...And high street banks are regulated. It isn't the same, not in the depth of information held, how they can link it together with other data about us and the purposes for doing that, and the profile they can build of us both collectively and as individuals.
You might not care, that's fine, but to deny or ignore that it's that is going on, without much public awareness, without any oversight or agreement or discussion is to my mind naïve.
Look, I'm not interested in changing your mind about whether you care or not. I can't do that. But the point I'm making is that we don't know how much data is being gathered, who has access to it, why they want it, and what they're doing with it. who else they're giving it to or sharing it with...We just don't know. That's the point. A few years ago a couple of data analysts revealed that everything we do electronically is being gathered by our own security services all the time, and that hasn't stopped, and in fact it's probably got more sophisticated and more precise.
And amazon want you to buy a flying camera drone...
No idea bout Amazon but Apple phones submit a lot less personal data than Android phones
The issue, surely, is what they do with the data. Simplistically Apple are collecting data to sell you Apple products; I don't really have a problem with that. Amazon are collecting data to sell us all sorts of products; I'm not really fussed about that either, or at least no more than I am about my Tesco Clubcard. Google (and Facebook) are collecting data to sell it; I do have an issue with that so I try to minimise what they get. But whether any of this matters to you is entirely personal.
Edit: oh, and TikTok is probably collecting data for various nefarious purposes for the Chinese government, but no-one seems to care about that either.
Agree 100% with Nickc's posts above.
Doesn't really matter how inept the current face of the government is, they're not the ones we need to worry about.
apparently not so much, as a bit of Googling suggests from multiple different sources. I guess their business model does not rely on it, in the same way Amazon and certainly Google's does. A lot of the data received e.g. on the Apple Pay platform is assigned uniquely generated IDs each time so they cannot link it to afterwards you meaning they're not tracking your purchase history, and cannot sell on that data.The issue, surely, is what they do with the data. Simplistically Apple are collecting data to sell you Apple products
https://www.macworld.com/article/348064/how-apple-collects-data-about-you-and-protects-your-privacy.html
They will happily send you all the data they have on you (which doesn't seem to be a lot!)
https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-data-collection-stored-request/
They do have targeted ads but they are trivial to opt out of!
Personal health data is stored on-device and encrypted when backed up to cloud so they can never access it. They seem to be going to great lengths to ensure everything is privacy focused tbh (recently released Air Tags for example) and often make a point of it in their keynotes.
Simplistically Apple are collecting data to sell you Apple products; I don’t really have a problem with that. Amazon are collecting data to sell us all sorts of products; I’m not really fussed about that either, or at least no more than I am about my Tesco Clubcard.
That's not the whole picture though! From Amazon's privacy page:
Examples of businesses with which we [share your data] include Starbucks, OfficeMax, Verizon Wireless, Sprint, T-Mobile, AT&T, J&R Electronics, Eddie Bauer and Northern Tool + Equipment.
What data exactly? What's the full list? Your guess is as good as anyone's.
The other issue is data leakage. For instance, before the smartphone, 'location' data wasn't really a thing. Within a decade, apps were making $21 billion a year selling your location to advertisers. Where does it go after that? Who knows. Apple don't sell your data directly, but apps on your iPhone do.
Until even more recently, up to the minute personal health records of heart rate, exercise completed etc, weren't really a thing. Fitbit promised that they'd never sell your data. Well, they're owned by Google now. Who have partnered with some very big American healthcare companies, and had their knuckles rapped in the UK for getting too intimate with NHS data. Who Who knows what that data is getting used for? Selling adverts for Slimfast? Putting up health insurance premiums for people that keep appearing to travel at 30mph round the woods in Cannock Chase?
Alexa brought voice recognition into play, Ring has added visitor info and facial recognition into the mix, this new stuff can track your movements around the house and potentially look at your stuff. In 10 years or so we'll probably know more about where this data is going and why. Maybe. Although as noted, we already know that Ring footage goes to the police, often without consent.
Incidentally I work in marketing at a uni. We've got a new Alexa Skill where a user can request a prospectus and get it emailed to them. Alexa asks if they agree to share their data, they say yes, and 5 seconds later their name and email address has passed through a Google Sheet, Zapier, and my emailing software. All perfectly above board of course.
But the absolute ease of sharing that info does make me wonder how easy it will be for young kids to sign up to sharing pretty much anything with any dubious games developer. "Astro, play Happy Monkey Challenge!" "Do you agree to share your data with Megagames PLC?"
