I am on the board of a charitable housing trust and we provide housing at social rent levels.
We are currently renovating a vacant property and are debating which type of heating to install. It is an old stone built house but the walls and floors have been well insulated during the renovation so far.
Originally oil fired was specified and so microbore piping for the rads was installed and this may be the deciding factor even though our heating engineer say he can make it work.
Some of our board are now wanting to tick the green box and are pushing for air source which I agree would be nice but the overiding factor is it has to be affordable to run for low income tenants.
Does anyone have experience they could share of the cost comparisons please?
This is down to thermal efficiency of the building, needs to be done by calculation. Heating oil prices are pretty volatile so a straight cost comparison isnt that easy. Is there a secondary heat source I.e log burner?
Yes there is a og burner in the sitting room. It is a small property one bedroomed. The bedroom and bathroom are above the sitting room with the kitchen in a single story extension. I went in today to speak to the builder, he was working upstairs where it was very warm after he had had an electric heater running for an hour earlier in the day downstairs.
Small is good from a heat loss pov. Again, you need to do the maths but ashp likely to be cheaper particularly if topped up with a log burner in cold weather.
Article here suggests similar running costs at present. Oil prices are generally more volatile than electric (can be good and bad). Electricity is heading towards carbon neutral (nominally by 2030) so may be less pollution tax in the future.
Oil is storage faff that electricity isn't for a tenant.
https://www.goodenergy.co.uk/blog/how-much-do-oil-boilers-cost-to-run/
A lot depends on the set up and installation. You have to convince people that it's cheaper to leave a heat pump running all the time, even when you're out, and a lot of people can't understand this because science.
Another consideration is, if these are low income residents, are they going to be able to afford biggish deliveries of oil?
1000L is nearly £600 ATM.
Although that would last a long time could they deal with that sort of outgoing in a single transaction compared to electricity which is spread out over each month?
That ^ is a very good point to consider.
Pair air source it with solar panels and a battery and you'll get very low costs as long as you are well insulated. Also try to spec propane as the refrigerant for the heat pump if it is somewhere that will consistently see minus temperatures during winter. Down from circa 270 a month for "all energy" to 20 a month here after switching from gas to air source. That is down to being able to purchase cheap electricity stored in the battery at night to top up the energy provided by solar, having excess energy to export during the summer and having an air source CoP of over 3.5 on average over the year.
Another potential issue is running out of oil; if they do run out....what do the occupants do if there's a minimum delivery amount of oil, they don't have the cash for that (or the engineer attendance to sort out the now bone dry oil boiler with airlocks in some pipework?)
No contest really. ASHP wins on a couple of things straight off: no massive tank of stealable, expensive, dino juice hanging around; clean and efficient.
edit: running costs - I would be surprised if ASHP running costs were higher than oil CH. but this will depend somewhat on the price of oil when the folks buy a tank full. At least the ASHP running costs can be regularly assessed and the electricity tariff chosen appropriately and conveniently. Plus, as has been said, solar and batteries can make a difference.
only drawback is the microbore pipe. But that should have been replaced with at least 15mm anyway.
good luck.
Another potential issue is running out of oil; if they do run out...
Yep. Heating with oil does require a bit of interaction but it's getting better.
Minimum delivery is 500L (£300 atm)
)Pair air source it with solar panels and a battery and you'll get very low costs
Sounds like the house is small so very little scope for PV plus the extra costs.
Oil would certainly be the cheapest install solution. I would have thought microbore could be an issue for ASHP.
Surprised anyone installs microbore piping these days as it can't cost much more at renovation stage to install bigger pipes suitable for future switch to ASHP.
All new heating systems must be designed for low flow temperatures, 55°C, this is part of the Building Regulations, not sure if it is UK wide you would need to check locally.
This is regardless of the fuel used so I suspect the microbore is not suitable for any system, I would have it removed, ask to see the heat loss calculations for the property and get the system designed correctly.
ASHP should be cheaper than oil, providing the system is designed and installed correctly, the end user is given the correct advice on how to use it (see comments above) and the right energy tariff is chosen.
Install should be cheaper than oil too as it will be zero rated for VAT and there should be a grant available.
As mentioned above the cost for the radiators and pipework should be the same as it it designed to the same sort of temperatures, by the time you buy an oil tank and boiler, that is probably more expensive than an ASHP. Especially as one is subject to 20%!
