I know that there are some fellow ITers who hang out on here. For those involved in computer security, this should be of interest. In any case, I'd like to draw attention to this. Please make up your own mind if you wish to sign or not. You may not believe that petitions like this have any value and we now live in different times but I believe Alan Turing (along with all the people from Blethley Park such as Tommy Flowers) is a hero!
From the petition website.
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Alan Turing was the greatest computer scientist ever born in Britain. He laid the foundations of computing, helped break the Nazi Enigma code and told us how to tell whether a machine could think.
He was also gay. He was prosecuted for being gay, chemically castrated as a 'cure', and took his own life, aged 41.
The British Government should apologize to Alan Turing for his treatment and recognize that his work created much of the world we live in and saved us from Nazi Germany. And an apology would recognize the tragic consequences of prejudice that ended this man's life and career.
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[url= http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/turing/ ]Alan Turing pardon petition[/url]
Thanks you for drawing it to my attention I have signed and also thankfully I dont work in IT either.
Why on earth should the current government/PM apologise for the crazy prejudices and ideals of a long past generation?
Saw a programme on him a while ago, a true genius.
At the end of the programme it pointed out that the only thing named after him was a roundabout/junction called "The Turing Ring".
Someone in the Highways dept has a sense of humour.
Why on earth should the current government/PM apologise for the crazy prejudices and ideals of a long past generation?
I think it is because he was prosecuted and has a crimianl record due to the states
[b]crazy prejudices and ideals[/b]
>Why on earth should the current government/PM apologise for the crazy prejudices and ideals of a long past generation?
Because it's the right thing to do ?
They named a road after him in Manchester. Bet he was made up with that.
Go for it.
I don't see the point...I drive down Alan Turing Way, I can see a statue of him in Manchester city centre...I think that his greatness is well recognised and he isn't going to benefit from an apology now (even though I agree that he was treated very badly)
Why restrict it to Alan Turing? After all, homosexuality [i]was[/i] illegal for everybody. Just to apologise to one man because he was a particular sort of genius seems to say that it was actually ok to persecute all other gays because they made no particular contribution to society. That sounds like hypocracy to me, but I'm sure the right-on brigade will be along to point out my error.
Because it's the right thing to do ?
Oh right. Well then, while we're at it, let's get the Austrians to apologise for Hitler, and in 50 years time I'll expect your Grandson to apologise to the Iraquis on our behalf for the entirely pointless war that he had nothing to do with. 😆
Sorry, did he break the law or not?
Was the law morally wrong, by todays standards of course it was, however it was the law of the land and he chose to break it - should we really retrospectively apply todays standards to yesteryear?
edited to add - a true genius and as a nation we owe him and the others who worked at the stations a great deal, however like may geniuses he had his flaws...
I believe the apology thing is in some way tied to generations. Where there are people still living from the generation that committed the 'crime' there are clear grounds for an apology. I'm not big into history but Cromwell et al is firmly in the past. Turing could've been someone's great uncle (or even grandad if he'd had a go) and would have still been living in an age where homosexuality was accepted if he'd not killed himself.
And he's a f%^$in hero. And I do work in IT (encryption).
however it was the law of the land and he chose to break it
So, switcheroo, if the law was changed tomorrow so that you were no longer allowed to sleep with ladies* then would you break it?
Not a big believer in the apologist culture.
It was the fault of 'our fathers' not ours. Things have moved on. It's like apologising for slavery. WTF is the point? Why should our generation be saddled with the idiocies of the past? We've moved on.
Its up to our generation to see it does not happen again, not to aplogise.
There is the Turing Test - something to do with gayness I think.
Having sex with a sheep might be fun for some but isn't legal. If it becomes legal one day (on the grounds of ethnic minority and its tradition), will our kids need to beg for forgiveness for our dislike of it? Not that I do, having had a few dogs in my youth 😉
it was the law of the land and he chose to break it
er, I don't choose to fancy girls, I just do. Not his fault he fancied a bit of bum. Thankfully we live in amore enlightened age
?
What happened back then was not our fault, but I think an expression of regret is the decent thing to do.
And looking at the posts here there are some iconoclasts with different preferences to mine, but so long as your sheep or dog is consenting, have your fun. 🙂
great man
tragic loss for his family
campaign pointless with modern political overtones
Typical PC nonsense being pushed by that arch loony Peter Tatchell
'The Turing test is a proposal for a test of a machine's ability to demonstrate intelligence.' according to Wikipedia.
