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You're probably in the right but is it worth the hassle? If he gets the hump then he could be a real vengeful twunt when leaving the property.
^ exactly
You engage a surveyor, you get the survey report. You don't have to share that with anyone.
From what I can understand:
Mortgage company refuse unless structural survey done and reports OK
You arrange and ask vendor to fund half (he doesn't have to, but did agree)
Survey finds issues?
Vendor fixes?
Vendor arranges another survey to confirm fixed and asks you to pay half?
Mortgage company may be happy, but if roof starts collapsing in 8 months time, I don't see who you could have any recourse against
I wouldn't have a chance of claiming against anyone irrespective of whos paid for what, all the engineer has stated is that as far as he can see the repairs have been carried out in a competent manner and are adequate to reinstate the structural integrity of the trusses.
I wouldn't have a chance of claiming against anyone irrespective of whos paid for what, all the engineer has stated is that as far as he can see the repairs have been carried out in a competent manner and are adequate to reinstate the structural integrity of the trusses.
Of course you would (if you had employed the surveyor who did the final report)
That's why surveyors pay for professional indemnity insurance.
Because if they make a mistake and you end up having to fix something they didn't spot, or your house falls down, you can claim against them for the costs involved.
But as it stands, you have not employed a surveyor to pass the work, and have no recourse if things aren't as they appear.
I'm not sure you understand the various processes involved in buying and selling houses quite as you well as you think you do 😉
Basically people become greedy idiots when buying/selling houses. Irrationally so.
When I sold my previous house the rear elevation needed re-rendering and we had hoped to have finished it before putting it on the market, but had only got as far as the rendering and not the painting. The buyer agreed to buy on the basis that we would have it painted before exchange, which we did. Their surveyor came round to check this and the next day (the day before exchange which was a long chain and couldn't really be moved at this point without the whole thing collapsing) the buyers got in touch via the estate agent that they didn't like the colour and wanted to reduce the purchase price of the house by £700 so they could get the rear repainted in a colour of their choice. I had email evidence where i'd told them the colour it was being painted (country cream iirc) asking them to advise if this wasn't ok...
Anyway, much tooing a froing later I basically agree to give them £500 on the basis of not wanting to hold things up (after the estate agent accidentally forwarded me an email from the buyer saying [i]I[/i] was holding them to ransom...). They want to ok this with their mortgage lender, who advise any change in purchase price would require a new mortgage offer which would take 3 days... In the end I agree to give them cash with the keys (naughty naughty) and we exchange contracts. On the monday morning the estate agent rings to say that the buyers have decided they can't accept the £500 cash as they themselves are solicitors and it would be dishonest. To say I was angry would put it lightly. Sadly our cat did a massive poo in the house five minutes before we left and I didn't have time to clean it up...
£500 was less than 0.2% of the purchase price (that's the irrational bit).
I'm not sure you understand the various processes involved in buying and selling houses quite as you well as you think you do
I never said I did, and obviously I don't understand it anywhere near as well as you do.
So what would you recommend? Write the original £250 off and pay him for the second survey? Or would that be a waste of time as I didn't employ him?
If the roof collapsed in three months time who would make the claim? The bank, me or the vendor?
Who's liable for it? Me, the builder, the bank, the second engineer, the vendor or no one? It would be nice to know now so I can put it right before it's too late.
Thanks.
Let him keep the £250 but read all his post that turns up after the move instead of RTSing it all. The last laugh is yours, I think you'll agree.
If the roof collapsed in three months time who would make the claim? The bank, me or the vendor?
You; it's your house
Who's liable for it? Me, the builder, the bank, the second engineer, the vendor or no one?
You; it's your house.
If you had paid for the second survey, you should have some recourse. Oops.
Basically people become greedy idiots when buying/selling houses. Irrationally so.
This is the thing - it seems like we've developed a culture where it's considered ok to behave like an arsehole when it comes to buying and selling houses. 😕
You; it's your house.If you had paid for the second survey, you should have some recourse. Oops.
+1, sorry
Once the house is yours, you are liable for any repairs that need doing to it (even if caused by work done before you moved in)
You can "insure" against this happening, by employing a surveyor to do a full structural survey of the house prior to buying it.
Once that survey is done, and any defects are pointed out, you can negotiate with the seller based on the content of the survey.
If the seller rectifies the faults found, you pay the surveyor to revisit. They inspect the work done, and report again.
