[Closed] Almost everything that can be said about cars in one easy GIF

A) They are cyclists and it's a fairly logical conclusion for "us".
B) Driving in slow moving traffic is a frustrating hassle.
C) It's faster.
D) Trying to lose weight or similar.
E) Something else.

A devel­oped coun­try is not a place where the poor have cars. It’s where the rich use pub­lic trans­port
– para­phrased from Enrique Penalosa, for­mer Mayor of Bogotá, Colombia

I'm sure you're right, there's some fundamental difference in the climate, and the people and the terrain and the mindset and the layout of the facilities in Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Bremen, Stockholm, Groningen, and all the other places where public transport, walking and cycling are widespread.

Sigh.

Well for one thing it might help if people didn't feel happy to find any excuse not to ride a bike. It is partly about an attitude of mind.

Might also help if the folk advocating it the loudest weren't quit so sanctimonious about it. Assuming that was a dig at myself.

I'm sure you're right, there's some fundamental difference in the climate, and the people and the terrain and the mindset and the layout of the facilities in Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Bremen, Stockholm, Groningen, and all the other places where public transport, walking and cycling are widespread.

Sigh.

Yup keep it up, you're really out there winning hearts and minds aren't you?

How about the differences between Glasgow and Edinburgh? Generally wet vs generally cold, which do you think makes for the better experience?

How about instead of snide remarks and smart arsed comments you actually answer my questions?

If you live in the suburbs you have to accept you will never have great mass transit

Sorry but that's nonsense (but in a constructive way). Rail services spreading out of Glasgow, tram in Manchester, tube and rail in London. It's all there ready to be used plus god knows how many other disused lines. It's possible, you just need to make it convenient enough and cheap enough that folk actually WANT to use it.

How about instead of snide remarks and smart arsed comments you actually answer my questions?

Life's too short.

My boy (6) told me off the other day, for driving to the shops.
"We should ride our bikes" he said.
"Way more fun than sitting in the car"

He's right of course.

(to be honest, we almost always ride our bikes to the shops)

The solution to our problems, is with our children.

Umm, cycling is neither mass transit nor the most convenient form of transport.

How about the differences between Glasgow and Edinburgh? Generally wet vs generally cold, which do you think makes for the better experience?

By over simplified I mean people have all these great end plans but rarely have any idea how to get there. It's not as simple as just saying throw down a cycle motorway and hope people use it.

When I said it was simple, I was talking about public transport rather than cycling. The proportion of able bodied adults who can be persuaded to commit to making a physical effort is probably no more than a third at best, I'd guess.

In the long term maybe we can persuade people that cycling doesn't constitude a physical effort, but whilst there are hills in our cities this won't be easy.

Bike sheds round here are full all year round, so are the buses/trams. And it makes both Edinburgh and Glasgow look relatively toasty warm and dry for a good chunk of the year (how does 3-5 months of snow and ice sound?) it's just a matter of mindset. And warm clothes.

FWIW I'd take cold any day of the week. I can stick wind, I can stick rain but both together is bloody miserable. We rarely get snow these days so I'd take that as well, at least it doesn't soak you through (unless blizzard conditions). It's a different kind of cold if you know what I mean?

The Glasgow vs Edinburgh thing was what I was alluding to there, Edinburgh might be cold but it's also relatively dry when compared to Glasgow.

When I said it was simple, I was talking about public transport rather than cycling.

So was I, I just used the cycle paths as an example. It all has to be integrated or it will never work and it has to be done so in a way that it's seen as the carrot rather than the stick. Yes, it's simple on paper but in the real world you need to get a complete shift in attitudes and behaviours before it really works. Not to mention a complete change in the way public transport is run and funded. Those are the complexities that need to be discussed as well as how we achieve the change (legislation, taxation etc.).

As someone said though it's only something that came about a couple of generations ago, it's probably folk of my parents generation who were the ones it started with (boomers).

Oh and it was a way back but re: the fatbike commuter - I can better that with the guy who used to commute from Paisley into Glasgow on a Brooklyn Race Link!

Serious question for the group - do people cycle, specifically commuting in this case because

A) They are cyclists and it's a fairly logical conclusion for "us".
B) Driving in slow moving traffic is a frustrating hassle.
C) It's faster.
D) Trying to lose weight or similar.
E) Something else.

Living and working within walking distance of busy train stations helps, not sure what will happen when we move, but I'm sure riding to the station will be an option....or of course a new job 😕

In the long term maybe we can persuade people that cycling doesn't constitude a physical effort, but whilst there are hills in our cities this won't be easy.