Also, the Apple logo is a (slightly cryptic) reference to Alan Turing:
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(Oh, and what's the point of apologising? Or of giving him a posthumous knighthood? He was badly treated by today's standards but probably not by the standards of the day. Sad but true.)
I think it is because he was prosecuted and has a crimianl record due to the states
crazy prejudices and ideals
Damn - I thought any criminal record elapsed when you died
I'm gonna have to come up with a new plan now
Done, and happy about it too
>Typical PC nonsense being pushed by that arch loony Peter Tatchell
So when exactly did campaigning against discrimination qualify someone to be described as an 'arch loony' ?
And from what I can see from a quick web search, it's not particularly being 'pushed' by Tatchell, unless you can say the other 28,000-odd signatories are 'pushing' it too...
Re the apologist issue - statues of people of note have generally been erected posthumorously, so why not belatedly recognise that Turing was hard done by ?
For that matter, he probably deserves a bloody statue too !
>Also, the Apple logo is a (slightly cryptic) reference to Alan Turing:
Often quoted but unlikely - more like a reference to Isaac Newton (first Apple logo was a pic of Newton sitting under a tree)
So when exactly did campaigning against discrimination qualify someone to be described as an 'arch loony' ?
It's probably all the other stuff that he does that qualifies him as a prat
What exactly would Turing get out of an apology? - nothing
Turing did a great job during the war but working at Milton Keynes was hardly on the same scale as - say - the Atlantic convoys
1000s of people worked just as hard as he did during the war & were hard done by during & after it, should we individually apologise to each & every one of them? - of course not, it's stupid
The fact that laws get changed is enough IMO
"Turing did a great job during the war but working at Milton Keynes was hardly on the same scale as - say - the Atlantic convoys"
Oh come on, the work done at Bletchley is universally recognised as some of the most important work done in the war. Ultra decrypts played a key part throughout the war- Churchill said "It was thanks to Ultra that we won the war"
If you want to talk about Atlantic convoys, ask yourselves how many lives on those ships were saved by the ultra intelligence. Again, ask Churchill- he said "The only thing that ever really frightened me during the war was the U-boat peril."- and the biggest factor in breaking that, was breaking enigma.
Just because it wasn't dangerous doesn't mean it wasn't utterly critical.
allthepies - Member
>Also, the Apple logo is a (slightly cryptic) reference to Alan Turing:Often quoted but unlikely
Well the logo does have a bite out of it... and Turing committed suicide by taking a bite from an apple laced with cyanide...
Oh come on, the work done at Bletchley is universally recognised as some of the most important work done in the war.
...............Just because it wasn't dangerous doesn't mean it wasn't utterly critical.
Absolutely - I was simply making the point that many other people put as much effort into the war as Turing did, each of them as important as the next
And I was saying you're wrong. A sailor on the atlantic convoys was putting as much or more effort in, in worse conditions, and in constant danger- but they weren't as important as the people at Bletchley, and very few of the people at Bletchley were as important as Turing. And I'm saying this despite the fact that my grandad was on the atlantic convoys 😉
I don't think he should be pardoned, incidentally- not unless everyone else prosecuted under the same laws is to be pardoned. It's part of his story and should be remembered, since it can't be undone. But I think he should receive an awful lot more attention and remembrance than he does. (the recognition he does get is welcome and I don't play it down but I also don't think it's enough, for what he and his people achieved)
I demand an apology from the Italians for the Roman invasion of Britain in 43 AD
Which has about as much relevance as a pardon for Alan Turing
Empty gesture politics
[i]I demand an apology from the Italians for the Roman invasion of Britain in 43 AD[/i]
Agreed, I mean - what have the Romans ever done for us?
just on newsnight Brown apologises on behalf of Govt.
His work is seminal , they still teach the Turing Machine theories because they are still valid. I did a bit of work at Bletchley a long time ago and its all very interesting. He was certainly an interesting character thats for sure, I'm reading a book about him just now. Saying that, other cryptographers I worked with were equally, um, unique !.
I suppose as I work in AT building (next door is BL building - any guesses?) I should support this, and I do think he was very harshly treated, but like others I'm not a big fan of the next generation apologising for the sins of the fathers.
Its up to our generation to see it does not happen again, not to aplogise.
