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It seems the advice is when driving on snow, when you need to brake do so by braking hard and keep braking until the ABS kicks in and drive out of the situation.......
Now i would call that plain stupid, am i missing something?
How about observation and reading the road & conditions so you don't need to panic brake?
Or is that utterly rediculous in this day and age?
from interweb
When stopping plan well in advance, apply the brakes gently, and slowly add pressure rather than fast sudden braking. Intersections are often extremely icy so do not rely on being able to come to a stop in your normal bare pavement zone. If your car is equipped with anti-lock brakes, the best thing you can do to stop the car quickly is to apply firm constant pressure to the brake pedal. The ABS system will maintain traction, and you will be able to steer the car during braking.
Yes that does sound stupid
I live on a cul de sac. I often try some breaking well away from all cars and people to see how quickly the anti lock kicks in. Its a way of getting a feel for how bad conditions are. I'm talking about braking from say 7 mph
I think that they may have meant if you need to make an emergency stop then and you have ABS then you should use it. Get your foot hard on the brake whatever the conditions
In deeper fresh snow on top of ice ABS is a disadvantage . With no ABS a locked wheel builds up a big triangle of snow in front of it like a snow plough. An abs braked wheel just keeps on unlocking and skidding over the snow .
Best way is to drive as if you have no brakes, so engine braking only. On icey roads a deisel can still lock up the wheels with a swift downchange and a clutch dump on a idling engine . Smoothness is essential , as are snow tyres really ( ones with a snowflake symbol on them , not cheapo M+S ones )
With no ABS a locked wheel builds up a big triangle of snow in front of it like a snow plough
So if we need to clear some snow with the impending white holocaust, we just need to find someone with a car without ABS (and who doesn't care too much about it). 😀
They surely didn't really say that did they? really? really really?
I think they said "brake hard as you are skidding anyway" which seems to make sense to me but then
In deeper fresh snow on top of ice ABS is a disadvantage . With no ABS a locked wheel builds up a big triangle of snow in front of it like a snow plough. An abs braked wheel just keeps on unlocking and skidding over the snow .
so now not sure...
When I am in a car I am superior in every way, I don't need any technological assistance I AM A DRIVING GOD!
Yeah a triangle of snow is way better than ABS for stopping you on ice, car manufacturers are due to release car in the next few years with snow machines that will put snow in front of your wheels to stop you.
ABS switches the breaks on and off quickly to reduce the locking risk. I was taught to break by rapidly pressing the break pedal firmly at times of a 4 wheel skid, this was when I did my driving for work many moons ago before ABS became standard.
For some people that might not be bad advice. Being experienced and knowing how to control a vehicle on snow / ice is better than ABS, but ABS is better than being clueless and flailing about. Maybe.
As an aside, I changed cars recently, and in the handbook for the new one it specifically says to switch off ABS in snow.
When I had my old subaru, and was driving across the moors and there was no-one else about, in the snow, sometimes for fun I would stamp on the brakes, and lock the wheels, and skid down the road (only very slowly like 10mph) for a hundred yards or so.
My abs worked, when breaking sensibly on icey roads I could hear/feel it kick in now and then.
But when I did that it honestly seemed to believe I had stopped and did nothing. Maybe modern abs is better and more sensitive, but not everyone has awesome new cars with great abs. I call bullshit on this.
ABS is better than being clueless and flailing about
there is always that.
On ice or frozen snow I found that threshold braking was at least 50% more efficient than stamping on the brakes and letting the ABS slither around. This is also what was recommended on a skid-training course.
ABS isn't really designed to reduce stopping distance; it's to help you steer around an obstacle. So, in reality, if you can see a clear path you probably are better off throwing out the anchors and relying on the ABS and ESP to get you around it.
Unavoidable head-on collision? Careful threshold braking. But I probably wouldn't think to do that if I was sliding inexorably towards another car / wall / person etc so the BBC's advice, while not perfect, is safe.
[i]For some people that might not be bad advice. Being experienced and knowing how to control a vehicle on snow / ice is better than ABS, but ABS is better than being clueless and flailing about. Maybe.[/i]
Since the majority of cars have ABS now, the ability to drive without it is probably about as useful in the modern world as been able sow your own corn...
To get the snow 'build-up' with ABS you need it to 'kick-in', so knowing how to do this is important.