If you asked parents why they don't let their kids ride to school how many of them would respond "because it's a bit hilly and little Jonny might get a sweat on"? How many would respond "it's too dangerous"?

I know this was sarcastic, but it's got one bit right:

I'm sure you're right, there's [b]some fundamental difference in the[/b] [s]climate, and the people and the terrain and the mindset and the[/s] [b]layout of the facilities in Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Bremen, Stockholm, Groningen, and all the other places where public transport, walking and cycling are widespread.[/b]

It's the infrastructure. Do you think people would drive their cars so much if there were no roads wide enough for two lanes of traffic? Or if all roads went from one empty field to another? Build high quality, safe, direct infrastructure for cycling and walking that has priority over/equal to the infrastructure for motor vehicles and people will walk and cycle more.

Actually, that should be "[i]more people[/i] will walk and cycle", it's the non-cyclists that we need to get on their bikes, just normal people using a bike because it's easy, not 'cyclists' (and I'm one of them) using a bike because it's extra training or they like the adrenaline rush of mixing it with traffic.

Telling drivers to play nice doesn't work. Telling people to ride their bikes doesn't work. Telling people who are already riding bikes to wear hi viz and wear helmets and 'share the road' doesn't work. We've been doing all these for decades and cycling's modal share is at a mighty 1.96% ( https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/nts03-modal-comparisons).

You can't measure the need for a railway line by counting the number of trains ploughing, without a track, across the countryside. You can't measure demand for a bridge by counting people swimming across the river, or hang-gliding across a ravine. You can't measure demand for cycle infrastructure by looking at the (low) number of people riding on the (perceived as) hostile, dangerous roads.

I bet most of the people who go on holiday to Center Parks wouldn't call themselves 'cyclists'. But when they get there and the cars are parked for the week and there are safe routes and riding a bike is easy and convenient oddly enough, they ride bikes. Then they put them back on the bike carrier, drive back home and don't touch them until they go back next year. The British aren't genetically hardwired to not cycle, we've just built an environment that discourages it.

No public transport through the village where i live....that said the nearest town is only 2 mins in the car up the road (so perfectly cyclable) and it has an Ambulance Station, if only their HR dept wesnt so crap and would process my transfer faster!....soooo, currently travelling 4 hours each to my old NHS trust in the South East!....obviously i dont do that everyday, i travel down and do a run of shifts and then go home for about a week.

Travis - Member

The solution to our problems, is with our children.

We could get them to pull rickshaws?
You're a genius.

Interesting thread

I agree on the point of build the infrastructure and they will use it. But there is much more to it than that as pleaderwilliams said on page 3

When I think about the type of people I work with or have worked with over the years I can't help thinking it would make very little difference to things. Lots of people seem to change job and location but do not move house

The people in cars have generally been middle ranking upwards and fall into the categories

- Those who choose to live in a location for lifestyle reasons and commute by car
- Those working for a national business and need to travel around the country
-Those who moved jobs but not house

The people on public transport or walking

- Those travelling to a central location to undertake a clerical or low skilled task
-Those who live near work (Mainly above)
-Those who live near a convenient transport link (mainly London)

The people cycling

- Cyclists
- A few of the people who are on low paid jobs on BSOs

Over the last 18 years with the same company I have fallen into almost all of those categories at some point.

I can't help thinking that better cycling infrastructure would cannibalise public transport and not really address the issues of cars on the road, I think to do that you need to convince the middle aged middle class middle management to continue to live in the city.

I've never worked at a location where great cycling infrastructure up to the front gate would have helped that much I don’t think.

In countries where cycling is widely used as transport, it is kids, older people, and women who tend to cycle. Middle-aged self-important blokes still drive. Basically, the opposite of this country.

Hence, even on a cycling forum (full of middle-aged self-important blokes), many people don't get it.

I think to do that you need to convince the middle aged middle class middle management to continue to live in the city.

Good luck.

I'm only 38 but couldnt wait to leave the South East, it was OK when i was single and going out lots with my single mates and the odd couple....but once everyone hit 30 and started buying houses, partnering up, having sprogs etc the aim has been to get the hell out of dodge....cities are crap for families, certainly down South anyway, they're expensive, crowded, dirty etc....no privacy or open space to call your own....you'd have to pay me to live in London.

For just 50k more than the 2-up/2-down terrace we had in the South East we've moved to a village location and live in an 1850's era 3-bed cottage in 4 acres of land with stables, double garage, off road parking etc....as a bonus we're also 20mins from the coast and have a few of the Welsh trail centres nearby....but yeah, go on then, tempt me back to the City?!

