[Closed] All publicity is good publicity...

Some guy killed a lion he shouldn't have. End of story really imo. I can't see there being a similar outrage if someone in Scotland killed the wrong deer.

Probably because there is no shortage of deer, whereas Lions are in danger of becoming extinct.

No harm if you can dress the kill and eat it after, not sure there is a lot of lion eaten. That is purely down to Vanity.

Sitting in a tree having lured the prey in with artificial scent doesn't seem very skilful that is the point I was trying to make.

Its the whole "I am a hunter" bit which they have reduced to the skill of shooting fish in a barrel

What about with a bow and arrow?

Edit:

Sitting in a tree having lured the prey in with artificial scent doesn't seem very skilful that is the point I was trying to make

I lived in Zimbabwe and understand the need for hunting in terms of conservation both for revenue which funds conservation work and population management given that space is restricted. Each year a set number of licences for viable species will be issued. I have no problem with this in fact with the right connections I probably would have considered a career guiding these tourists but didn't have any connection to hunting community.

But luring a dominant male head of a pride out of the park to land you can make the kill on is wrong, should be looking to hunt an animal past it's prime. Also 40 hours for a kill is ridiculous if he wants to use a bow he should be prepared to make the kill the same day. Apart from the animals suffering a wounded lion like that is a danger to people living in around the park. Most deaths among professional hunting guides happen when tracking a dispatching animals wounded by clients.

Apparently not. Since your typical couple on honeymoon safari require/desire a certain amount of luxury or convenience (by safari standards) whereas trophy hunters are more willing to go well out of their way.

Africa is big, logistics are hard. Transporting and housing a hunter with £35000 to spend on one animal in a remote area is easy. 100 tourists with a Nikon isn't.

But 1 'hunter' paying a few fly-by-night 'guides' the equivalent of $10k each isn't really sustaining the economy. '100 tourists with a Nikon' paying $5k each to be there are paying $500k between them, and require 20 guides, 10 landrovers, 40 chefs/maids/porters, etc etc is. And the best bit is, you can bring in 100 more next week.

Even if he'd been standing on one foot, blindfolded while performing the macarena it wouldn't make it OK though.

🙄

Africa is big, logistics are hard. Transporting and housing a hunter with £35000 to spend on one animal in a remote area is easy. 100 tourists with a Nikon isn't.

I don't like hunting at all, but it does bring the money in for wildlife management.

Edit: And hunting is really popular in the US. Don't assume this will hurt said dentist's business in any way.

Except in this case, the park has said that Cecil brought in something like the equivalent to 800,000 USD a year in terms of tourism. People went there specifically to see him. Where as that Hunter brought in 50k.

Maybe said brave dentist could go out to Syria with his bow and arrow and confront creatures that might shoot back. I'm sure there is scope for crowd funding of some Lincoln Green camouflage for him and his merry mates.

Except in this case

Again, I am no hunting fan. However, my aunt's ex is a professional hunter. He qualified as a pilot so he could fly clients into his concessions, his business absolutely brought money and employment into areas that would need massive investment to support conventional tourists.

No skill in being able to shoot straight?

He didn't, he missed and hit the lion in the neck - and this was a lion that had been lured with food and was probably pretty close.

Again, I am no hunting fan. However, my aunt's ex is a professional hunter. He qualified as a pilot so he could fly clients into his concessions, his business absolutely brought money and employment into areas that would need massive investment to support conventional tourists.

So what, it's still not economically viable to kill animals that bring more in, in terms of tourism than hunting ever does.

The scientists tracking this lion have stated that a significant proportion of the protected lions are killed by hunters when they venture outside the park - that is detrimental to conservation.

1. He would say that. He's likely to be fibbing.

2. It achieves a lot more than petitions and lobbying could in terms of putting the issue on the public and political agenda.

1. You may be right, but YOU would say that.

2. Proof?

This is disagreement/discussion BTW.

So what, it's still not economically viable to kill animals that bring more in, in terms of tourism than hunting ever does.

The scientists tracking this lion have stated that a significant proportion of the protected lions are killed by hunters when they venture outside the park - that is detrimental to conservation.

2. Proof?

It's possibly the biggest news story in the world this week. The thread title could equally apply to Zimbabwe.

This is disagreement

I wouldn't expect anything else from you Al.

Jimjam...
I can't see there being a similar outrage if someone in Scotland killed the wrong deer.

Okay, so it was in Exmoor and not Scotland, but how about [url= http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/oct/25/exmoor-emperor-stag-shot-dead ]this one?[/url]

Best gun for hunting lions:

[img] [/img]

Wonder what they taste like?

Chapa, what does it achieve tho?

One news story vs campaign groups working for years? If the FB sharers/outraged were really bothered surely they'd join up/contribute?