Threshold braking that's the name I was looking for that's what ABS mimics.
I'd go along with Drac and Flaperon. When I did ice training and skidpan training pre ABS we were taught hard cadence braking, totally counter-intuitive but effective. But, that is for emergency braking.
So, whilst the BBC advice may be correct for emergency braking in icy conditions, reading the road conditions and driving accordingly would be better advice, ie using correct gears, engine braking, anticipation.
Cadence braking can also be effective to stop a wheel spinning to gain traction. And, again totally counter-intuitive, often the best way to stop a slide is to accelerate gently and get the wheels turning again.
This is my experience anyway from the days before electronic gadgetry doing everything for you on cars and signs everywhere to save you having to read the road 8)
Good to see SurfMat didn't leave the forum totally bereft.
+1 for learning cadence braking. And reading the road, you're less likely to get into trouble in the first place.
If you are going to brake hard on snow or ice for any reason dip the clutch, otherwise locking the wheels could stall the engine and you'd be in an even worse mess.
I saw that piece this morning - it was woefully badly cut. It was as though they'd planned a 3 min sections ad then just ripped out the middle two and a half. SUspect it lost a lot of context in the process.
I tend to go with the Planning-ahead-thus-avoiding-the-need-to-brake philosophy (although I appreciate that this doesn't cover all eventualities).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20997094
was this it?
Nothing about turning into the skid? Is that just too 2010?
The point of ABS is not to stop you quicker, it's there to allow you to maintain control over the car.
I hate mine in the snow and ice. It's really sensitive so you have little choice. You can no longer gauge what kind of traction you have once it kicks in and I find it sends you into a bit of a panic, where you don;t have much choice but to stamp on it and hope for the best. Other cars I've owned haven't been anywhere near as bad.
Stupid advice though. In most circumstances you don't really [i]need[/i] to use your brakes at all.
Yes, that's dodgy advice, in a sense, but it does assume you're already in a situation you can't get out of (i.e. if you're already skidding toward a vehicle you're going to hit). At which point you have little other choice and ABS will help you out. I presume they're trying to avoid what a lot of people seem to do and let go of everything and gingerly touch the brakes leaving the avoiding bit way too late (meaning the impact is at a higher speed than it needed to be). In a similar way to the fact that some modern ABS systems actually ram the brakes on 100% for you because our natural reaction is to be careful even in an emergency brake situation, oddly.
Swedish teachings;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadence_braking
That's dodgy advice if you have ABS, nothing makes ABS more pointless and struggle to control the car more than constantly fluctuating command signals by the driver!
ABS will stop you faster in just about any situation other than thick snow, gravel and solid ice. From my own experiments in stopping distances (I like to know how my car reacts):
No ABS stops you fastest but with least control over direction if you close your eyes and hold the wheel straight.
No ABS with counter-steering is possible and stops you in about the same distance, but it's hard to keep straight and that's assuming you don't have a 9 year old on a sledge in front of your car.
ABS takes quite a lot longer to stop (IIRC about 2 car lengths from 30) but allows full control of the steering and keeps the car straight if you hold the wheel straight, meaning you could steer around the child. Which is pretty much exactly what it was designed to do.
If you hit ice there's nothing you can do, ABS won't help, you'll be spinning wildly so plan an exit strategy (i.e. if something looks like an icy patch approach it in a way that means that if you lose control you won't exit into a pavement full of kids). Or if it's that bad weather, don't drive unless you have to.
The advice I was always given and stick to (seems to work) is drive carefully, to the distance you can stop not to the speed limit, and if you have to brake do so gently and no harsh actions, if your ABS kicks in keep your foot planted and steer to safety. Otherwise, use your gears to decelerate and plan well ahead.
I love driving in snow, it's a genuine joy of mine - I'll get up and go for a drive for fun at 3am if it starts snowing!
Just get winter tyres and stop worrying about it.