At a later date if problems occur that should have been spotted by the Surveyor, then you have the right to make a negligence claim against them for the cost of rectification.
In your specific situation, I don't think the seller had any reason to pay for your survey, or the second one. (So I would write off the £250)
I would also pay for the original surveyor (who works for you) to go back and inspect the work carried out.
That way, you have recourse if there are further problems down the line.
This might be a house up North..In which case the £250 could be a kitchen extension, new conservatory, and still leave enough change for a fish supper and a trip to the flicks with the missus....
DrP
Who's liable for it? Me, the builder, the bank, the second engineer, the vendor or no one? It would be nice to know now so I can put it right before it's too late.
This isn't too late to rectify.
First, forget the £250. It's not sufficiently relevant to the real concern here: will the roof fall down.
Second, you need to decide whether the repaired roof, which a surveyor has OK'd to the satisfaction of your mortgage company, is really of sufficient concern to you.
If no, then buy the house and get stuck into the decorating.
If yes, the you need to have an ability to recover your costs of fixing the roof.
[b]Insurance[/b]
You could rely on your house insurance - your only loss will be the excess and any increased premiums. Or you could take out separate insurance against this (either you pay the premium or you convince your seller to pay).
Or you could try to recover from the builder and/or the surveyor:
[b]
Contractual[/b]
To be able to recover from the builder/surveyor, you need to have a contractual relationship with them. Since you don't have that today, you'll need to get your seller and each of the builder and surveyor to allow you to step into the seller's shoes under each of those contracts. Your solicitor can create contractual documents for you (which will cost more money). Or you could get your seller to indemnify you under your purchase contract, and then he recovers from his builder and/or surveyor once you've sued him.
It's all about risk. For peace of mind, you could just commission your own survey, paid for by you. And the get on with buying the house and measuring up for carpets and curtains.
What nealglover said.
I had a similar thing recently when selling the flat. The buyer's bank couldn't value the house as the surveyor inspecting the house 'suspected' there was asbestos in the garage. To my mind any additional work to determine whether it was indeed asbestos should be done at buyers expense (it is after all his bank which requires it to secure their investment). I also made it clear that should they find asbestos it would be for my account to remove (given that is a reasonable requirement when selling a property).
*Spoiler* It was asbestos. The buyer paid for the original survey, I paid the £600 to remove it, the bank didn't charge for a follow up survey (or if they did I didn't hear about it).
I would also pay for the original surveyor (who works for you) to go back and inspect the work carried out.That way, you have recourse if there are further problems down the line.
This is probably the most sensible approach.
Presumably there is a condition against the mortgage that appropriate buildings insurance is in place as well, so I'd be wanting to make sure that I have everything formally covered in regards to the conversion. If insurance companies can find anything to wriggle out of a claim, they will.
Having said that, it hasn't fallen down yet, so your call at the end of the day
This might be a house up North..In which case the £250 could be a kitchen extension, new conservatory, and still leave enough change for a fish supper and a trip to the flicks with the missus....DrP
Ohh, get you.
😉
DrP
Every day is a school day!
I've contacted the original engineer to ask if he will carry out another survey so he should hopefully come back to me today.
Full buildings and contents insurance goes without saying but it is a condition of the mortgage that buildings insurance is in place.
Please could someone explain as to why the second structural engineer could not be held accountable on the basis I didn't pay him? I appreciate his contract is with the vendor as the vendor paid but surely as he's put his professional name to it his survey should stand irrespective of who has paid?
Thanks.
That £250 would clothe and feed all five of us for years to come!
Sorry, just read ourmaninthenorths reply, makes sense now cheers.
Please could someone explain as to why the second structural engineer could not be held accountable on the basis I didn't pay him? I appreciate his contract is with the vendor as the vendor paid but surely as he's put his professional name to it his survey should stand irrespective of who has paid?
Because his contract was on the basis of offering advice to someone other than yourself. Any losses or liabilities you suffer aren't really his concern.
^ this.
And that is also why, if your purchase fell through, you aren't "funding the whole process for someone else"
Because to gain any sort of real protection from one, the buyer needs to do their own survey, even if someone else has done one previously.
You can choose to risk it and trust someone else's survey, if you really want to. But it is exactly that, a risk.
No comeback to anyone other than yourself if things go wrong later.
