The degree to which home surveillance is being embraced for the sake of convenience is beyond parody. If you'd have read this in a Sci-Fi novel 10 years ago, it would've seemed comedic
A flying home security camera drone, a "smart screen for kids" and a rolling facial recognition surveillance robot - All perfectly normal things for a tech company to sell to the public in 2021
I saw that, it can get in the sea. I won't even have Alexa or similar I find it creepy af.
Well there's two things going on here. It might be sinister, and it might not. These devices are fun and quite useful, to a lot of people. Maybe not you, but to others. So it would be strange for them to say no, sorry you cannot have this cool thing because other people don't like it.
The only issue I can see is that of trusting them to only do what they say they are going to do with the data. I don't mind if Amazon know what I've bought so they can advertise to me; but I might mind if they do other stuff. And that is what we could perhaps work on.
All the best product managers these days are basically reading old sci-if books from the 60’s-90’s and pitching the ideas 😂
but I might mind if they do other stuff
So, for instance if you plug in that flying camera drone, and the first thing it does is fly around your home "to get its bearings"... and Amazon now can see what your house layout is, and what you've got in it. That's not OK with you? Or how about the authorities getting access to it, or requiring it's installation for virtual social care visits?
The more I think "oh, it'll be OK" the more often I'm proved hopelessly naïve and wrong.
Ignoring the Amazon element for a moment, the 15" wall mounted tablet to show an aggregation of the households' calendar, plus also the meal plan and shopping list would be really handy - especially as it could show the recipe whilst cooking.
The Astro looks great fun, would love something like that from a more privacy-focused company! (slight tangent, Apple are starting to make use of the ML chips in their newer stuff by processing some of the voice-assistant stuff locally now, which is encouraging!)
I'm gonna keep an eye on the hobby groups & see if someone comes up with an open-source version! You could easily repurpose a robot hoover as the main robot chassis.
easily DIY-able with the open-source Home Assistant, but does require a bit of technical ability to tie it all togetherIgnoring the Amazon element for a moment, the 15″ wall mounted tablet to show an aggregation of the households’ calendar, plus also the meal plan and shopping list would be really handy – especially as it could show the recipe whilst cooking.
Also worth re-stating the adage "if you're not paying for the service with money, you're paying for it with something else"?
It might be sinister, and it might not.
Disagree. The ability itself - the mere existence of the tech - is sinister. That it is being brought to market by Amazon, whose service is awash with dark patterns just emphasises that, for me.
Amazon now can see what your house layout is, and what you’ve got in it. That’s not OK with you? Or how about the authorities getting access to it, or requiring it’s installation for virtual social care visits?
I honestly don't care if Amazon see what's in my house. I might care if the authorities did it and then became hostile to me somehow. And that's my point about trust. TBH if you get to the point where the authorities want to know what's in your house then you/we are in a bit of trouble anyway because it's their desire to do so that's the problem, and they will make life shitty somehow or other with or without smart speakers because they are the authorities.
the mere existence of the tech – is sinister
Microphones and recording devices have existed for a long time. These smart devices aren't really any big innovation, they are just a mass market use for it. I don't find it sinister because if I want privacy I can just unplug it. People are drawing parallels with 1984 of course but in that you HAD to have the telescreen on all the time and you were prohibited from concealing yourself from Big Brother. You can still opt out of Amazon. If it gets to the point where you can't, then I'll start worrying.
The ability itself – the mere existence of the tech – is sinister.
Yep. The Chinese have cameras on motorways, and they take pictures of every car that goes past to track where they're going, and the rate their citizens on a social mobile app that allow them "privileges" like foreign (and even domestic) travel and we rightly call it a corrosively intrusive surveillance state.
Amazon do the same thing, and it's a handy screen to see the families calendar in one place or check who's at the door. The double standards are, like I say, beyond parody
I honestly don’t care if Amazon see what’s in my house. I might care if the authorities did it and then became hostile to me somehow.
How about if there's a data breach at Amazon and your info goes up for sale on the web? Or GCHQ hack Amazon for info about some bad guys, because it's only ever the bad guys and there's never over reach, is there? Or "the state" subpoenas your info and Amazon give it up?
You seem to believe in the "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" fallacy, but I don't.
How about if there’s a data breach at Amazon and your info goes up for sale on the web? Or GCHQ hack Amazon for info about some bad guys, because it’s only ever the bad guys and there’s never over reach, is there? Or “the state” subpoenas your info and Amazon give it up?
then some bad guys would know I live a pretty boring life and have few things worth stealing inside my house. The state would know I occationally have a couple more beers than I probably should. I'm ok with all that.
