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ctk - Member
What difference would have early air strikes made? Who would they have targetted?
Not flooding the area with arms for 5 years would have been the way to temper the war, but that seems like a fairly controversial idea that no one seems willing to consider..
The plan for military intervention in Syria was only just behind the level of planning for Brexshit. Remember Dave's insight?
(no, nor do I)
yunkihitchen's seems to me to be pretty **** in the head..
He has some interesting ideas that are relevant to finding a way forward but his bitter vengefulness is all kinds of messed up..
he's definitely not very well
Not well at all.
[i]Christopher Eric Hitchens (13 April 1949 – 15 December 2011)[/i]
yunki - Member
hitchen's seems to me to be pretty **** in the head..
He has some interesting ideas that are relevant to finding a way forward but his bitter vengefulness is all kinds of messed up..
he's definitely not very well
You're not wrong there...
Assad's forces which would have brought the conflict to a stalemate and Assad would have been forced to negotiate or permanently ceed the territory. Russia's involvement has meant Assad has emerged as the clear winner.
Commons emergency debate now. As Andrew Mitchell points out the Arab states in the region are irretrievably divided on Syria and as such there is unlikely to be a solution
jambalaya - Member
Assad's forces which would have brought the conflict to a stalemate and Assad would have been forced to negotiate or permanently ceed the territory. Russia's involvement has meant Assad has emerged as the clear winner.Commons emergency debate now. As Andrew Mitchell points out the Arab states in the region are irretrievably divided on Syria and as such there is unlikely to be a solution
Tbh the moment Putin made an arse of the US in regards to Syria, was the moment to say, right the game's up, support Assad and lets get this nonsense over with. The US was shown as a bit part player from that moment on and there was only ever going to be 1 "winner".
Beyond humanitarian aid, we can't do anything.
The forces at play are local, regional and global politics.
It's a mess, a long with many other places in the world right now.
I do my bit by volunteering to pack donated kids clothes for refugees.
I'd love to do a bit more in giving direct aid to people in Syria too, but I'm yet to be convinced that it would actually reach them. Again, bigger scale politics probably prevents much of it being effective.
Err, without wishing to derail the thread even further I'm doing this to raise funds for the children affected in the conflict in Aleppo.
[url= https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/Wil-Kitcher ]Just giving page for Aleppo[/url]
In the scheme of things, it isn't much but I thought it better than sitting in front of the TV thinking how awful it is, then switching over to Fast and Loud and forgetting all about it.
I've been training like a mad man for it, but I still think it's going to be an utterly miserable experience. There's some blurb on there about why I'm doing it, but regardless of whether Assad or the separatist fighters are the ones to blame (I have my own views), killing children is 'the bottom of the barrel' for me.
EDIT: Cokie - I was very much of the same opinion about financial aid and sending it overseas to help. I spoke directly to Unicef who gave me some assurances and whilst there are no certainties, I feel a lot more 'comfortable' (for want of a better word) giving money via the route I am in the hope that it'll reach those who need it most.
Everyone is always so fixated on what our government and/or military chooses to do. Neither our government or our military are capable of acting in the interests of the Syrian people.
well why cant they intervene? didnt they act in the interests of the iraqi people when they invaded iraq to overthrow saddam?
Troops on the ground will drag the conflict out and suppress the inevitable civil war, which will break out again when we leave (see Afghanistan/Iraq).
this is true but it will also prevent the killing form carrying on. through the backing of the UN those responsible should be brought to justice whilst maintaining peace and stability in the country.