What I was meaning is that I'm not contrary, I'm just not scared of speaking my opinion. I bet we agree on many things.

funkynick

Okay, so it was in Exmoor and not Scotland, but how about this one?

I don't remember seeing that at all. Much less all over the news (on pretty much all media). I think this would have gained less publicity if he'd gone to Africa and raped and killed a human child.

So hunting possibly brings more in than the animals do?

Great...open season on the royal family. Tally ho!

jimjam... it was certainly on the BBC news for a while, and I think the House of Commons got involved at some point as well!

Unfortunately I think you might be right, although I think that says more about the willingness of the human race to abuse and kill people than anything else as it probably happens far more often! Although if it had been a famous child, who people were actually going to see, then I think there might have been some uproar!

Chapa, what does it achieve tho?

In this case what I hope the media flooding has achieved is that every single one of this dentist's customers have heard of what he likes to do with the cash they spend with him. With the amount of coverage it has gained globally it must be all over the local news there. Hopefully a sizeable proportion will choose to take their business elsewhere (but as said above, this is the states and [s]they do love hunting[/s] you can't rely on their dubious morals).

If it also promotes some in your face style physical protest and lightweight vandalism....well, that would be unfortunate.

Campaigning to change the law in a traditional manner might be the more 'mature' way to tackle this sort of thing if you feel so inclined but social media (pitchfork) protest which makes acting this way socially uncomfortable can also effect behaviour too.

Not dissimilar in many ways to leaving a poor review for a cafe, unrelated to their ability to make coffee but more about their morals, in an attempt to reduce their custom 😉

I've often wondered what the crackling on a rhino would be like.

On the radio at lunchtime it said the Dentist had a record in the States for illegally killing a Black Bear.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jul/28/man-accused-in-african-lion-death-convicted-in-08-/

OK, not very much.

OK, not very much.

In your opinion. To be fair, it didn't work for you.

torsoinalake - Member

No skill in being able to shoot straight?

I don't believe we should be unduly upset by the death of one animal. We do kill plenty of animals - it's quite normal.

What we should be upset by is the notion that anyone can KILL FOR PLEASURE.

Earlier in this thread somebody compared hunting animals with mountain biking.

Their argument was that both are enjoyable pastimes and so why should one person who enjoys mountain biking complain about someone else who enjoys hunting animals.

Again I think what should upset us is the concept that someone can KILL FOR PLEASURE.

Making an example of this guy may not be fair or even a consistent message. But if it helps to reduce and eventually stop people from killing animals simply for fun then I'm happy that we make his life a bloody misery until this nasty business is made illegal in all parts of the world.

JAG

Again I think what should upset us is the concept that someone can KILL FOR PLEASURE.

Making an example of this guy may not be fair or even a consistent message. But if it helps to reduce and eventually stop people from killing animals simply for fun then I'm happy that we make his life a bloody misery until this nasty business is made illegal in all parts of the world.

What if the upshot of that ban is that rural economies in Africa fall on their ass, and instead of preserving animals to attract big game hunters and their money locals are forced to kill these animals for food or export leading to their extinction?.

Also, I really struggle with the idea of vilifying someone who enjoys hunting when the animals hunted have good lives and die clean deaths. I've seen animals slaughtered using modern "humane" methods and it's f***ing grim, anything but humane. And that's to say nothing of halaal or kosher slaughter.

I don't agree with what this guy did and would never do it myself but what I don't understand is why minor celebrities seem to be chiming in.

In what way is Ricky Gervais qualified to tell us who can and can't kill an animal?

jimjam - Member

What if the upshot of that ban is that rural economies in Africa fall on their ass, and instead of preserving animals to attract big game hunters and their money locals are forced to kill these animals for food or export leading to their extinction?.

if you can find evidence of good* 'game' management being more succesful at conservation than simple tourism, then we can start that debate**. until then,

...Also, I really struggle with the idea of vilifying someone who enjoys hunting when the animals hunted have good lives and die clean deaths.

the lion at the centre of all this was shot (poorly) in the neck, and took 2 days to die.

(*identifying old/weak animals, those unlikely to survive. That kind of thing, y'know, [i]exactly[/i] the opposite of what happened here)

(**and it is an important debate)

I've also seen animals killed. Both singly and in a Slaughter House and it is always grim - but that's death. It ain't pretty.

I read some where today, BBC I think, that a single Lion is worth more because of the Tourists it can attract and the cash they will pay for tours and safari's. The money the Tourists bring will dwarf a single massive payment for the right to kill the same Lion.

Either way KILLING FOR PLEASURE is the crime here not killing an animal per say.

ahwiles

the lion at the centre of all this was shot (poorly) in the neck, and took 2 days to die.

