What I do care is that of their own volition they do whatever is required to ensure their work does not suffer (take a bit home, come in early next day etc).
If staff are regularly required to do this, you're under resourced. Another sign of poor management.
Do you get paid sick pay. ? If yes and you have a clean sick record (if it was me) I would phone in sick go to your GP and tell them you have stress due to work...send a letter to HR explaining every thing you have told us.
It sounds like bullying and NO body should have to put up with it in..
Hope every thing turns out ok for you.. I have been in a simler position 2years ago and it not a good place to be.
So your experience fine and mine extrapolation and your experience is objective and mine is subjective
comedy gold
I think despite the miracle of copy and paste you are simply being obtuse. From your extrapolation you are jumping to a conclusion and from my experience I am saying we simply dont know.
You are jumping to a conclusion I am saying we dont have enough evidence.
If you cant see the difference between those two positions I really despair. Comedy gold is right.
Sorry I ask you about proof of extrapolation and you comment on the use of the words facts. I think we have all established you have no opinion because we have no facts to work with hence why you are expressing no opinion so clearly.
You do realise this makes no sense dont you. with regard to your use of the work "facts" the point (as you know) that I was making was you have taken the OPs post and then presented it as a "fact" upon which to base your following arguments. That is extrapolation.
well everyoine else worked late and got two hours toil and he got one.
Well according to the OP but without evidence we cant be sure that the process was followed consistently. Again you are now presenting this as a fair reflection of events.
I was actually refering in my post to the "fact" that many other posters on here where sceptical of the OP's performance given some of the other items he mentions. I think you may have deliberatley misunderstood this 😉
PS as it it is your objective [sic] experience that employers will pay you for not working - do you have any contacts in this industry as I am very keen to not work and get paid.
Again I have made it very clear that the flexibility that we both agree is a good thing (you did agree that didnt you :roll:) means that this may be manifested by somebody coming in late or leaving early. By definition this means that they are being paid for not being there. I hope I have made that clear for you.
Why dont you guess at what theyu are whilst criticising me for "extrapolating
This is trully brilliant stuff
I am criticising you for extrapolating based on your prejudice. What has guessing mean in this context? did this make sense when you wrote it?
Anyway before the lock and the ban hammer I shall leave you and other to it
Well really given your first page smart arse post that was condescending 😀 and in that post you said you were leaving IIRC but you are still here 😀
again I am not extrapolating - you have yet to show this tbhFrom your extrapolation you are jumping to a conclusion and from my experience I am saying we simply dont know.
You using your experience and applying it to this situation is extrapolation or a guess. You either think it is ok or you think it is not ok
Your current position of thinking it is only ok when you do it and bias and prejudice when you think someone else does it is nonsensical [and amusing]
Well according to the OP but without evidence we cant be sure that the process was followed consistently. Again you are now presenting this as a fair reflection of events.
You have no evidence to think it is not true and why join a thread if all you will say is the OP might be lying? It seems pointless not to mention a biased prejudicial extrapolation 😉
you might be lying about your experience - would it help if I assumed that?Would it help if we just assume every poster is lying.It would make all this a bit [more] pointless if we did this.
I have made it very clear that the flexibility that we both agree is a good thing (you did agree that didnt you :roll:)
yes i said it explicitly a few posts before your said i was inflexible so I had to repeat it till you got it- still well done for remembering it this time. I am proud of you.
[b]What has guessing mean in this context?[/b] did this make sense when you wrote it?
Well did it 😀 One of your best so far
PS Did you say whether you thought it was good management or not ?
Oh no of course not we are still doing this
I wonder if it's possible to bore a person to death...
Thing is, you can't take anything anyone says here anywhere at face value, there is always room for doubt. But if every response to every thread is "Well, that's just one version of events" then things'll get pretty dull fast. Though obviously still not as dull as a big hitter type-off.
"Dear Singletrack, yesterday I cracked my frame, what new frame should I get?"
"We've only got your word that the frame's cracked! I think you should keep your old frame"
wow it's a big hitter quote fuction shoot out 🙂
Speak to Unison. Even if you aren't a member they should be able to give you some advice about the situation in terms of employment law.
Also at a uni and they have helped me in the past, although am a member.
Or just go ahead and join...
Jeez just flash read the last 2 pages.
Some of that bollox up there is why I think unions should be abolished. They were necessary for their time but now just hark back to a bygone time in the workplace.