I think the difficulty in comparing to the two is having to second guess what the needs of a tenant you presumably don't already have are. The big difference really between the two options - for a tenant - is they are two very different styles of operation that suit two different lifestyles. Oil is very much heat on demand, ASHP is more about a steady supply. So a lot depends on how you live you life - some people's lives revolve more around being at home and that steady supply is perfect (retirees or someone with a young family perhaps), if you're out working all the time the idea of heating a house you are not in is unattractive and coming home to a house that will then take hours to warm up isn't ideal either (I stayed in a new-built apartment for a job a few years ago that was ASHP and it took 2 days from my arrival for it to feel like the heating was actually working). In a gig economy era some people will prefer occasional on-off payments for oil over a fixed monthly overhead for electric
If you don't have that tenant yet you either need to look at the house as an offer to tenants - is it more suitable for a working couple? is it somewhere for children? (A small house with a garden might suit older tenants)- or look at the need locally in terms of demand and shortfall. Whichever heat system you choose you just state it as part of the offer and let prospective tenants choose whether it suits them or not.
I think you need a realistic assesment of how the ASHP with microbore pipes will workout practically in the long term - the engineer saying he can 'make it work' isn't the same as the result being effective or economical for someone to live with.
Regardless of if you are in or not the ASHP should be set to run at a constant background temp, probably about 2° -3° below desired set point.
Mine is set to heat the flat to 22° from 1-4pm when we are both \t work, but that is using cheap electricity. It is then off during the expensive period but we have put enough heat into the building fabric for it to retain the heat.
Our average electricity price is 18p/kW by utilising the cheap rate. In fact I have just heated the hot water to 62°C for nothing during a period of free electricity.
As mentioned above the cost for the radiators and pipework should be the same as it it designed to the same sort of temperatures, by the time you buy an oil tank and boiler
It sounds like the existing rads and pipework could be used with oil though which would reduce the cost - otherwise an ASHP would surely be the way to go. Good point about the tank cost though if there isn't one already.
the engineer saying he can 'make it work' isn't the same as the result being effective or economical
Very much this..... doesn't fill you with confidence!
some people will prefer occasional on-off payments for oil over a fixed monthly overhead for electric
Yep. And little planning does allow you to buy oil when it's cheaper (i.e. the summer) and you don't end up paying money to the electricity company in the summer when you're not using it.
Another complication: If the property is tenanted then how do you deal with oil that has been purchased by the tenants but is still in the tank when they leave?
In addition to this are the costs involved if/when the tank runs dry because they couldn't afford another 500L - at least with electricity you don't potentially need to call out a heating guy if you run out of credit!
It's quite tricky and a lot depends, already said, on the type of tenant and the tenancy period.
I'm still running on oil and have just ordered again as prices aren't too bad at the moment. 1.5 p a litre cheaper than this time last year and cheaper tan last time I topped up in March as well. Quite a few companies will run an account for you and take monthly payments too so you don't have a big bill at one time but it does need planning.
I don't know which is best for your situation. But it looks to be a failure of government policy that this isn't a no-brainer. Building regs should have forced use of ASHP-compatible system in the renovation; and cost of electricity should be reduced and oil increased (by rebalancing levies) so running cost for ASHP is cheaper.
and cost of electricity should be reduced and oil increased (by rebalancing levies) so running cost for ASHP is cheaper.
Electricity is already cheap and it's an interesting idea to increase the cost of fuel to force ASHP upon even those who can't afford to change. 🙄
Based on secondary heat source (log burner) that would provide instant heat, the sensible choice for me would be ASHP. Regular, low level heating with the log burner to boost heat as and when required.
Oil fired on that small a property with improved insulation, would they even get through 1000ltrs in a year? Although, tbf, you can set up a standing order to pay monthly into an account for oil, you may end up out of phase being in credit before you need oil, not a sensible position to be in if you're short of cash.
If you do go ASHP get some who knows what they're doing and get it supplied as a complete system for heating & hot water including the controls.
Might be slightly more expensive, but better than a "cobbled together" system from many different suppliers/manufacturers which won't have constant issues and will run properly.
Sharkbait - electricity could be cheaper, the price is fixed by the cost of the gas that is sometimes used to generate it, not the actual cost it takes to generate electricity.
I do agree though, you can't just go and make electricity way cheaper and put the tariff on other fuels as you will plunge millions into fuel poverty. You can however charge a cheaper rate for when it is used with a heat pump as many suppliers do now anyway. Then the running cost of a heat pump is way lower than nearly anything else, providing the system is properly designed and installed of course.
Pair air source it with solar panels and a battery and you'll get very low costs as long as you are well insulated
That isnt working for us at all since the end of September. 4kW of panels, 9kW of battery, which are charged to a maximum of 15% every day. If we were on a cheap overnight trip, we could fill up the batteries, but we have to wait another 8 months or so to get on a cheap overnight tariff.