Car use is convenient....it just keeps coming back to that word i'm afraid, you can label it lazy if you want (i couldnt care less) but having a car and being able to live hours away from where i work has meant we've been able to move away from the hussle and bussle of the outer London area and have a quality of life that would be unaffordable to us if we stayed in the South....we priced up similar properties in the South East the other evening to see how much our place would cost if you lifted it up and plonked it down in the outskirts of London, Surrey etc....it would treble or even quadruple in price and working in the NHS on a very average salary that just isnt going to happen....trying to guilt trip people like me into giving up the car and living close to work would effectively limit the chance i'd ever have of living in the countryside or owning a nice house, you create even more haves and have-nots than there are already....same as when some plank suggests taxing the arse out of fuel to penalise people for driving, all it does is hit the poorest first as running a car is a big expenditure for them....the wealthy carry on regardless.

The only way i can see things working is if people who live in cities by choice have cycling infrastructure put in place for them and maybe some kind of tax break to give up the car....as i said in a previous post; congestion, traffic, whatever you want to call it stops being an issue once you're out of cities and decent sized towns so the rest of the country looks on bewildered at the funny attitudes of the city-types who seem to think everywhere in the UK has everything nearby and within cycling distance....its no wonder people like myself get defensive, if you choose to live in a city and want to vote for pro cycling Mayors, councillors, MPs etc to change things then bully for you, just dont expect the rest of the country to fall in line with your view of how we should all live, work, travel etc.

and maybe some kind of tax break to give up the car

I know there's a couple of companies about that pay for mileage but I'm sure they pale into insignificance compared to those paying for driving mileage.

Some reading for squirrel:
http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2011/02/all-those-myths-and-excuses-in-one-post.html

and another one from there about shared space which I mentioned earlier:
http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/search/label/shared%20space

aracer:
http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2011/02/all-those-myths-and-excuses-in-one-post.html

It's quite reasonable to assume that people will cycle less in truly mountainous places, but if your area is less hilly than Switzerland and you have less cycling than Switzerland, think about the reason for this. It's not the hills.

deviant, people living in the countryside generally isn't the problem, assuming you also work in the countryside somewhere. But if you live outside of the city and commute into it, then you're part of the problem, you're also wasting your time and money commuting, that could be spent more locally if you lived nearby and walked or cycled to work. Nobody is trying to convince everyone to move back, but we need to build the infrastructure to promote this type of lifestyle as the alternative (more people living in the countryside/suburbs and driving) is not sustainable.

"I cycle so you could cycle too". People often think that because the conditions are good enough for them to cycle that everyone else would too, perhaps after a bit of training. Actually, this is not remotely true, and training has been shown to have little effect on its own. The reason is simple: training does not change conditions on the streets, and therefore does not improve subjective safety to the point that people want to cycle.

Me too!

aracer I don't think you have either read or understood a word I have said so far if that's supposed to be some sort of admonishment.

[url= http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article4584384.ece ]Minister ‘hangs head in shame’ over British cycling provision[/url]

..... you're part of the problem...... wasting your time and money commuting......if you lived nearby and walked or cycled to work......not sustainable.

This kind of nagging really isn't helpful. People like deviant (presumably someone who likes riding a bike, so on 'the right side' to start with) are evidently, from his post above, put off. So the people who haven't sat astride an enduro gnarpoonsteed in decades aren't going to think "oo, sounds great, I'll support that bike lane petition".

It's not about telling individuals "tsk tsk, you're very selfish, stop driving your car". It's about local and national government doing something that actually makes a huge amount of economic sense when the cost:benefit ratios are looked at and providing decent infrastructure. Yes, it might take individuals to put pressure on MPs and councillors, but those individuals aren't going to be won over by telling them they're selfish, lazy polluters.

It's not about [b]making[/b] people ride bikes/walk/use public transport. It's about letting some people use bikes for some of their journeys, some of the time. The way to do that is to make it feel/look/be safe and direct and convenient. Nagging is not going to do anything, apart from p**s people off.

deviant, people living in the countryside generally isn't the problem, assuming you also work in the countryside somewhere. But if you live outside of the city and commute into it, then you're part of the problem, you're also wasting your time and money commuting, that could be spent more locally if you lived nearby and walked or cycled to work. Nobody is trying to convince everyone to move back, but we need to build the infrastructure to promote this type of lifestyle as the alternative (more people living in the countryside/suburbs and driving) is not sustainable.