Then we have to ask ourselves what we can do, either individually or collectively. Now, we can't put an end to the bloodshed, we can't stop the massacre.
yes we can...trouble is that the western governments are refusing to do so. maybe it has something to do with their initial involvement that started all of this in the first place. remember the rebels were backed, financially and militarily by the western governments in a plot to overthrow assad in just the same way they had managed to get rid of gadafi...when it went pear shaped because assad fought back the west lost control of its rebels who then went and joined up with ISIS who saw that weakened parts of iraq and syria were there for the taking. since then both the US, france, turkey, russia and the uk have taken it in turns to try and bomb the shit out of syria....to what end? there is no end for the people of syria...just more bloodshed, more death, more despair, more suffering and more abject humiliation as the world now watches on.
not having a pop at you fin25 because i think what you say stands well from an individual point of view. but i think as a whole collective we as a nation of people can make a difference by applying more pressure on this government to do more than it currently is.
this problem isnt just a western problem though...many of the middle eastern countries also have a role to play and if that means that public pressure forces this government to lean on middle eastern countries to do more then so be it.
after all some of those countries like saudi arabia are also responsible for what is going on in syria
Russia's involvement has meant Assad has emerged as the clear winner.
Which AFAICT is the least worst outcome.
I largely agree, Gonzy, the point I'm trying to make is that too many people sit around saying how terrible everything is and that our government should do something about it without getting off their backsides to either pressure the government or help in other ways. It seems that the default setting is now to blame the government without taking individual responsibility, a cop out, basically.
Daveosaurus Rex, [url= http://www.muslimsinneed.org/ ]Muslims in Need[/url] have been bloody amazing during this. They have the logistical links to really get aid moving around Syria and Lebanon (before they closed their borders). Without them, none of our local action groups would have had the reach or resources to get the aid where it needs to be.
I see you've picked two wonderfully biased quotes there THM, one a misrepresntation of his views and another the ravings of a gilted ex wife.
doesn't change the fact that the bloke was a ****ing dickhead tho tom
well feel free to help me out Tom, i asked twice but with no joy so far
admittedly my quotes did come from the guardian
thanks for your help in advance - looking forward to learning more.
Perhaps a Dictator needs to be in place to keep all the warring factions under control.
it is what it is.
pretty sickening cluster
no point in the internal finger pointing, the PM took the option to the HoC and the decision to stand back is what happened.
no arms, bombs or no-fly zones will 'certainly' improve what is happening
immediate disaster relief, even if just to patch over the mess and a UN led ceasefire
Thank you to whoever it was who posted the link to [url= http://onesolidummah.org/ ]One Solid Ummah[/url] on page 1.
You know, we can bicker on the internet all night about the history and politics of the region, but as well as that, could we get our wallets out and do something useful too? 🙂
Please buy an early Christmas present for the civilian survivors in Aleppo. They need food, water and medical supplies.
Perhaps a Dictator needs to be in place to keep all the warring factions under control.
Unfortunately that is the case all too often, Egypt for instance is back under the control of a dictator, and the west, this time in the form of the French, are selling them weapons such as Rafales and mistral assault ships.
The West, Russia and China are all too happy to sell weapons to these regimes.
I'm sure there's a Government file somewhere in the foreign office that simply says on the first page: Foreign Policy: See Economic policy.
Whilst obviously it's a tragedy that so many have been and will be killed, I for one would much rather have Assad in control. He did, until the wonderfully successful Arab Spring, which has had a catastrophic impact, in terms of the influence of islamist ideology, across the Arab world, preside over a stable and most importantly secular state. The so called rebels, certainly seem to be driven by a much more hardline Sunni element.
Thanks Tom - the alternative view was as interesting as I expected.
So now the rebels are leaving the city. So was Russian intervention right? Would it not of carried on for years to come otherwise? Iran, Saudis, Turkey, Gulf states would of kept on funding and arming their proxies to keep the fight going just as we are seeing in Yemen which is just as bleak a picture as Syria is right not and that tragedy is being undertaken by our ally using weapons we provided.
If by Russian intervention you mean bombing hospitals, schools, aid convoys then no, not right. Successful, but not right.
Fair comment, guess I am just wondering if liberating the city from siege could of been achieved at a lower humanitarian cost or was it always doomed to come at the cost it did
Thm your op+1
Other than that I predict a great deal of erudite speechifying from our leaders of all stripes and then some hand wringing. We are as complicit as many other countries in this proxy war through our relationship with Saudi Arabia. How many of our local councils, pension funds etc are invested in arms companies that supply SaudiArabia.