It's an interesting one right enough. What I do is drive in a way that keeps maximum traction and driving to the conditions. If I have made a mistake in the snow or think that there is potential for the car to slide I will deliberately set the car sliding as I find it much easier to control a slide that I've initiated than reacting to one that I haven't. There's also a lot to be said for engine braking in slippery conditions rather than using the brakes to do it.
what a bunch of Kn***. keep your distance, keep you speed under control, keep OFF the brakes, use the gears, thats the way I was taught over 30 years ago, driven everything from trucks, tractors to cars, from 5 months driving in snow/ice in the US in the winter were we would get 3 foot snow a night, to the piddly little amount of snow we get here. 😥
Engine braking every time. Only time I've had a car go sideways was when I was approaching a side turning, changed down a couple of times well in advance so I was only doing 10-15mph, and turned, only to have the car slide sideways onto the grass verge and into a bit of a ditch. Turning into the skid would have put me nose first into the same verge and ditch! And probably the hedge behind. I got out by rocking the car back and forth in first and reverse. Trouble is, it's a bit of road with fields behind the hedges, and after heavy rain, a huge puddle gathers across the road right on the junction, so if it freezes, it's [i]very[/i] iffy!
Advice on the BBC missed something.
[i]"unless it's a cyclist in front of you then carry on regardless"[/i]
The usual confusion here between threshold braking and cadence braking. Cadence braking is pointless in a modern car. Threshold braking is gently and progressively applying the brakes until the wheels lock, and backing off slightly. Doing this carefully is much better than ABS which has a fairly slow brake-and-release cycle.
On anything other than a slippery surface, jump on the brakes as hard as you can, as the ABS can keep the wheels close to 10% slip.
If the car has some form of stability protection, you're unlikely to be in the uncontrollable skid in the first place.
Instructors don't say “steer into the skid" any more because it's a natural and instinctive response. Why complicate it.
Steer into the skid has a lot of potential for folk to go to the complete opposite lock and end up in the opposite ditch when the wheels finally find traction. A better way of saying it is to get the front wheels pointing in the direction you want to go.
Gun it into a corner, handful of handbrake, touch of oppo, get back on the power with your arm out the window middle finger in the air screaming "I am a driving god"
I'm a bit worried people on here think they can turn off ABS in their car...
Rachel
ABS can't help that much if they're using crap summer tyres which most of them do, the reason the Continentals don't have as much trouble as the Brits, they change to winter tyres every October, and in some countries like Germany it's the law.
Would save thousands in lost hours and jams if the same were the case here.
The advice was for if you're spinning out of control, and they had a guy on a skid pan demonstrating it.
They went through all the usual ease off the accelerator if you sense the car skidding, not to stamp on the brakes and slowing down gradually and that winter tyres are better in the cold. But that doesn't give STW the sense of self righteous indignation and know-it-all-ness does it?
I'm a bit worried people on here think they can turn off ABS in their car...Rachel
All you need to do is pull the correct fuse.
Pre ABS, on snow, I used to pump my brakes when I needed to stop. Worked every time.
Don't venture out in snow these days - the popular misconceptions about snow driving, general ignorance and incompetence of others regarding this type of driving means you are highly likely to get stuck somewhere, or in an accident.
Pre ABS, on snow, I used to pump my brakes when I needed to stop. Worked every time.
Don't venture out in snow these days - the popular misconceptions about snow driving, general ignorance and incompetence of others regarding this type of driving means you are highly likely to get stuck somewhere, or in an accident.
Just for you Drac
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/roadsafety/tp-tp13082-abs2_e-215.htm
http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f68/abs-snow-65699/
http://www.fiatforum.com/panda/139452-abs-snow-im-amazed.html
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/1982344
http://www.smedayton.org/downloads/Reid%20Article,%20ABS%20Brakes.pdf
see i just make it up
nothing , anywhere on the www says its quicker to stop without abs on fresh snow . then we get some smarty pants comments about manufacturers putting snow making machines on the front of cars
just because you are told something does not make it fact
nothing , anywhere on the www says its quicker to stop without abs on fresh snow . then we get some smarty pants comments about manufacturers putting snow making machines on the front of cars
I actually thought he was trolling?
nothing , anywhere on the www says its quicker to stop without abs on fresh snow . then we get some smarty pants comments about manufacturers putting snow making machines on the front of cars
Glad you had time to go through the entire internet but didn't have time to read my post as I didn't say it was. You do also realise I was mocking the silly comment of how snow can stop a car better than snow, right you did didn't?
In deeper fresh snow on top of ice ABS is a disadvantage . With no ABS a locked wheel builds up a big triangle of snow in front of it like a snow plough.
Tyres are the secret, thousands of cars driving over here on slippy icey roads. Oh and a clever use of the force.