In the Summer months, our electric cost is around 75pence per day, which is a bonus, but it isnt an all year round thing due to short daylight hours and overcast skies.
To the OP, for such a small property, ASHP would be my choice. Though oil has been the cheapest form of heating for the last 4 years, maybe more.
Ooh. Meant to say. My recommendation for a battery was entirely based on being able to access a cheap overnight tariff. Intelligent Octopus Go is 7.5p/kWh overnight.
No idea if relevant, but the chap from Heat Geek was interviewed by Rob Llewellyn a few weeks ago, and he was saying how they've analysed years of heat pump installs with AI, and the outcome was that they've been over-engineering everything, so their installs are now cheaper/shorter and still work fine.
Very little pushback on what he was saying, but he mentioned they were now getting them in and working with less upgrades to pipes, rads, etc.
Oil fired on that small a property with improved insulation, would they even get through 1000ltrs in a year?
No. And if it does it's not very well insulated at all
But ashp.....does the property that small have somewhere suitable to stick a heatpump ........ Installer that came to see me wouldn't stick it under a window due to noise nor would he fit it on the north side of my house - both reasons I fully understand ....didn't leave him many options though.
Oil though 5.2p/kWh currently. And tbh if you time the buy and avoid the peak cold snaps when prices sky rocket they have been fairly consistent for the last 15 years as opposed to leccy and gas which have only been climbing........
Install costs also significantly less.
But for ticking a box ashp wins.
If your tenant can't get time-of-day tariffs then it will be vastly more expensive than oil, particularly so if they're on a pre-payment meter.
Numbers-wise, when it's mild (as it has been this last week) I use 12kWh for the heating and hot water combined. When the temperature hovers around freezing or goes below, it's closer to 30kWh. ~£8/day roughly vs £6 for oil (and likely much less if the oil boiler only runs for a few hours a day).
It's cheaper for me in milder conditions and I have 10kWh of batteries and can fill them up at 7p/kWh. In your example I'd definitely just get another oil boiler fitted. You can also use an oil boiler to heat the house for short periods, an ASHP isn't flexible enough for this.
Installing an ASHP might not get you the tick-box you need environmentally either; they count as electric heating on an EPC and dragged my house from B to C.
Thanks all! Lots of food for thought there. Personally, I am thinking oil may be the best solution. Mainly for the flexibility it offers in running options which could make it cheaper. Having just read up a bit about what is needed to run air source through microbore it doesn't fill me with confidence. Replacing the microbore is not an option as all the walls have just had the plastering finished.
As others have said, many heating oil companies will let you pay in instalments in advance, and Boiler Juice have a new doohickey that monitors the level in your tank and will automatically order a top-up.
For social housing, the main priority should be affordable running costs, not just ticking the green box. An air source heat pump can be efficient in a well-insulated house, but only if the system (radiators and pipework) is designed for low temperatures — microbore and standard rads may not be ideal without upgrades<a href=" removed link " target="_blank" rel="noopener">. Oil may have a lower upfront cost, but it comes with price volatility and higher maintenance. The safest approach is to get a proper heat loss calculation and a projected annual cost comparison before deciding, since design quality will matter more than the heating type itself.
For social housing, the main priority should be affordable running costs, not just ticking the green box.
I agree entirely. The decision has now been made to install oil. We had a board meeting with the heating engineer where there was still a bit of indecision from some members who wanted to tick the green box. I posed the following question to the HE "If you had to personally guarantee that the system would prove to be affordable i.e pay for an alternate boiler if it didn't. Which would you fit?" Without hesitation he answered oil so that was decision made.
"In the UK, the ban on installing new oil heating systems in off-grid homes has been pushed back to 2035, extended from an original 2026 plan. By 2035, the government aims for an 80% phase-out rate, requiring homeowners to switch to low-carbon alternatives like heat pumps, though some exceptions apply"
We had a new oil boiler put in approx 5 yrs ago as we believe for us its the cheapest way to heat our house. Although the house is roughly 2010, it was built with next to no insulation, so we guess it would cost a fortune to heat with heat pump.
Oil is relatively cheap IMO, however you need a boiler £5k ish and tank £2k+ ish. The tanks also come attached with building regs as to where they can be located. Minimum oil quantity we are allowed to order at one time is 500ltrs which is approx £300 (cash) We just had 1000ltrs this week which cost us £just under £600.