The Syrian government holds about 20% of the land area of the country much of which is a bombed-out and ungovernable wasteland and sooner or later Iran and Hezbollah will tire of sending their fighters to die in an unwinnable war. Maybe, six years ago, the Assad dynasty ought to have had a response to the demonstrations against their rule other that of sending the opposition's corpses home in body bags.
First, it's very debatable whether this is a liberation or not. Beyond that, a ceasefire and subsequent truce/peace deal would have been a far better way of ending the siege. The failure of all combatants in this conflict to realise that this war is unwinnable has been the cause of the greatest suffering. Killing people is never a good thing and can never be cast as such.
Secondly, Assad's forces now have free reign over the citizens of Aleppo (those who are still alive). There's already reports of hundreds of people disappearing and, if history is anything to go by, the citizens of a broken city are rarely well treated by tired soldiers, newly invigorated after a long siege.
There are no winners in this war, no heroes in their armies and little or no hope for the innocent lives at their mercy.
The civilians are just pawns in the global proxy war between the west and Russia. They want Syria, access to the Med, influence and resources, we want to halt Russia's influence.
So we arm the Rebels, Russians arm the government, civilians are just collateral.
This is how we conduct global politics and have done as far back as the beginning of history. No different to the West's intervention in Iran, our intervention in the Iraq/Iran war, the Suez crisis, Palestine, Gulf war, now us arming the Saudis so they can intervene in Yemen.
At the edges of Empires you get this friction. Keeps the government's nose clean, allows them to sell arms and the wars stay on foreign soil.
Well that was a thoroughly depressing episode of Newsnight. A dozen people all in agreement that this is terrible and no-one has either the will or ability to do much about it. 😥
I cannot remember but what are they fighting for? Western democracy?
Do you know what, chewkw, I can't be bothered.
Go score your points somewhere else.
Well that was a thoroughly depressing episode of Newsnight. A dozen people all in agreement that this is terrible and no-one has either the will or ability to do much about it.
Indeed @fin. Outstanding journalism. Stark reality.
There are many here against getting involeved in foreign wars but what we see in Syria are the consequences. The Russians and the Iranians are not so fussy
I'm not so sure us getting involved would have made much of a difference to the casualty numbers. I think the advisor guy in New York made a good point that, if we want leverage, a show of force may be necessary, as it was with Serbia, but even he accepted that no-one is likely to step up and do it.
Not much to add to what's already been posted but....unacceptable any poster should resort to points scoring on such a serious issue; western govs have no interest in a show of force - in part because they have such limited capability - and therefore allow Russia to take initiative; (relatively) indiscriminate arms sales come with consequences; anyone making an effort to help should be both applauded and supported; debate in commons was irrelevant - soundbite politics at best.
Regrettably the only strong leadership in this murderous affair has been shown by Assad and Putin - the wrong people showing leadership; where were - and are - our leaders....who represent parties which have successively shrunk our military such that we could not respond in a meaningful way even if the will was there.
Regardless of the final outcome there will be no winners. A country destroyed physically, culturally and socially. An unbelievable amount of dead. A country that will never be the same again. People that will never be the same again. For me there genuinely seems like no answer to anything. Can anyone really say who is good and who is bad. Seems to have trumped the Balkan conflict for absolute destruction and loss. The tweets from last night and the indiscriminate killing are some of the worst things I've seen in my lifetime.
The gulf between human achievement and brilliance and human horror and destruction is truly heartbreaking:(
Its going to get worse.
Soon we will have a full blown civil war in Iraq and Turkey.
Proper war between Saudi and Iran.
China is threatening lots of small players in its region, and is now alarmed at the new idiot in the White House. New cold war.
Not to mention the rest of the Arab states that are sort of in a civil war following the toppling of their respective dictators.
This, coupled with increasing food/water/climate issues will make things to come worse.