I work in the "country", my wife works in the city. Should one of us give up our job or are we better off just getting a divorce? Or, should I continue driving as necessary and let her take the commuter train full of people?

Daft escalation, yes, but I'm proving a point

TBH if everyone moved to the city it'd be even less pleasant than it already is.

And a lot of countries already have a problem with depopulation of the countryside.

bails - Member
..... you're part of the problem...... wasting your time and money commuting......if you lived nearby and walked or cycled to work......not sustainable.

way to go pulling out all the context 🙄

I work in the "country", my wife works in the city.

Fine, i'm not picking on you, everyone has to do what they have to do, do you want me to be more specific, if you're single, or if you both live in the country and work in the city, etc, etc, blah, blah

This is all getting pretty silly.

Its not an either or argument.

No one is suggesting banning cars.

Have 2 kids to drop off at school / nursery on you way to work 10 miles away?
Take the car.

Have heavy equipment you need for your job?
That's what vans are for.

Live in a rural area and travel fairly long distances?
Take the car.

Live less than 5 miles from work
Maybe think about cycling, even just on nicer days

1 mile trip to the shops for a pint of milk
Maybe think about walking.

Going out for a bite to eat in town at the weekend?
Could you take a bus or train?

Currently around 2% of journeys are carried out by bike. No one is seriously suggesting that we get to Dutch levels overnight but each extra journey is a step in the right direction.

I totally understand it's not practical for a lot of people but it is possible for a lot of others. We just need to find ways to encourage them to start cycling, better infrastructure would be a good place to start.

Have 2 kids to drop off at school / nursery on you way to work 10 miles away?
Take the car.

Have heavy equipment you need for you job?
That's what vans are for.

Live in a rural area and travel fairly long distances?
Take the car.

Live less than 5 miles from work
Maybe think about cycling, even just on nicer days

1 mile trip to the shops for a pint of milk
Maybe think about walking.

Going out for a bite to eat in town at the weekend?
Could you take a bus or train?

The voice of reason.

To be honest the pious and high-horse brigade boasting about how they revel in the crappy weather to cycle for an hour to work each day are as off putting to leisure cyclists like me as Clarkson is for serious petrolheads....both are extreme ends of the argument and neither one is helpful.

The post i quoted however is pretty much where i'd like to get to at some point with my car/bike use.

To be honest the pious and high-horse brigade boasting about how they revel in the crappy weather to cycle for an hour to work each day are as off putting to leisure cyclists like me as Clarkson is for serious petrolheads....both are extreme ends of the argument and neither one is helpful.

It's a big mistake to think we have to start by boiling the ocean.

Encourage cycling for the journeys where its most practical. Spend money on sensible local infrastructure rather then expensive headline projects. Maybe spend a little bit of money educating the public that cycling is a good thing and people on bikes could do with a bit more room on the road.

Obviously i reserve the right to be smug and pious when it suits me though!

But the way people go on that's not enough.

I think there are folk that just pathologically hate cars as a symptom of a larger problem rather than the problem itself. Maybe because in order to solve the problem people know their horses aren't as high as they would like them to be.

If I could get to work conveniently on public transport I would but it's too much of an arse ache to bother with especially when I have to travel 35 miles to get to work for 7:30am. So car for me. Plus public transport stinks as a general rule.

[quote=squirrelking ]I think there are folk that just pathologically hate cars as a symptom of a larger problem rather than the problem itself. Maybe because in order to solve the problem people know their horses aren't as high as they would like them to be.

Are you going to name them?

I own a car.

I hate the cult of the car - where despite planning supposedly having to encourage the use of other modes of transport, in reality anything which delays cars can't be done. It's interesting to see some housing developments go through the planning process here - apparently it is enough that there is a nearby bus stop, even if the reality is that hardly anybody buying those houses will use the bus (because it's not fit for standard), everybody will use their cars. Distinctly sub-standard cycling facilities tick that box and we have environmentally sustainable new housing 🙄

@sbob - I meant education.
Nothing is going to change dramatically in the very near future, but as parents, educators etc., we have a duty to influence, show reasoning to the problems that we have, and work towards solutions.

I've just gone a year without a car...
Hired when I needed a weekend away, work is either from home or a plane ride away so no real need. It's different when you don't have the option of a carcar, got one again and now I nip to the shops in it rather than ordering online.

When I've been commuting the things that kept me off the bike were simple. No storage or showers, keeping sweaty kit under my desk doesn't appeal and not showering after 20 miles is not nice.
In other places either no linked up routes or madness like no joined up public transport.
Now my commute will be 10 kins downhill so bike time!