[Closed] All frontline NHS to be double jabbed to keep a job

I’m guessing the care home staff who aren’t vaccinated now after the horror of the past 18 months in those settings are subscribers to the Cult of Ignorance that is the anti-vax movement so good riddance to them. Who wants their vulnerable relatives cared for by someone who can’t even make that small concession?

Frontline NHS staff should also know better. The time for making allowances for those who cling to boneheaded destructive beliefs is over.

I get why and I'm ardently pro-vacc but don't think it should be mandatory for anyone unless they are working directly with clinically vulnerable people. Also begs the question what about other vaccinations, should they have all of them as well. Biden has tried something similar in the States, been overturned at court of appeal.

Hmm. Whilst I think this might be a good thing in principle, staff in such positions should be protected themselves from the virus and be less of a risk to others, it's about enforcing it in a legal sense. I can't see this working because surely individuals have a right to refuse medical procedures, and the right to have their 'beliefs'* etc respected, so wouldn't there need to be a fundamental change in law to make such a thing happen? Potential legal minefield, with the probability of massive lawsuits against employers etc. I'm not aware of any current law that states someone must have a certain vaccination in order to do any job.

*I think the greater safety and well being of society must trump any individual opinions or 'beliefs', but I don't think a totalitarian approach is necessarily the right approach. Certainly not with this current government.

So boris and England plc, have decided to make it compulsory for all care home staff by Thursday to be double jabbed and all NHs staff to be double jabbed by spring, or to lose their jobs.

Do you have an issue with this ?? What’s your point ?

Most front line staff have vaccines for plenty of other things.

No vaccine no job - simple really

Other vaccinations are already mandatory for NHS staff.

I'm pro vaccine but I'm also pro choice. I question the choice of those who decide not to, but that isn't as concerning as a government who think it's okay to mandate such things. Where is the line?

I'd not want treated by someone who'd not been vaccinated - why should a patient seeking potentially acute care (and with no other options where to get that care) be put at greater potential risk?

I'm in agreement with the policy, but also want it extended to all MP's and senior NHS & Carehome Managers (to take the them/us out of the 'equation').

My Mrs doesn't want it, she is part of government/nhs study to test antibody lifetimes
She is pcr tested every 2 weeks and tested for antibodies every 4, so she has cover and is safe the vaccine is not without risks and all it does is provide antibodies, that she already has (as do I 19 months after infection)

Most front line staff have vaccines for plenty of other things.

Yes - and they are no compulsory

the vaccinations that healthcare workers are given extra are to protect the worker or empklyer I refused most of them and had to sign a waiver

The conronavirus vaccination is to protect the patients. I got mine instantly

the two really are not parallel situations

Guess nhs staff aren’t leaving quick enough!! This will really help

Other vaccinations are already mandatory for NHS staff.

Nope - they are not. I know 'cos I refused some

Other vaccinations are already mandatory for NHS staff.

Which vaccines would those be?

don’t think it should be mandatory for anyone unless they are working directly with clinically vulnerable people.

Like people in care homes, (old) or hospital (sick/low immune system) for example! 😁

but also want it extended to all MP’s and senior NHS & Carehome Managers (to take the them/us out of the ‘equation’).

That's fair. In general I think that people should have the choice to have it or not, but if you choose not too, society should also be free to choose to exclude you from situations where you are putting other at risk. Hospital and care home jobs, certainly but I'd be happy that unvaccinated people aren't let into social venues, aeroplanes, hotels etc. too.

It's an interesting one. I can understand the NHS protecting themselves and their services as much as possible, by trying to ensure that they minimise staff sickness. Plus the fallout and newsworthiness if an unvaccinated member of staff infects a patient with Covid and they die.

I'm also pro-choice, even though I think having the vaccine is a no brainer. So I guess if staff feel that strongly they can leave the NHS. I don't expect the government to think their way out of a wet paper bag. But I expect some people at the NHS have done the maths and calculated they'll lose less staff leaving due to not having a vaccine than they will via not enforcing it and illness. Plus the bad news story implications.

Expect to see more of these then:

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Saw this in the gents toilets in the Cornwall Services.

I can’t see this working because surely individuals have a right to refuse medical procedures, and the right to have their ‘beliefs’* etc respected, so wouldn’t there need to be a fundamental change in law to make such a thing happen? Potential legal minefield, with the probability of massive lawsuits against employers etc.

That's my thoughts too, persuing this policy without the legal backing behind it just opens up the gates to a massive wave of claims for wrongful dismissal. So yet another government policy that hasn't been thought through properly and ripe for another U-turn.

plus-one
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Guess nhs staff aren’t leaving quick enough!! This will really help

Yep thought of that an easy way to reduce staffing levels, and recruit new staff part time, , then sell on or privatise parts more easily.

 

I’m pro vaccine but I’m also pro choice.

You choose not to have the vaccine.

I choose not to employ plague rats.

In't choice brilliant! Fantastic!!