It's all been said up there, on my experience of managing quite a lot of people the vast majority of performance issues in a dept come from a small number of people, who seem maybe through severe bad luck have lots of stuff go wrong, regualrly.
If you think you can do better get another job. If not get your head down and stop giving people reasons to fire you. That post about sick leave with stress is another golden bit of evidence about how these people abuse the system.
Jobs aren't a right, a lot of people out there would love your job....
This is all far easier in law firms.
If someone isn't very good, their work rapidly piles up as they burn the midnight oil trying to stay afloat and deal with vicious negative criticism and being ignored by their superiors. After a while, they suffer a nervous breakdown and swiftly leave.
I believe we have an HR department, but I think it deals chiefly with pregnant women and the creation of baroque performance appraisal forms that are irrelevant as you are either (a) doing OK, but could work harder or (b) under the care of a psychiatrist and looking for a new job.
🙂
wow it's a big hitter quote fuction shoot out
I thought I could compete but even I lost the will to live and could barely recall what I was trying to say. I had flashbacks to the TJ days where you simply get beaten by a persons greater time and internet access.
Some of that bollox up there is why I think unions should be abolished. They were necessary for their time but now just hark back to a bygone time in the workplace.
Unions abolished? Well, that's a fairly grandiose pronouncement. It's a pity that folk feel this way - but no great surprise. Stronger worker representation is very much needed in these times. Not as much as when "worker" were viewed as little more than consumables, but needed all the same. I suppose they're a bit of a fly in the ointment for companies that wish to shaft their employees.
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Plz 2 be stopping arguing now, kkthxbi.
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I suppose they're a bit of a fly in the ointment for companies that wish to shaft their employees.
Greater worker protection today (although always room for improvement) which means less of a need but there is no doubt that if they disapeared things would regress quickly.
Well, that's a fairly grandiose pronouncement.
It was said by a manager.
My view is that the Union represent/advocates for the workers to management and we all try and get along. Everyone wants to enjoy work and every employer wants a happy workforce. Hostility, from either side, helps no one and I view the role more as a communication one than a battle tbh.
Often I am more effective at pointing out to staff that they are being unreasonable than "management " are as they know I am on their side.
Perhaps I have been lucky in that I have always had fair employers who have always tried their best.
I still think it makes little sense to assume the OP's post is untrue and the manager is still acting unlawfully.
It seems from the multitude of "I'm being shafted" threads on here and from the experiences of two close friends (of course, they could have been bullshitting) who really were shafted recently, that in non-unionised workplaces, especially, larger corporations, that it is often seen as easier to just GTFO and find a new job rather than take the employer to a tribunal because of the hassles and stresses of an individual fighting against much bigger resources. Were I in the same situation, I guess I'd probably just go sheepishly in the end too as life is too short and all that. But there is no doubt that larger corporations that advantage of this.
Unions aren't generally needed for the kind of stuff for which they were set up - which really was to see if workers could be expected to make it home alive on an evening to eat supper with their families (legislation takes care of most of that; was that pushed originally by employers I wonder?) - but I see no reason why they shouldn't fight to get employees a larger chunk of the pie. After all, if none of the main parties are willing to narrow the gap between rich and poor, then I'd happily let the unions have a go. Look at tube-drivers - out-earning most of STW by a long shot. 🙂
Employers always hold the upperhand as it is after all their ball [ bit like mods] so unions certainly help as it gives a formal and "neutral" service to speak up on your behalf rather thn ahave an individual have to do it alone and look like they are the problem as no one else complains.
On this thread there was plenty of talk about managing folk out of work rather than talk about training, assistance and support for said employee which I would assume is managing tbh- Yes i have sacked folk for ability reasons but all failed the probation rather than ones who had been there for years. Not one mention of the peter principle though.
As for rights I would point out that none of them were given by employers, not health and safety, equal pay, minimum wage, time directives, holiday pay, sick pay ......the dark satanic mines [ or sweat shops of the far east currently]is how an employer would treat you if they still could.
Unions will never have had their day though the role they need to perform in the workplace will change
I think it best to assume that the OP has given a mostly factual account. if they have lied, or their personal bias has blinded to certain aspects, then the efficacy of any given advice will be diluted or neutralised. Thus they are the only one to suffer.
but to argue with advice (given on the basis of the op being true) based on the possibility of it not being true serves less than no purpose.
but to argue with advice (given on the basis of the op being true) based on the possibility of it not being true serves less than no purpose.