My thoughts exactly, although history tells us that some learn the wrong lessons from history.
a true genius and as a nation we owe him and the others who worked at the stations a great deal, however like may geniuses he had his flaws...
Define "flaws" labrat.
I fully agree on his genius...
BUT what good will an apology do? The people who are in charge of the government now played no part in decisions back then. So why apologize?
That said, an apology doesn't take much effort either so if you look at it that way I suppose there's no reason why they shouldn't.
[i]Why should our generation be saddled with the idiocies of the past? We've moved on.[/i]
exactly. Why on earth should we feel ashamed of any of our country's past? We've moved on. It doesn't matter that we were utter bastards a few centuries ago, invading whoever we wanted and nicking their marbles etc. Falklands? **** 'em. Afghanistan? The decision was made a few years ago, not right now. Sod it. That Fritzl bloke? Well, that was all in the past. Full pardon. Hitler? pah. Ancient history. Circumstances were different. Good bloke really. That Plevin driver who tried to kill me this morning? 2 hours ago. Why should I be annoyed with him. etc.
[i]PM apology after Turing petition...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8249792.stm
[/i]
No! Bad boy! You have to say it like you MEAN it!
If nothing else it's put his story on the news and on the web and made it a topic for discussion 🙂
It (sadly) won't mean a thing to Turing, but its not a wasted comment on a dead subject while people like Turing are still being persecuted and executed in backward douchebag cultures all over the world.
What eat_the_pudding said. I knew who Alan Turing was, and that he played a really important role in both the Secnd World War and the development of modern computing, but I never realised the circumstances under which he chose to end his life - I had the impression that he was some sort of tortured genius with mental health issues, which is somewhat wide of the mark.
The government's apology is an important reminder that not so long ago, if you were outed as being gay, you could expect "treatment" that was basically torture - for example, "aversion therapy" that consisted of showing you gay porn then giving you an emetic so you puked your guts out. Stuff like that shouldn't be swept under the carpet.
Email from the petition website:
Thank you for signing this petition. The Prime Minister has written a
response. Please read below.
Prime Minister: 2009 has been a year of deep reflection – a chance for
Britain, as a nation, to commemorate the profound debts we owe to those who
came before. A unique combination of anniversaries and events have stirred
in us that sense of pride and gratitude which characterise the British
experience. Earlier this year I stood with Presidents Sarkozy and Obama to
honour the service and the sacrifice of the heroes who stormed the beaches
of Normandy 65 years ago. And just last week, we marked the 70 years which
have passed since the British government declared its willingness to take
up arms against Fascism and declared the outbreak of World War Two. So I am
both pleased and proud that, thanks to a coalition of computer scientists,
historians and LGBT activists, we have this year a chance to mark and
celebrate another contribution to Britain’s fight against the darkness of
dictatorship; that of code-breaker Alan Turing.
Turing was a quite brilliant mathematician, most famous for his work on
breaking the German Enigma codes. It is no exaggeration to say that,
without his outstanding contribution, the history of World War Two could
well have been very different. He truly was one of those individuals we can
point to whose unique contribution helped to turn the tide of war. The debt
of gratitude he is owed makes it all the more horrifying, therefore, that
he was treated so inhumanely. In 1952, he was convicted of ‘gross
indecency’ – in effect, tried for being gay. His sentence – and he
was faced with the miserable choice of this or prison - was chemical
castration by a series of injections of female hormones. He took his own
life just two years later.
Thousands of people have come together to demand justice for Alan Turing
and recognition of the appalling way he was treated. While Turing was dealt
with under the law of the time and we can't put the clock back, his
treatment was of course utterly unfair and I am pleased to have the chance
to say how deeply sorry I and we all are for what happened to him. Alan and
the many thousands of other gay men who were convicted as he was convicted
under homophobic laws were treated terribly. Over the years millions more
lived in fear of conviction.
I am proud that those days are gone and that in the last 12 years this
government has done so much to make life fairer and more equal for our LGBT
community. This recognition of Alan’s status as one of Britain’s most
famous victims of homophobia is another step towards equality and long
overdue.