I think the advisor guy in New York
He seemed to be a full on propoganda machine, bombing the Syrian Government airfield when it could have Russian planes on it was not the brightest suggestion.
Comentators make the same points that the "rebels" include many from Al-Queda offshoots. Also propoganda from both sides about casualties and it could well be that the city is far more emplty of civilians than we have been lead to believe. There is no doubt that the "rebels" have used civilans as human shields refusing to let them leave. There is also the Mosul/Aleppo comparions in terms of viewpoints and reporting
Robert Frisk in the Independent
Spectator
In Mosul, fewer than 10,000 Isis fighters control about a million people. In eastern Aleppo, it is estimated that about 5,000 armed men, the majority linked to al–Qaeda, dominate a population of about 200,000. In each case the armed groups use the zones they occupy to attack government areas with rockets, mortars and other weapons.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/12/time-judge-assads-aleppo-campaign-standards-set-mosul/
The truth is, no-one knows the truth of what's going on in Aleppo. The suggestion to bomb an airfield was not propaganda, it was an answer to the question of how the west gets leverage.
I don't understand why some of you keep feeling the need to put up figures about how many rebels are Nusra Front or who funded this or whatever. No-one here has suggested the rebels are the good guys, but some of you constantly waving fingers about have clearly chosen your side.
The rebels are bad guys, the govt forces are bad guys, Daesh are bad guys. In the middle of all the bad guys are civilians, children, who are being used as human shields, executed for asking for freedom, punished for trying to leave, killed by mortars, barrel bombs full of chlorine, mines, hunger, disease and despair.
But yeah, I agree, the number of rebels linked to al-Queda is really relevant. 😡
I suppose we'll have to hear next about how many of the evacuated civilians are al-Queda in disguise. 🙄
I think the "rebels" have been very much painted as the good guys in the media. The fact we use the word rebel and not terrorist says a lot.
jambalaya
I think the "rebels" have been very much painted as the good guys in the media. The fact we use the word rebel and not terrorist says a lot.
Well co-alition funded radical islamists is a bit of a mouthful.
so you have established that all sides are 'bad guys'
how do you determine the allegiance of a civilian/child?
and if you do, or work out how to successfully remove them from the sitution, what then. Stand back and watch or join in?
while your initial call for help/time/money/prayer is well meaning, what assures you that your actions do not inadvertantly spark the next round?
A tragic situation. Imagine the suffering that could have been avoided if the west hadnt embarked on yet more regime change. It's a sad indictment on western media that they have been so overwhelmingly biased in favour of rebels over a legitimate leader throughout the troubles.
You'd have to be very naive indeed to believe that Western politicians and media have suddenly become 'deeply concerned' for the safety of the people of #Aleppo, when they have for years been supportive of the very terrorists who have been butchering them by the thousands.
Soobalias, the container going out this week is full of children's clothes and paracetamol. I'm pretty sure children's coats aren't going to exacerbate the conflict. 🙄
Do you know what, this is pathetic, why am I even trying to justify myself to you clowns.
What a tradgedy for humanity.
We should all be ashamed, our western governments have let us down.
We should all be ashamed, our western governments have let us down.
Ashamed of what. It's a tragic civil war but we didn't start it. We can't stop every war/conflict even if we wanted to. As far as I can see it was sparked by Assad regime brutality not anything we did.
Pro-democracy protests erupted in March 2011 in the southern city of Deraa after the arrest and torture of some teenagers who painted revolutionary slogans on a school wall. After security forces opened fire on demonstrators, killing several, more took to the streets.The unrest triggered nationwide protests demanding President Assad's resignation.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-26116868
Humanitarian aid Sure. But the conflict isn't our fault.
I don't think the war in Syria is worth the life of a single British soldier. Would anyone here be happy for their son or brother to be part of a British force going to sort out Syria?
The only reason there is no "Egyptian Civil War" is because the West doesn't want one.
Otherwise there would be one - you can be sure of that.