Microphones and recording devices have existed for a long time. These smart devices aren’t really any big innovation, they are just a mass market use for it. I
This is really really daft.
It's like saying nuclear weapons aren't a big deal because people have been throwing pointy rocks for millennia.
Look, you are all bloody paranoid. It is only like the police and government using phone taps and surveillance.
If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear.
The only people with that information are the police and the government so there is no danger of corruption, incompetence or both.
😉
Yup and there's simply no chance that someone could hack that information, or it will be leaked through incompetence, or bought illegitimately, or that they will use it for stuff they aren't allowed to.
Microphones and recording devices have existed for a long time. These smart devices aren’t really any big innovation, they are just a mass market use for it. I don’t find it sinister because if I want privacy I can just unplug it. People are drawing parallels with 1984 of course but in that you HAD to have the telescreen on all the time and you were prohibited from concealing yourself from Big Brother. You can still opt out of Amazon. If it gets to the point where you can’t, then I’ll start worrying.
At the point where you can't opt out, you might as well STOP worrying, because it's too late to do anything about it.
And yes microphones have existed for a long time, but what hasn't, is the ability to aggregate data and cross reference it, pretty much in real time, against multiple other data points. Which makes this a whole different kettle of fish.
How about if there’s a data breach at Amazon and your info goes up for sale on the web?
This has already happened with Ring doorbells
Or “the state” subpoenas your info and Amazon give it up?
Are Bacofoil on the stock market? I think I might invest.
The Chinese have cameras on motorways, and they take pictures of every car that goes past to track where they’re going
Pretty sure the British do the same thing. Certainly a lot more than the rest of Europe.
We do have some cameras on motorways. We had a missing person's search last year and the police wouldn't tell us where the cameras were, but it seemed to be less than one per junction.
I like tech & consider myself relatively geeky, but maybe I'm actually a luddite or maybe I'm just a bit unimaginative, but I just can't see the point in all this stuff. It just seems a bit more than I can be arsed with.
We've got a couple of Google smart speakers around the house. All they get used for is listening to music/podcasts and setting timers in the kitchen. Very rarely we might ask Google a question but it's normally nothing particularly important.
The drone thing? Eh, what?
The robot helper thing. Oh, it can bring you a beer. Wow. Just get up & go to the fridge. It can check whether the gas is on. Woooo! How have we coped without a periscope camera robot....?
Oh look, Granny is chasing little Trixibelle around the living room again......MUMMMMMMYYY, SHE'S SCARING ME.......!!
But having someone go through my Wife's car a few months ago when she left it unlocked, I have been looking at 'smart camera doorbells' so maybe some of this stuff is useful.
and Amazon now can see
I'd be interested to know: What does this actually mean, in your head?
Pretty sure the British do the same thing
There are something like 8000 PNC enabled cameras, most are on the motorway and A road network and some filling stations. You can search for a number plate. Off that network, it doesn't work, and you can't see where a car goes regardless. China has a camera on every m-way and road system junction and actively photos every car passing with enough resolution to see the driver and passenger and can actively track the car and can (if needed) check against journey time, and arrival/departure times...It's slightly different
Are Bacofoil on the stock market? I think I might invest.
How is it a conspiracy theory to not want to give Amazon even more data to help their ridiculous dominance and mass flogging of unsustainable shite?
Amazon (Ring doorbells) and US Law Enforcement https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-03/amazon-s-ring-will-ask-police-to-publicly-request-user-videos
The technology, it’s application and potential for misuse / abuse is only in its infancy.
What does this actually mean, in your head?
Well, *in my head*, it means Amazon creating vast spreadsheets with which to feed their various learning and analytics programs. Yes my data is just one cell on a sheet of millions, 'anonymised' to some extent (although probably not to the extent they'd have us believe) ... but the point is, it's *my* data not theirs. If they want to use it to generate profit, at least give me a share of that profit 🙂 (Isn't this part of of what Inrupt does?)
It also means me giving up my privacy to feed Amazon's profits, and giving it up to capitalism in general, which I am not happy about as it goes.
What if a political party (one you don't support, say) assigned a person to follow you whenever you left the house, to track and take note of every place you visited and every person you met, and what you did with them, and never told you how that data would be used, only that it would be used whenever and however it suited them?
Would you be happy with that?
And then, what if that person started coming indoors with you, to document everything you did at home, when, how and why ... would you be happy with that (in your head)?