I have no sympathy for contrarian people who refuse vaccines, and I wouldn't want my Mum/granny treated by them, in the same way I much prefer it when doctors wash their hands.

The other issue, of course, is that of signalling. It's no good having doctors and nurses (& others) in a position of trust being anti-vaccine and advertising that to vulnerable patients.

Which vaccines would those be?

E.g. Hepatitis B. I don't know how mandatory they are if someone wanted to actually kick up a fuss ("muh rights") but since I'm not a moron I just had it.

My wife cannot work without hep b ect. But she is working in private health at the moment.
Seem common sense to me tbh.
Is swine flu vac not mandatory for NHS?

I’m pro vaccine but I’m also pro choice.

So am I. You'll note that no-one is being compelled to have the vaccine, rather, it's a condition of employment for working in certain places.

E.g. Hepatitis B. I don’t know how mandatory they are if someone wanted to actually kick up a fuss (“muh rights”)

Not compulsory. I refused it ( not working with high risk patients, not high risk myself, its value is to protect the staff member not the patient, I had previous nasty reactions to similar vaccines)

Is swine flu vac not mandatory for NHS?

Nope - not even offered to me

There are no compulsory vaccinations in the NHS

Superficial

I have no sympathy for contrarian people who refuse vaccines, and I wouldn’t want my Mum/granny treated by them, in the same way I much prefer it when doctors wash their hands.

My wife without vaccine is arguably safer to be treated by than someone who's had the vaccine.
Not everyone who has the vaccine develops antibodies, the vaccine efficiency appears to fade, no one is getting tested after vaccine to see if they are covered still, you can still catch and pass on covid even with the vaccine
Vs my wife DEFINITELY has antibodies and tested for them monthly and is PCR tested every 2 weeks and DEFINITELY isn't carrying covid
I know who I'd rather be treated by, far too much crap being spouted by people who only have limited facts in this whole situation, a one size fits all approach is not appropriate

My wife without vaccine is arguably safer to be treated by than someone who’s had the vaccine.
Not everyone who has the vaccine develops antibodies, the vaccine efficiency appears to fade, no one is getting tested after vaccine to see if they are covered still, you can still catch and pass on covid even with the vaccine
Vs my wife DEFINITELY has antibodies and tested for them monthly and is PCR tested every 2 weeks and DEFINITELY isn’t carrying covid
I know who I’d rather be treated by, far too much crap being spouted by people who only have limited facts in this whole situation, a one size fits all approach is not appropriate

I don't know if there is missing grammar in that, but it currently does not make sense.

@tjagain - My wife (nurse) seems to think surgeons have to have a hepatitis vaccination and have done for many years.

My cousin (also a nurse) is an ardent anti-vaxer and says she will quit her job if they are made mandatory (but she is a bit bat shit mental).

my wife and most of her colleagues are already fully vaccinated and jumped at the opportunity for their early vaccines (and have just had their boosters)

Convert this is about vaccines not my English language skills but cheers for that, its also pretty bloody obvious what I'm saying, ps it was in response to superficial if that makes it any less of issue for you

Eskay out of interest did any of those who got booster jabs get tested for antibodies before it or did they just get given it regardless

eskay - your wife is wrong on that I am pretty sure

Surgeons will be at much higher risk of passing hep on than a nurse working with the elderly. Cut their finger while the patient is open and bingo - blood borne disease

I had my covid vaccine as soon as I could - thats to protect the patients. I had all needed vaccinations but not the ones that were there to protect the staff - ie hep- because the risk to me were so low

The vaccine isn't COVID proofing, it just reduces the risk of hospitalisation. So staff will still be able/likely to transmit the disease, whether or not they're vaccinated. Could be another piece in "the preparing NHS for privatisation" plan from the government.

Firestarter

But is that scalable?

Generalist, id have hoped it would be cheaper to test for antibodies than it would be to push through mandatory jabs, it would also mean boosters were only given when needed

As I say me and the mrs have antibodies after 19 months so who's to say we'll ever need a jab at all, surely jabbing who needs jabbing rather than trying to force it on everyone every 6 months is more cost effective and less wasteful

@tjagain - Having had a quick look online it seems that hep vaccinations are not mandatory but some trust's H&S policies may demand it (I guess it could still be refused but not sure how that works within individual trusts).

@firestarter - They were just given the booster as a matter of course (no anti-body testing).

firestarter - I would be surprised if there are not exemptions for people participating in studies like your wife (I may be wrong, and knowing this gov - they will do it as an afterthought - but there are certain exemptions for self isolating for people like her the same as for people with double vax)

I'm surprised they've felt it necessary to do this - what's the uptake level in NHS? and in care home staff? Surely the former is well into the 90's? I know the latter may be more hesitant - but we're ~ 12 months on and very few people have had bad side effects - so I wonder how easy we've made it for them - I did hear a story that whilst we brought the vaccine to the residents we expected the staff to travel to be vaccinated, minimum (or near minimum) wage staff working long hours, often without their own transport being asked to travel to central facilities at their own expense and in their own time. Contrast with hospital staff who were being sent direct from the ward on paid time. All anecdote but it may not be as simple as not wanting it - but rather having other priorities.