+1
I admit to having read OPs previously and not believed them. In such cases I have thought it best not to bother contributing.
Employers always hold the upperhand as it is after all their ball [ bit like mods] so unions certainly help as it gives a formal and "neutral" service to speak up on your behalf rather thn ahave an individual have to do it alone and look like they are the problem as no one else complains.
Are you mad? Employment law is so heavily weighted in favour of the employee!
Are you mad?
Mad?Mad?
I am livid 🙄
employers can get rid of any employee via a restructure if they chose and making roles redundant]
They can manage out employess - can you manage out an employer?
Employers can force through changes in the contract if they so wish
Ultimately they can even sack everyone and re hire them on worse terms - though that is infrequently done
Employers can move the factory to Spain or 150 miles away
Employers can stop trading if they want
Employees face great difficulty in withdrawing their labour
Employees get some holiday , some sick pay and you cannot discriminate due to gender etc its not much really and the fact remains it is the companies ball so they will always have the most power
What exactly are these great powers that employees have over employers that makes you question my sanity?
What exactly are these great powers that employees have over employers that makes you question my sanity?
Well, can you imagine they actually have a [i]right[/i] to [i]ask[/i] for flexible working hours. And the employer has to [i]actually[/i] consider the request. Before telling them to **** off.
If every valuable employee voted with their feet when they were being put upon and proved how easy it was for a decent person to move jobs then bad management and companies treating people badly would soon become a thing of the past. Do you think I can achieve my targets without a happy and motivated work force? Nope. I, the manager, need you more than you need me. But, I've got stuff to do too, and is my time better spent managing flex time, compassionate leave and time monitoring from some one under performing, or maybe hiring that fresh new face a couple of years out of uni who wants to go places?
I was treated poorly 5 years into my career after being passed up for promotion due to a disagreement with a senior manager, I got bitter about it and hung around for a couple of years still being passed over. Till finally I got a promotion in another dept, only to find said manager had put in a bad word for me there to. So, I voted with my feet, got the job I deserved with a much better firm and a nice pay rise. Don't play the victim. For good people jobs are out there don't take any crap. After my experience I thought a union would have bee the answer, I now work in a company with a union, I have observed what they have achieved over the last 5 years and have come to the conclusion other than adding delay to everything they get involved with no decision has every gone differently to how it would have done without the union. They no longer serve a purpose in my opinion.
I agree with much of what Junkyard says, despite his verbosity and TJesque style, but the establishment of a rigid rule-bound system has its downside.
I can't discuss details, but employees can play that rigid system like binners plays a banjo, hence my scepticism.
So, I voted with my feet, got the job I deserved with a much better firm and a nice pay rise.
If unions were stronger you might even be earning more. 🙂
Junkyard ans DT 78 +loads 😆
Union was no help to my dad many years ago when they were at their peak
Union was no good when MrsT was having issues and are still faceless and useless now that she is in charge of 20 odd staff.
My union is proving just as bad, my works convened is so p.....d off he is taking advantage of the company ver scheme!
In the current manufacturing slump if we were to take any form of industrial action(being talked about)then it is likely the doors will be shut and production moved to China! Pep talks tomorrow apparently 😯
I agree with much of what Junkyard says, despite his verbosity and TJesque style, but the establishment of a rigid rule-bound system has its downside.
That wasn't quite my reading of what JY's asking for. He seems to be proposing that an employer returns the flexibility which he expects from his employee.
EDIT: You stated my view in so many fewer words than me
I am not made for twitter am I 😉
but the establishment of a rigid rule-bound system has its downside.
Of course it has the best workplaces have flexibility in both directions as sometimes we all have to work late to get things done and sometime life gets in the way of work.
Swings and roundabouts...the rules are just the last resort when the flexibility is in one direction or unfairly applied by either side.
For example we had flexible working and it meant that everyone left early on a friday so there was no cover. Management used the contract and terms to create a rota for business reasons. I was amazed how many people formally objected to being asked to work on one friday every month especially as redundancy was on the cards.
Management became quite inflexible about this and I dont blame them tbh as they needed cover and this was the only way.
despite his verbosity and TJesque style
guilty as charged not really helped my case has it 😳
guilty as charged not really helped my case has it
I disagree. I like people with passion even if I don't agree with them, and TJ was a passionate arguer, so carry on fella!