I know that some banks are already playing with the idea of hiding certain products and information from certain people, based on the bank's infant AI's profiling of visitors.
It should be illegal.
It should be illegal.
It is illegal under the GDPR - unless you blindly click on 'accept all'
What does this actually mean, in your head?
Amazon would like to sell me their stuff, as Grum points out at the very least that's unsustainable and the interests of a few (mostly) middle aged white men who're getting ludicrously and obscenely wealthy. For the rest of us, it's unnecessary, wasteful and as it turns out massively damaging to the one place we have to live. So on that basis alone, these shouldn't be on sale.
In my wilder flights of fancy (that invariably turn out to be underestimates of what they have in mind) I see a system that actively monitors what I'm watching, listening to, and what they might think I might want to buy from them because of the absence of that item. I imagine that the drone camera can not only see things, it can probably ping items connected to my wi-fi and interrogate them for the data they hold and use that to sell me shit I don't need/want. You don't want to get me started on my thoughts about govts getting hold of the data.
Don't get me started on the way companies nudge people to click 'Accept all' cookies instead of 'Reject all' or 'Only those necessary' grrrr.
Don’t get me started on the way companies nudge people to click ‘Accept all’ cookies instead of ‘Reject all’ or ‘Only those necessary’ grrrr.
It's a requirement that the 'reject' button be as easy to find/click as the 'accept all' button. Which almost every site seems to violate by making you click & scroll to 'reject all' (or worse, making you untick about 10 individual boxes). Maddening.
I honestly don’t care if Amazon see what’s in my house. I might care if the authorities did it and then became hostile to me somehow.
Ok so hypothetically amazon looks at everything in your house, matches it to its database then starts using that to market shit to you. Oh he likes red stuff, show the red version first for each thing we list. Oh, that's an old TV he has, show him new TVs. Oh he has an acoustic guitar on the sofa, lets recommend him some music. etc. Some people might even see that as helpful, customising their positioning to suit your needs/taste. BUT they aren't doing that to give YOU an easier life they are doing it either so you buy from THEM or you buy stuff you wouldn't have bought at all...
TBH if you get to the point where the authorities want to know what’s in your house then you/we are in a bit of trouble anyway
Perhaps if they are saying whats in Mr Jones at no 3's house then something is making them suspicious and eventually they may find enough basis for that suspicion to justify a warrant to come and look. But what if they aren't looking for Mr Jones at no 3 - but rather anyone who shouted at their TV when Borris was on, or perhaps people who lie on their sofa for more than 3 hours per day, or people who bought bikes on cycle to work but only use it at the weekends.
I see a system that actively monitors what I’m watching, listening to
I assume amazon already knows that about me as I mostly listen to spotify on thier devices and tv through their devices. If it helps their aweful recommendation services catch up with spotify's (which are excellent) I'm all for it.
BUT they aren’t doing that to give YOU an easier life they are doing it either so you buy from THEM or you buy stuff you wouldn’t have bought at all…
Of course they're not being altruistic, but if they know I like red stuff and show me red stuff first, so I don't have to scroll past blue stuff? great.
I used to read the comic 200AD as a kid. There was a story about a guy who ran a pharmacy with automatic stock ordering linked to the rest of the Megatropolis systems (possibly before the internet was really a thing).
He was surprised one day to receive a load of baby medicines and then later that day the authorities opened a temporary child health screening clinic opposite. That seemed useful he thought.
He then received a load of trauma dressings which worried him just as a train derailed nearby. Apparently the last two maintenance visits and a report of a loose rail had been flagged as delayed on the system. A bit unfortunate but useful.
This kept happening until he received a load of antiradiation suits just as he saw the mushroom rise in the distance and realised the Megatroposis computers had linked with the rival states weapon system computers.
Not sure if this is useful but the thread reminded me of the story.
BTW, did you realise that most smart TVs record all conversation in the room and pipe it back the the manufacturers to harvest?
Of course they’re not being altruistic, but if they know I like red stuff and show me red stuff first, so I don’t have to scroll past blue stuff? great.
Naïve, much?
(They're not doing all this stuff to make your life easier.)
That's also a very simplistic reading of how Amazon uses your data. The truth of it is far more manipulative.
Of course they’re not being altruistic, but if they know I like red stuff and show me red stuff first, so I don’t have to scroll past blue stuff? great.
How about if they see that you have a large collection of whiskey, and then your car insurance premiums (or health insurance) goes up, because the insurance companies are buying that data from Amazon? Or perhaps your N+1 bikes, and your contents insurance is affected (or you get a letter from HMRC about the C2W scheme...)