But even more than that, Alan deserves recognition for his contribution to
humankind. For those of us born after 1945, into a Europe which is united,
democratic and at peace, it is hard to imagine that our continent was once
the theatre of mankind’s darkest hour. It is difficult to believe that in
living memory, people could become so consumed by hate – by
anti-Semitism, by homophobia, by xenophobia and other murderous prejudices
– that the gas chambers and crematoria became a piece of the European
landscape as surely as the galleries and universities and concert halls
which had marked out the European civilisation for hundreds of years. It is
thanks to men and women who were totally committed to fighting fascism,
people like Alan Turing, that the horrors of the Holocaust and of total war
are part of Europe’s history and not Europe’s present.
So on behalf of the British government, and all those who live freely
thanks to Alan’s work I am very proud to say: we’re sorry, you deserved
so much better.
Gordon Brown
I think that Gordon Brown is absolutely spot on. And I never thought I'd say that!
Alan Turing was a very clever man, and due to something not quite understod,and that people at the time where affraid of and are still are, he was forced to show his love to other men in private,no emotional hugging or kissing as is allowed in the hetrosexual comunity,he and his fellow gay men lived in fear of being outed,loosing their jobs and freinds,beeing queer bashed, or worse.
Even though gay sex has been legal since 1967,there are still a lot of people who dont accept it,hate gay people and even kill them all for their sexuality.
Let us also not forget all the homosexuals that the germans killed in the last war,in the death camps of Auswitz and others.
Today a government consul was reported as being murdered in Jamaica, for being gay, yet he was married and had kids.
Obviously an important matter. Just a shame our Glorious Leader hasn't looked at some of the other petitions quite as closely...
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After hearing Turing described as "a codebreaker" dozens of times this morning, I'm tempted to get a new petition going that he should be recognised as laying down the theoretical foundations of computer science.
Not one mention of Turing Machines, computability, the halting problem, or even of the Manchester Mark One. People know what Newton or Watt did, but when it comes to Turing only one application of his work is ever referred to. It's amazing how computers (and more important, the fact that a machine that can mimic any other machine is even possible) are taken for granted in this way.
"After hearing Turing described as "a codebreaker" dozens of times this morning, I'm tempted to get a new petition going that he should be recognised as laying down the theoretical foundations of computer science.
Not one mention of Turing Machines, computability, the halting problem, or even of the Manchester Mark One. People know what Newton or Watt did, but when it comes to Turing only one application of his work is ever referred to. It's amazing how computers (and more important, the fact that a machine that can mimic any other machine is even possible) are taken for granted in this way."
Bingo. Like I said up the page, for the short-term results he helped produce in WW2 alone, he should be renowned, respected and lauded as a national hero- but that's only a fraction of what he achieved. For his full body of work, he should be a bloody icon.
One of my customers lives in Turings old house. It's a beautiful building on a gorgeous leafy road in Cheshire.
Only a couple of years ago were they able to put up the blue plaque bearing his name.
It is not classified that QinetiQ in Malvern have a buildings named after Brian Lovell and Alan Turing.
SSOs might not like people announcing that they work there on internet forums though. Think on.
SSOs might not like people announcing that they work there on internet forums though. Think on.
Oh come on. That sort of thing went out years ago - I mean where am I supposed to say I work when I'm an engineer working in Malvern?
I could of course based on your location, job description and acronym knowledge (and the fact you don't actually know what BL stands for, which means you almost certainly don't work at my place) have a pretty good guess where it is you work - I'd wager your employers would be rather more bothered than mine about giving away details like that 😉
Sorry Chris. I'll buy you a Ritazza coffee if you can work out who I am 😉
I must say that I'm pleasantly surprised at this very nicely written and humane response to the petition.
I overheard some guys at work discussing this yesterday. They knew a fair bit about Alan Turing, but they'd assumed that his suicide was a result of depression and they hadn't previously been aware of the full story of his treatment by the authorities.
This sort of thing is about so much more than merely apologising for the actions of previous generations. Firstly it gives our political leaders the opportunity to show leadership and restate their values and ideals for our society today in the context of past injustices. Secondly it acts as a consciousness raiser. It has raised awareness of Turing's ground-breaking work in mathematics, computer science and cryptography, of the fact that despite his major contribution to the Allied victory in WW2 he was persecuted and hounded to his death for being gay, of the fact that for gay men in the post-war period Britain was to all intents and purposes a police state.
I genuinely believe that the more informed and aware people are the less inclined they will be to prejudice. The fact that the petition and the PM's response have attracted so much positive media attention has been very encouraging.