JY....MrsT has the very same issue. She told her staff to sort it themselves or she would sort it for them 👿 There is still the odd individual who has a moan only to be reminded of the options!
I can't see how the OP has grounds to moan, he got his flexible hours, he got an hour toil, and yet still winge, winge. If the car broke down and you were late by 2.5hrs and didn't want to take half a day off, then surely you have to offer and then make up the hours?
If you are that fed up with the job get another, but I expect you'll find it hard to find one that is only a 7 hour day and with flexible hours.
I'd also be surprised if in this case that even a Union would want to touch it with a barge pole, as the grounds for complaint seem minimal IMO. I don't think having a huffy boss is something they'd be bothered with.
i never see it as an us and them situation as it is in everyones best interest we all just get along.
What I dont like is when employers take the piss. It is their rules in their contract so it is not unreasonable to expect them to follow them.
Mange folk out of an organisation is just bad management, sack them or work with them to improve their performance. Often this means make work so unpleasant they would rather leave than face the shit and stress dished out to them. It is pretty much just bullying IMHO.
In this case had he left after one hour of work i doubt the manage would have been fine about it and they were not fine about them being late - despite the issue so it is not even or fair or legal.
he got an hour toil,
everyone else got two hours and his was reluctantly - why is it fair to single him out for this. The only purpose i can see is to annoy the employee tbh. they get half of what they did and half of everyone else.
If you are that fed up with the job get another, but I expect you'll find it hard to find one that is only a 7 hour day and with flexible hours.
You should familiarise yourself with the legislation as it is now a right and employers must demonstarte that it is impossible* [ not a pain] to do this
Flexible working includes, but is not limited to, part time working. It encompasses a range of options including part time working and can include job sharing, flexible hours, compressed hours, term time working and working from home, or varying start and finish times.
rational here
uniony one on rules
At present, around 800,000 people qualify for the right to request flexible working and 90 per cent of applications are currently accepted.
Under the new regulations, workers will have the right to ask employers to alter their contractual hours to fit in with their domestic life.
They may not request fewer hours, but can suggest, for example, altering them so that they fit in with school hours by starting work earlier and leaving by mid-afternoon.
In this case the company probably had to do this given they already did it for others
* ok there are spefic reasons they can give so impossible is not strictly accurate
my 2p worth
If you have 7 people working for you and 6 are positive, flexible and helpful and 1 who is negative, disruptive, always having problems, a work-to-rule person, would you manage all of them in the same way?
The 6 you could delegate to, have a collaborative coaching style with and be confident in their self management and decision-making skills.
You would manage them in a completely different way to the person who needed constant prodding to get things done, was always a 'victim of circumstance' (I'm late because my car broke down, etc)
Funny how it's never the fault of this person, always someone else.
Funny how you never get the same problems with your top performers.
A good manager uses different techniques to manage these two types of people.
It seems strange to me that people think it an alien thing to actually enjoy their job and that if they voluntarily want to work through their lunch hour, that they are somehow deranged or the employer is being unfair in some way.
Most people who work through their lunch or beyond what is expected because they want to, often derive other recompense for their efforts. Whether that is having the flexibility to leave 10mins early etc or maybe seeing the face of a happy customer because their order is completed on time or against the odds.
I like my job, I'm happy to be flexible. I like to think that I work hard and contribute to the success of the team and am valued by my boss. The money pays the bills, but its not why I get out of bed in the morning.
I also see those that think they are owed a living, do as little as incompetently possible, are always 'treated unfairly'. They never seem to be able to organise themselves to get to work on time, or sort their childcare, or doctors appointments, all their kit seems to go wrong more often that others.
They just will not put work higher on their list of important things they have to do to get by.
However, ask them to turn up on time for a free beer and see the response.
Yeah fine he might get flexible hours elsewhere but it's not a given. Look I have every sympathy for holding an employer to the contract you signed, and plenty will try it on. However, I wouldn't bother moaning about an hour here or there, it's just petty. Normally universities are pretty cushty places to work in the main, so I'd say this all boils down to personality clashes of which we only have one side.
Plus vote with your feet, if you don't like it move on. I just did after working briefly for a US company who were t*ssers and my new place is much better in comparison.