This info is all valuable to someone, and Amazon won't hesitate to sell it if they can get a couple of £ out of it. There'll be a legal waiver that you accepted on page 381 of the T&Cs.
I’m all for it.
Spoken like only one who's lived a life of privilege can. Perhaps you'd have a different view if you lived somewhere with less freedom and more secret police.
Let's hope it stays that way for everyone's sake, eh?
Amazon do the same thing
No, it's a completely different thing because Amazon is optional and Chinese state surveillance is mandatory. That's the key point. If we learn one day in the future that Amazon are doing something actually nefarious rather than just flogging tat I will simply bin it all, because I can.
If Amazon becomes mandatory then them knowing what's in your living room is the least of your worries I suspect.
I think you should all be much more worried about the actions of the state.
I think you should all be much more worried about the actions of the state.
Like, say, grabbing footage from Amazon devices to clamp down on Black Lives Matter protestors?
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/02/lapd-requested-ring-footage-black-lives-matter-protests
I like tech & consider myself relatively geeky, but maybe I’m actually a luddite or maybe I’m just a bit unimaginative, but I just can’t see the point in all this stuff. It just seems a bit more than I can be arsed with.
We’ve got a couple of Google smart speakers around the house. All they get used for is listening to music/podcasts and setting timers in the kitchen. Very rarely we might ask Google a question but it’s normally nothing particularly important.
I think for a lot of people its just a bit of novelty - the majority of people who own one may well speak to a smart speaker for the purpose of choosing music or looking up a recipe or something similarly scintillating - but they'll do that whilst having the technology to do just that in their pocket, without having to include the whole room in the transaction.
I think the really useful outcome is for people with disabilities.
Take blindness for example - not at the top of anyone's list of preferred disabilities - but as we've become more and more of a screen and information based culture the degree of isolation and disadvantage blindness brings has increased. The benefit of having a smart speaker in your house - to society broadly rather than yourself - is you're participating in, and crowd funding, the development of an internet that isn't principally visual and text based.
So there are benefits to the technology its just not really a meaningful benefit to most of the people who've bought into it.
That’s the key point.
Or that of Grum's who quite rightly identified that its all plastic shit that no one really needs in the first place and we should all stop buying it.
Naïve, much?
(They’re not doing all this stuff to make your life easier.)
how is it naive? I acknowledge they're doing this to sell more stuff, by making their site better. That's fine. I use their site a lot. if its better, I'm all for it.
I'm not naive, I just don't care.
Oh he likes red stuff, show the red version first for each thing we list.
I think thats more than a little at odds with how Amazon actually operates their searches 🙂
It seems like the more specific your search the more irrelevant garbage they offer you. I've often given up on amazon looking for something, looked on google instead and get a page of results of exactly what I need... all on amazon. Amazon's rationale seems very much about them driving you towards what they want to sell rather that what you want to buy
(typed by a man currently working in a warehouse... for Amazon)
how is it naive? I acknowledge they’re doing this to sell more stuff, by making their site better. That’s fine. I use their site a lot. if its better, I’m all for it.
It's not just about selling products to you though.
It's also about selling you and your data to third parties. And perhaps the data of anyone else it can get its hands on - for instance other people that visit your home, that the cameras can pick up with facial recognition.
Facebook already got in trouble for violating privacy when it suggested 'people you might know' to patients at the same doctor's - because it noticed they regularly visited the same place. Throw facial recognition into the mix, combined with a network of doorbells that can watch you walk round the city, and who knows what interesting data they'll be able to put together?
It's not for me, I'm usually sat in front of a PC or have smart phone in my pocket anyway.
I can understand it from a convinience point of view, especialy if you live in a flat so you cant have a big sound system set up.
But it's not for me 😀
It’s also about selling you and your data to third parties. And perhaps the data of anyone else it can get its hands on – for instance other people that visit your home, that the cameras can pick up with facial recognition.
Facebook already got in trouble for violating privacy when it suggested ‘people you might know’ to patients at the same doctor’s – because it noticed they regularly visited the same place. Throw facial recognition into the mix, combined with a network of doorbells that can watch you walk round the city, and who knows what interesting data they’ll be able to put together?
I don't care about any of that either. So what if someone knows my buddy is Joey and I go biking with Will? either that may lead to more bike shops in the area (find me places where middle class cyclists live) or they'll throw me an ad for a pub doing a nice pint after an hour of riding. I'm good with that too