Please could someone explain as to why the second structural engineer could not be held accountable on the basis I didn't pay him? I appreciate his contract is with the vendor as the vendor paid but surely as he's put his professional name to it his survey should stand irrespective of who has paid?
No. His duty of care is under a contract, which is to his client. The seller is his client.
Under contract law you need to be "privy" to a contract to have some/any rights under it. "Privy" in this case almost certainly means "party to the contract and who paid the money".
So, the person who paid the money and has the contract is the seller. You don't have a legal interest in the contract - i.e. you're not privy to it - so therefore you don't have any rights under it.
If you then consider the overriding legal principle of caveat emptor (buyer beware), what this means is that you buy something as seen. So if something doesn't work or isn't fit for purpose (i.e. the roof) you have no comeback against the seller. It's not like buying a new TV where you have consumer rights - assume you basically have nothing.
To de-risk this situation, you need to minimise the risk of paying more than the house is worth. So you instruct professionals to inspect the house and tell you if there are any hidden problems (wonky roof, asbestos, drains issues, is it built over coal mines, etc.).
So you can make sure you get the benefit of that professional advice, you need to pay for it. If the advice proves to be wrong, you have to have an ability to recover your losses (e.g. cost of fixing a wonky roof) - lawyers, surveyors etc. carry insurance to protect themselves against the risk of being sued.
One more thing: while you're focussing on the roof issue is there anything else bothering you?
If you're having a full structural survey done, then read the report very carefully and if you don;t understand anything or aren't happy, then call up the surveyor and get them to explain themselves.
I hope all the above makes sense - I spend my days negotiating deals and contracts and used to be a lawyer, so this stuff is second nature to me and it's easy to forget that not everyone has the same knowledge and experience.
Main message: if you're parting with money for something, do you think you've got a good deal? I don't mean a bargain (though you may have), but something that represents fair value for the thing you're buying. If you don't, then make sure you address those concerns before spending lots of your own and the bank's money on something.
Classy. How did you do this 'research'?
We talked to the neighbors mostly. Things like "it was sad to see him pass away last year, its been empty for ages" tend to give a lot away.
Also the solicitor told us it was 3 sisters selling and the house was in none of there names.
We spent every night walking around the street as well to check for annoyances, amazing what you find out.
If you buy a car and it turns up with a wheel missing, you dont go, "oh its not worth the hassle" and buy one yourself.
If my contract says lights to be fitted in all rooms, i expect there to be just that.
In the grand scheme of things it really isn't worth getting your knickers in a twist over. When we sold our last house the buyer contacted us a couple of days beforehand wanting a reduction of a couple of hundred pounds because the oven door didn't close properly. Seriously.
I just said yes, whatever. I wanted to be a bigger man than the one who would let a sale fall through for really petty and small reasons.
ourmaninthenorth - Member
One more thing: while you're focussing on the roof issue is there anything else bothering you?
If you're having a full structural survey done, then read the report very carefully and if you don;t understand anything or aren't happy, then call up the surveyor and get them to explain themselves.
I hope all the above makes sense - I spend my days negotiating deals and contracts and used to be a lawyer, so this stuff is second nature to me and it's easy to forget that not everyone has the same knowledge and experience.
Main message: if you're parting with money for something, do you think you've got a good deal? I don't mean a bargain (though you may have), but something that represents fair value for the thing you're buying. If you don't, then make sure you address those concerns before spending lots of your own and the bank's money on something.
Thanks omint, appreciate that. To be honest the structural surveys both focused on the roof space as there is no other structural issue within the property or its boundary.
Apart from the roof issue everything else is fine. The roof was altered 14 years ago and has no (visual) deflection at all which has been noted on all three reports (the home buyers and the subsequent structural surveys). We're happy with the repairs carried out and I'm fairly certain there won't be any future problem.
I do have before and after pictures if anyone would like to see them (by email) out of pure interest (on a professional basis, not to poke fun)!?
I do have before and after pictures if anyone would like to see them (by email) out of pure interest (on a professional basis, not to poke fun)!?
£500 by Paypal gift OK?
Yes please!
Email in profile. Ta.
I'll pay half 😉
But will you?!
Spoke to the original structural engineer who I instructed/paid asking if he would survey the property again, he's had a look at the second engineers survey and has said it is a good report from a decent company and I should ask the second engineer if he'd reissue his survey in my name first before we go any further.
Would this cover me if the second engineer agreed to this?