You would manage them in a completely different way to the person who needed constant prodding to get things done
You would if you were a skilled manager what you would not do id breach their contract and ignore the law as part of your management package to them - if you do they are not the only employee who cannot do their job
Not all employees are equal in value but your job is to get the best you can out of each of them....you will still get poor employees and i doubt treating them unfairly will be a motivational master stroke.
if they cannot do the job support them and then train them and then use procedures if they are still not up to the task
I wouldn't bother moaning about an hour here or there,
Would you if everyone else got paid and you did not for doing overtime?
Would you if everyone else got paid and you did not for doing overtime?
Well work as you mentioned is a 2 way thing, with many shades of grey, so yes in some cases, and no in others. Only the OP knows whether he is working hard, or taking the p*ss and hence, whether he should get the 2 hours or not. But from what he's written he sounds moany to me and others.
I've been an employer (140 people) an employee and am now an employer again (80 people). The rights and wrongs of it vary as every single person has varying tolerances to what they want out of a job and life.
I wrote a big spiel but deleted it.
Suffice to say you get whingers and you get people who would lick the sh1t off your shoe if you asked them. Neither are better or worse. Loyalty works both ways but you have to be clear, consistent and above all else honest.
i've just skimmed thorough the comments since my last comment last wednesday...and i will say this..
some of you seem to think that i am a disruptive and difficult to manage person to manage
you also seem to think i am some sort of whinging shyster who is not picking about one hours work
you also seem to think i'm some sort of incompetent worker who is getting his comeuppance and isnt liking it
well let me set the record straight about some of the points that have been made about me so far...
like i have said i made a request for flexible working, which i am more than entitled to just as any other employee...this was granted very reluctantly even though other colleagues who have also made the same request have not experienced the resistance that i have...how do i know? they have informed me after i casually asked them...
the issues i had in my previous role...was that i was being bullied and harassed by my previous manager...that was dealt with by moving me to another team...they couldnt sack me as they wouldnt have had a leg to stand on in a tribunal...that manager has since left the university...but it seems some of you think it was my fault that i got bullied and therefore maybe i deserved it....was there an issue with my work...no...the quality of my work was not an issue in that incident nor is it in this one...
regarding being flexible...i think i have been more than flexible by working late, starting early, working through my lunches etc in the past...all i did was that i asked to claim back the 2 hours i did as TOIL in the same manner that the rest of my colleagues were...with regards to the extra hour i mentioned as a result of the car breakdown...in the past i have booked half a day off and come in earlier to work and have been told by my line manager that i should take that time off as TOIL later...but seeing as my line manager is off sick at the moment this seems to be an issue...to be honest i'm not even bothered about that hour...
how have i been flexible in the past?...every year i participate in the month of Ramadan that is a prerequisite for every muslim...this means i do not eat or drink during daylight hours...therefore i do not disappear off for a fag break and i do not take my lunch hour....i would rather work through my lunch break and i have never considered claiming this time back...i am fully aware that flexibility works both ways and have always been willing to be as flexible as i can towards my employer...Ramadan starts tonight so again it will be a month of fasting and working through my lunch hour...but i am not bothered by this...
like i said the head of my team who i am having this issue with does not seem to really like me and the only reason i can think of is that i am the only one on her team she did not have a say in the recruitment of...
across the whole division i AM the only BME worker so is it a race issue?...no i do not think it is and i have never thought it has been...there obviously seems to be a clash of personalities here...
is she bullying me? most probably, given that she is aware of what happened previously she seems to have found me to be an easy target but she is being very clever about how she attacks me...whereas the last one wasnt and went at me whenever she felt like it...
some of you think i should quit this job and get a job in the real world...i.e. the private sector...well let me tell you this...i have had jobs in the private sector, the public sector and the third sector...and have never been treated unfairly like i am being right now...yes i should leave if i'm not happy...that is my intention...obviously the timing isn't great but it never is
others get treated better than me....the standard of my work is very high, always has been and always has been...how do i know this? if it wasnt then the issue would have been raised in my one to ones with my line manager or in my annual PDR's....everyone else seems to value my work but her...but like i said its not my work she has an issue with but me...
i'd like to say thanks to those people who have tried to defend my point of view and have tried to offer constructive advice/support...those who have chosen to have a pop at me...well what can i say? you're entitled to your opinion...but for those who have seen this as an opportunity to try to troll me...all i'll say is this...next time you're out on a ride, i hope your dropper shoots the saddle into your nuts...really hard!!
you may not like this response but having spent the last 4 days watching my father in law slowly deteriorate to point where the doctors cannot do any more for him...my mind is in a pretty dark place