My cousin (also a nurse) is an ardent anti-vaxer

I don't get this. Don't nurses have a basic understanding of medical history and the unbelievable efficacy of vaccinations across time?

I mean its undeniable. Its like working for NASA and being a flat earther

Could be another piece in “the preparing NHS for privatisation” plan from the government.

In what style would sir want his tin foil hat?

I would suspect the current covid associated absence rates are part of the metrics for the decision. As is the optics of medics without jabs in an NHS where jabs are increasingly thrust upon the public.

The reality is that there isn't a good option here other than 100% voluntary take up by those not exempt for some reason. However unions/ professional bodies seem keener to just moan about the decisions of others in the media than use their time on the airwaves for encouraging voluntary take up

@tjagain – Having had a quick look online it seems that hep vaccinations are not mandatory but some trust’s H&S policies may demand it (I guess it could still be refused but not sure how that works within individual trusts).

No H&S policy can demand it. Its a basic legal principle

If refused and in high risk areas like surgeons then the answer is testing for hep status. I cannot imagine a surgeon refusing tho and if I had worked in a high risk area I would have had it

In general making vaccination a condition of employment in care homes and the NHS (and any other private health provider dealing with vulnerable people) seems like a very sensible thing. The rights of the patients/vulnerable to minimise their risk trump the rights of an antivaxxer to work where there like in my opinion.

A very sensible point made above I hadn't thought of - clearly they will lose staff because of this (though from anecdotal info, not surprisingly, the level of education and professional skillset of the employees that are not vaccinated is skewed significantly towards the bottom range) but if they have less missing staff from the isolating/recovering that could be mitigated to some extent.

Convert this is about vaccines not my English language skills but cheers for that, its also pretty bloody obvious what I’m saying, ps it was in response to superficial if that makes it any less of issue for you

Sorry, really isn't.

and

As I say me and the mrs have antibodies after 19 months so who’s to say we’ll ever need a jab at all, surely jabbing who needs jabbing rather than trying to force it on everyone every 6 months is more cost effective and less wasteful

You've really not thought that through.

I’m surprised they’ve felt it necessary to do this – what’s the uptake level in NHS? and in care home staff?

Wife works in recruitment for a large Scottish care provider. Current the care home rule is not live there. There are homes in their firm where the percentage of fully vaccinated is only nudging just above 50%. The main 'offenders' looking statistically across their 1900 employees are people in the lowest paid roles working in the homes located in the poorest areas. All were repeatedly offered the vaccine on site in work time (ie when on shift inc night shift workers). Some firms (but not hers) in Scotland are looking at the legals of enforcing in their t&cs if the Scottish government don't follow the English.

To counter that the vacancy rates in the care sector are at a historical all time high which is why I guess they have tolerated it so far.

I cannot see this working out or being enforceable.
Yet again, the NHS becomes an even less attractive organisation to work for.

You’ve really not thought that through

Whys that then

Generalist, id have hoped it would be cheaper to test for antibodies than it would be to push through mandatory jabs, it would also mean boosters were only given when needed

As I say me and the mrs have antibodies after 19 months so who’s to say we’ll ever need a jab at all, surely jabbing who needs jabbing rather than trying to force it on everyone every 6 months is more cost effective and less wasteful

@firestarter - nobody knows yet what level of antibodies is required to confer immunity - your wife is generously being a guinea pig to find that out. Until then it could be a big mistake to say "well we can detect antibodies so don't boost". Then there is the fact that in the total cost of vaccination the dose of the vaccine is relatively cheap, the logistics probably cost as must as the liquid that goes in your arm. Now to test everyone we need to put in place a whole new lot of logistics that gets blood samples from people - sends them to a lab, and gets the results back to the right people to invite you for a booster. Add in that people are generally more squeamish about getting blood taken (and depending on the sample type required the training may be longer) that an intramuscular injection and I think its actually both cheaper and probably more effective to boost everyone. Long term - I'm sure the plan is not to just keep boosting everyone, every 6 months for life - there will be a point when either we have the data to know if you need it, and a simple enough home test for antibodies set at that cut off or we will have data that says 3 or 4 doses will last you X years, or 2 doses and natural exposure will be fine for those who don't normally get flu vaccine etc.

Whys that then

logistics 101 - or if you need walking through the thought process Poly has put most of it down.

But its a totally bobbins idea at this stage.

Yet again, the NHS becomes an even less attractive organisation to work for.

I suppose it depends on your perspective? Im not convinced they should be making it mandatory BUT if I worked for NHS and wanted (a) to minimise the excess workload on me from colleague being off sick or self isolating with an avoidable condition (b) to minimise the risk to me from my colleague (c) to minimise the risk to my patients, I might actually see it as a positive thing that this helps me.

I suspect if you are bitterly opposed to the vaccine, NHS might not be somewhere you are that happy working anyway.