The reality is oil is old tech and you would be stupid to put it in, plus see below the gov wont support it.
However I would seriously look at whether heatpump is the way to go or is there some other form of electric heating that could be cheaper?
Make use of grants Find energy grants for your home (Help to Heat) - GOV.UK
Another factor to consider with oil is security of the tank - we lived for a bit in a quite remote property in a converted steading. The oil tanks were alongside, accessible from the road. Oil theft was rife in the area, particularly those that had just had their winter fuel drop.
Yep that and in theory you might need specialist insurance. The fines and costs of oil clean up are huge
Without hesitation he answered oil so that was decision made.
Because I bet he is an oil / gas engineer not a heat pump engineer 🤣
Genuinely think its the wrong decision for affordable housing.
Is your thinking and theory based on anything factual though ?
Doesn't look much like it.
Note that presently (IIRC) most of the carbon taxes are on the less carbon intensive electric not the more carbon intensive oil and gas.
I suspect that cross-subsidy of oil and gas will be ended in the not to distant future.
Checking the interweb…
- Electricity: Generally subject to higher taxes, carbon pricing, and levies (approx. 23% of total cost).
- Gas: Generally subject to lower taxes, with fewer policy costs (approx. 2% of total cost).
- Heating Oil (Kerosene): Generally has lower, direct carbon costs compared to electricity, often taxed under fuel duty, although the government has signalled a shift toward rebalancing these taxes to reflect carbon content.
Level of insulation is irrelevant when comparing running costs. A building needing 20kw needs 20kw regardless of the fuel used.
you could argue that the higher the load if ASHP is cheaper to run the bigger the saving. And it should be cheaper than oil given a good design and installation coupled with the correct tariff
Bear, actually that's not correct. Well, it's not correct when heat pumps are involved.
Just looking at oil, if the heat demand it halved, then (*give or take) the consumption will also be halved. There are potenitally some changes to the efficiency, but it really amounts to not worth bothering about for this discussion. For this lets just assume oil is 100% efficient.
In a heat pump though, the difference can be massive, in the order of 100's of percent. I can't think of how to explain it exactly, but in effect heat pumps work considerably better when they are in their optimu range. In one extereme, when they are ragged hard in a situation that doesn't favour them (usually rads too smaill, so temp has to be way too high), they can be as low as approx 100% efficient. Someone feel free to correct me, but I don't think they go much below 100%(ish). Now, in a situation that favours them, they really come into their own, and can (genuinely) hit 5, 6 or even 700% efficient. When instlaled correctly they can run at an almost magical sweet spot, and suddenly become cheaper than other fuels/systems.
OP, if you are interested in getting some real insight to the current situation, get a "heat geet" accreditted installer to give you a survey. They will tell you one way or another how the land really lies. And give you a realistic estimate of associated costs.
It’s totally correct. You are assuming undersized radiators then yes a heat pump will be terrible but that will be the case in a house that needs 5kw or 500kw.
If you need 20kw you design the emitter system correctly to deliver that at the relevant flow temperature then the heat pump will be hitting that higher efficiency. You also assume 100% efficiency for oil boiler which is impossible.
There are other options than Heat Geek and his disciples.
Undersize radiators with any fuel and it will be rubbish
I saw an interesting video recently (not suggesting it’s suitable here in a rental) where the home owner had passed on the ASHP grants and kept hoods boiler, but installed individual air to air heat pumps. (So internal air con style units on the walls)
The suggestion was that it’s great as it was cheaper than a full wet system, didn’t need rad/pipe upgrades, when it’s really cold they can use the boiler rather than rag the ASHPs into the inefficient range, and it had substantially reduced the humidity in the solid walled house.
Bear, sorry, I misread your post. My bad.
usually rads too smaill, so temp has to be way too high), they can be as low as approx 100% efficient. Someone feel free to correct me, but I don't think they go much below 100%(ish). Now, in a situation that favours them, they really come into their own, and can (genuinely) hit 5, 6 or even 700% efficient.
basic electric heating - a kettle or oven element effectively - is near enough 100% efficient. all the electricity is coverted into heat, very little into light or anything else. So basic electric heating is cheap (hardware wise - a fan heater or electric radiator costs a few £10's) but costs c 3x as much as gas to generate the same amount of heat.
a heat pump averaging at 300% will be about the same cost as gas, but they can achieve better than that if well installed and specced. Traditionally heating engineers massively overspecced gas boilers - they didn't bother with accurate heat calcs because an oversized boiler made them more money up front, kept the property warm so no complaints, and if it cost slightly more to run the homeowner was none the wiser (and the inefficiency was relatively small). Whereas I get the impression that an mis-sized heat pump - whether under or over - can significantly reduce efficiency such that it does show up on bills.