A few years ago a couple of data analysts revealed that everything we do electronically is being gathered by our own security services all the time, and that hasn’t stopped, and in fact it’s probably got more sophisticated and more precise.
More than a few years, that was Snowden in 2013. GCHQ have taps on all the undersea internet pipes in and out of the UK and metadata on everything being sent is hoovered up. That's been known in the public domain for years. Same in the US, there's a huge NSA datacentre in Utah Valley swallowing up pretty much all the USA's internet traffic.
Without changing the law, everything you do online is being hoovered up the security services (or rather meta data is), probably by several different countries as well.
As for why I'm not bothered, with every risk you need to weigh the probability of it happening (eg someone abusing my data they've bought from Amazon) and multiple by the actual cost of that effect on me (as in what damage it does) ie E[p]. Then weigh it up against all of life's other possible risks. Obviously it's all subjective but it doesn't make my top 10, so I'm not going to waste any time worrying about it.
I freely use all the big bad boy's services (Apple, Facebook, Amazon and Google) and not one of them has ever impressed me with their ability to use my data and offer anything interesting with it. E.g./ Youtube almost exclusively promotes things I'm not interested in, Amazon can't even work out which books I've bought from them etc. They may have lots of data, but they don't seem able to do much with it.
A few years ago a couple of data analysts revealed that everything we do electronically is being gathered by our own security services all the time,
Hmm, so they have a file on all of us?
so they have a file on all of us?
One file with absolutely everyone and everything that he have done and are doing in it. Then if 'they' need any info they know exactly where to find it - its in the file.
Fitbit promised that they’d never sell your data. Well, they’re owned by Google now.
One reason why I ditched my Fitbit for an Apple watch. The other reason being that the Fitbit was crap.
No, also you could just not connect it to the internet. I have an old smart TV that isn’t connected an just use a Roku for watching what I want through it.
Exactly this, but with Apple TV box connected instead of Roku.
I'm kind of looking forward to trying Siri when I get my first iPhone. Bixby on Samsung is poor so I don't bother with it, I just put Poweramp on shuffle all songs before I drive. As an aside to this thread.... does Siri play nice with Spotify or am I going to have to switch to Apple music for hands free operation in car?
I bought a ring doorbell, before they were bought by amazon, so that when I was out I could tell the hermes guy to put the parcel not in the bin but behind the bin, and also so that I didn't have to answer when the chancer calls who wants to sell me a new roof when he can see from the road that a tile has slipped.
Anyway, I notice now when I log in to the ring app it boldly states that their mission is to "reduce crime in neighbourhoods".
I hate to get all godwin's law (although of course its inevitable, dems the rules) and stasi-ish but amazon/ring are openly saying 'our mission is to build a video surveillance network so that we can help catch crims' - as in they're our new under-police force who can work out the crims from the not crims, and share all the data and video they have if they need to because a crim is dangerous and no one wants dangerous crims about. So in effect I'm watching you - crim. And don't worry if you're not a crim because amazon can tell if you buy stuff from them and you will be ok.
My view is that is creepy in every sense of the word. You - outside my front door, can unplug your tv from the internet and not speak to alexa as much as you like, but we're watching you walk past and you can't stop us watching you.
So I'm with team paranoia - things are not going in the right direction if we don't do something - human nature is to push boundaries, and the boundaries on sharing data already seem to be strained - if not already broken. It's a cliche but we are in danger of sleep-walking into something our children are going to have a really hard time undoing.
Still, it's convenient that I don't have my hermes parcels taken away by the bin men once a week - so I'm thinking a reasonable compromise is to cancel prime and disconnect my tv from the internet, for a month.
This is the thing, even if you opt out your friends/neighbours/FB friends etc will still be sharing an awful lot of information about you, mostly unwittingly.
In the last decade big tech companies have risen from nowhere to dominate the planet.
Just a decade ago there was a mix of tech, banks, oil, cars, comerce etc at the top of whatever metric you care to use (market cap, total revenue etc)
Now its pure tech and they literally shape our world, terraforming our behaviour to fit their values, values that are completely at odds with important issues like climate change, child poverty, political accountability and human individuality.
They can do this through the use of big data sets. They aren't interested in you but they are very much interested in us. Big data gives them huge power and that gives them untold wealth, with which they can continue to distort the future of our planet.
Anyone who thinks they 'can't seem to do much with our data' is a fool. Its the new gold rush and like that old frontier, once again the law is struggling to keep up.