That's pretty crap in fairness, but I still won't be wishing for the hunter to suffer a painful death, not will I be bleating about it on social media. As I said, we subject our food animals to shit conditions. They are "farmed" in the most brutal, industrial sense. I am okay with that because meat is delicious.

Whilst that lion may have suffered a slow death it might not have been as bad as being crushed into a long narrow corridor being pushed slowly towards it's inevitable death listening to the sights and sounds of it's fellow lions' death throes.

if you can find evidence of good* 'game' management being more succesful at conservation than simple tourism, then we can start that debate**. until then,

As I said back there, I've spoken at length to someone who used to work on one of the largest ranches in Zimbabwe before he was nearly killed trying to defend it. I believe what he told me as he'd lived in SA/Zimbabwe all his life to that point. I think it would be hard to find a source online that was totally neutral or unambiguous and anyway, I'm not sure I feel that strongly as I feel the whole thing is blown out of proportion in every way.

whataboutery, jimjam

Nor do I believe that somebody who made his living from hunting is particularly unbiased.

I'd seen the thing about the lion having to be found and killed because it wasn't a clean shot, but hadn't previously made the connection that actually this bloke is a pretty shit hunter.

What seems even more bizarre is that there's a photo doing the rounds of him posing proudly with a sheep that he shot with his bow and arrow.

Hunting sheep with a bow and arrow!!! 😯 😯

Somebody please photoshop a pic of him holding a fish next to a barrel

The dream these numbskulls have is that they will travel to Africa and wander the endless veldt in a pith helmet with a guide who will track their prey on foot. Using their advanced hunting skilz they will get to within range of an unsuspecting animal and dispatch it successfully, therby proving something (?) to themselves or others.

The reality is that (whether he thought it was legal or not) there was a vehicle with a dead animal tied to the back dragged through the bush to attract a lion out of a national park..

It was night, he was probably in or beside the vehicle (and therefore facing no personal danger). There was a spotlight, the lion probably looked up at it thinking "thats odd" as animals do at night (its the hunting equivalent of fish in a barrel), and even then he fluffed it and missed.

They did do the decent thing by tracking and dispatching it, but thats the only decent thing they did.

For me the issue here is not about hunting overall (which I'm fine with) but the morality of hunting an endangered species. There is a photo online of the same guy with a white rhino (which you can still pay to shoot, charged by the inch of horn in the 21st century!)

Big game hunting is not even really hunting, its just willy waving target practice.

In what way is Ricky Gervais qualified to tell us who can and can't kill an animal?

He's an animal activist who happens to be a Celeb so he's using his fame to promote such things. Not hard to work out really.

The thread title is sadly very true!
[url= http://heavy.com/news/2014/07/kendall-jones-texas-hunter-cheerleader-facebook-photos-conservation/ ]Kendall Jones was last years outrage, and it appears now that she a minor celebrity going by her Facebook page![/url]
[url=

now has her own clothing line, does radio interviews and does signings etc..[/url]

For me the issue here is not about hunting overall (which I'm fine with) but the morality of hunting an endangered species.

Plus the whole legality of it, they lured their prey out of the park specifically to try and get away with it. The whole thing was a crime from start to finish. They've also probably killed off all the cubs in the pride as they've lost their protector etc.

They did do the decent thing by tracking and dispatching it, but thats the only decent thing they did.

More likely that he'd payed for the lion's head and skin and wasn't going home without it.

Set the hunny badgers on him. That'll teach him something about teef.

What if the upshot of that ban is that rural economies in Africa fall on their ass, and instead of preserving animals to attract big game hunters and their money locals are forced to kill these animals for food or export leading to their extinction?.

Supposedly a lot of the money from trophy hunting is siphoned off via corruption. Your average Zimbabwean probably wouldn't notice the difference, as if Zimbabwe's economy wasn't already on it's ass.

From National Geographic
http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2015/07/21/death-of-zimbabwes-best-loved-lion-ignites-debate-on-sport-hunting/

A source familiar with the situation, who wishes to remain unnamed, says big cats may be lured out of protected areas into hunting concessions with bait. It “indicates to me a level of desperation by the hunting operators. No big male lions remain in their hunting concession areas, despite their claims of ‘sustainable’ hunting practices,” the source added.

Bryan Orford, a professional wildlife guide who worked in Hwange and filmed Cecil many times, says the lion was the park’s “biggest tourist attraction. Not only a natural loss, but a financial loss.” Orford calculates that with tourists from just one nearby lodge collectively paying U.S. $9,800 per day, Zimbabwe would have brought in more in just five days by having Cecil’s photograph taken rather than being shot by someone paying a one-off fee of U.S. $45,000 with no hope of future revenue.

You would think Cecil was the only lion in Africa.

The lodge will still be full of tourists. One dead lion isn't going to stop them.

Except the last one obviously. Which is now several steps closer