I don't necessarily think gas boilers are always over-speced to the heating load as such, more that most are combis doing the hot water, and you need 28kW or more for decent hot water flow. Then of course, most gas boilers modulate the burner down to 50%, 30% or even less. Throw in clever flow temperature control (e.g. weather compensation), a gas boiler ticking over a min modulation and <50C flow is very efficient. 97% ?
Anyway, oil and wood here. Although the thread did make me think that in serveral years when the boiler is end of life, what to do? I'd always struggled with where to physically locate a ASHP, without hideous pipe work (current heating install was DIY, and artistry in copper IMHO, even the pro plumber commissioning the boiler was impressed). The solution hit me the other day, using the existing RSJ across the kitchen to route pipework towards the rear of the house, down inside (hidden behind kitchen units), and then underground to cross the walkway to the "bins and utility" area. There's too many ASHP installs with external pipe runs up the roof space, on the front of the house. Ugly!
Heating oil prices have rocketed. 2 weeks ago roughly 55p/ltr now 85p/ltr +
That is a huge amount of extra cash for someone to find, and prices will only keep going up for now
Really was a bad decision
Really was a bad decision
Well yes and no.
Prices have gone up but you don't pay the new price until you need more oil. IF I had a full tank I wouldn't need to buy more oil for about 18 months - as it is I've got enough for about 6-8 weeks (depending on the weather) and I ordered more on Monday morning but I don't know what the price is yet.
Gas price has doubled and electricity prices are not immune long term.
I still have more trust in my 30 year old oil boiler than I would in an ASHP at the moment.
As sharkbait says, unless you need oil this instant you're effectively hedged against the rising prices better than someone who needs pure gas or electricity to heat their home. Even at 88p/litre and a heat pump at perfect efficiency, without being able to buy at off-peak rates you're only paying fractionally more.
The take-away from this is that our electricity generation is so badly regulated that in many circumstances it's still cheaper to deliver pressure-cooked dinosaurs to your home and set fire to them than it is to use a heat pump.
Prices have gone up but you don't pay the new price until you need more oil.
My point is low income households would have struggled to pay for the minimum order value previously let alone now.
So they would be more likely to run out more often than someone who can afford to fill 2,000ltrs at a time
My point is low income households would have struggled to pay for the minimum order value previously let alone now.
I get that, but if you've got 500L of oil now that should last a small property [like in the OP] an easy 6 months - so it's not completely clear cut.
So they would be more likely to run out more often than someone who can afford to fill 2,000ltrs at a time
[Quite possibly true]
I wish I could 😫
MIL paid £1.20 a litre this morning, no price given unless you confirmed the order first ....
MIL paid £1.20 a litre this morning, no price given unless you confirmed the order first ....
Ouch!
When I placed the order on Monday morning they said thy couldn't give a def price until delivery which is in the next few days - if it's that much I'll cancel.
Edit: just called and the price is whatever they are being charged on the day of delivery so by Friday it may well have gone up from todays price (80-something) to over £1. I'm not paying that so I've cancelled.
get that, but if you've got 500L of oil now that should last a small property [like in the OP] an easy 6 months - so it's not completely clear cut.
Fair point hopefully that a smaller well insulated house would do better.
We filled 1,000ltrs mid December and had to refill just before this all kicked off
We use Boilerjuice and luckily they placed an order for me mid Feb at 61p/l, it was due to be delivered Monday. Didn't expect it to turn up, but it did, so hopefully we now have enough to last us a while - they milder weather will help as well.
We filled 1,000ltrs mid December and had to refill just before this all kicked off
Wow. You'll be loving your leccy bill when you get a heat pump then
1400l filled up last may and still have a half tank.
Wow. You'll be loving your leccy bill when you get a heat pump then
It’s our fault buying a house built by a built by a builder ie built his own house. There’s naff all insulation in it even though the house was built in the 2010’s
1400l filled up last may and still have a half tank.
The average house uses 11,000 kWh of energy for heating alone. You could have a wood burner but you still have to pay for logs, in general, in exchange for polluting the local environment.
You're claiming to use just under half the average, so what you're actually saying is that you like to keep your house like a fridge.
i guess thats the problem with averages isnt it .
i guess thats the problem with averages isnt it .
Indeed, but it's no reason to be sanctimonious about other people's heating bills.
That's a big word. Will it change how much energy output he requires to achieve the same heat.