MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Here's hoping there's a genius on here who can give a long-distance diagnosis, or at least useful advice dealing with the garage 🙂
We bought a new (to us!) Renault Grand Scenic (MK3, 2009, 1.5 diesel) and a couple of weeks later went on holiday to Scotland.
It was perfectly fine until one day we pulled in to a layby for a break, then on starting off again the engine was made a loud whining/roaring sound and had very little power, wouldn't get above 30mph or so.
Pulled over and called for assistance, the AA guy said he'd follow us home but then it wouldn't go above 5mph or up the very slight incline at all. No more loud sounds, but a bit of worrying rattling before it conked out.
I suspected the turbo cos of the spinny sounds (not that I know much), AA guy agreed due to the symptoms.
Anyways... after a tow back the local garage has a look and say diagnostics show the high pressure fuel pump has died.
It's now a month later, after much faffing they've finally fitted the new pump and it's still not working.
They say the fact that it starts, runs a bit and dies points to a valve or piston head being the problem, however this needs a full engine strip down to even have a proper look at.
They're going to discuss what the options are and get back to me tomorrow. There's a Renault garage fairly nearby in Dumfries which might know more.
The worst thing about the whole saga is that I had to leave my bike behind as we couldn't bring it back on the train! And I've missed the last month of beautiful weather for riding 🙁
Can anyone offer any sage advice?
Is there some common Renault problem that you know of?
Does it really need a full engine strip down (garage says a very big job)?
Should I just call it a write off? I bought it for 2.5k
Wow that's more text than I expected when starting this.
You can check the internals with a fibre optic scope - relativly cheap to do
it does not sound like a major engine issue to me - that would be loads of clattering and smoke
Get it to a renalt garage
Did you get a warning lamp on the dash after the roar, a yellow spanner or triangle?
Doubt its a valve tbh or a piston.
A few ideas that the garage should have checked. Collapsed air filter or hose from the air box to turbo or all the way to the inlet manifold
Split exhaust
Full up dpf
Collapsed catalytic converter t
A valve burnt wouldn't do the run / die scemario
Outlying chance the cambelt jumped a tooth, but the roar would be unnoticed
Ecu fail might do the above, esp ad the ecu generates the error codes and if it's s borked it cant self diagnose
Set fire to it.
K9k engine...
Very good motor in my opinion. Though....
I had one of these at Nissan with a running fault gave alsorts of codes. Took ages to find it.
Found a cam lobe had spun....
The cam shaft is a tube and the lobes are pressed over it....
But a roaring noise suggests an inter cooler or boost pipe issue. If it's on your drive I'm in newton stewart I can come have a listen. I'm not on the spannering side now (been off a good while) but happy to have a quick look over a brew.
As above, noise and initial symptoms point to an issue with the inlet side at or after the turbo. The fuel pump may have been an issue that they found but maybe not the original failure (or was on the way out). First port is to get the hoses checked and the turbo while there. Should be able to take a hose/pipe off and see/feel the turbo (with the ignition off!). Any state of turbo that is not in pieces should be ok as far as trouble shooting goes. Then check the fuel system. They've done the pump so check for large leaks around the rail accross the engine and the lines that go to/from it. With that amount of power drop you should see piles of fuel if its a leak.
Failing the fix route did you buy it from a dealer? fail like that after 2 weeks should be a money back situation IMO. Private sale is less easy.
the engine was made a loud whining/roaring sound and had very little power, wouldn’t get above 30mph or so.
Sounds like it could be a turbo issue/stuck open wastegate
This might not be helpful but an 09 Renault is not going to hold much value. I'd just cash in now and get what you can and move on. Diagnostic work can get very expensive. I had an 05 Scenic and it had no end of problems. In your shoes I'd make some calls re getting shut and I'd be making arrangements to get the bike back.
Did you get a warning lamp on the dash after the roar, a yellow spanner or triangle?
Not at first, only after the tow back and several driving attempts, so the yellow spanner showed after maybe an hour or so.
If it’s on your drive I’m in newton stewart I can come have a listen
It's at a garage in Thornhill, thanks for the offer though!
Wish it was on my drive in a way. Don't know what they have already tried and not really sure about suggesting stuff to them, seems rude. Did mention the turbo but they didn't say anything either way, just seemed to brush it off. Can only assume they've checked it.
Thornhill near stirling? I have a mechanic pal nearby - we could rescue the car for you and give it a once over if you like?
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duncancallum
Full MemberK9k engine…
Very good motor in my opinion. Though….
The cam shaft is a tube and the lobes are pressed over it….
Sounds like quite a shit engine in my opinion.
Anyways… after a tow back the local garage has a look and say diagnostics show the high pressure fuel pump has died.
It’s now a month later, after much faffing they’ve finally fitted the new pump and it’s still not working.
They say the fact that it starts, runs a bit and dies
HP fuel pumps can fling a bit of metal swarf out when they fail which then kills the injectors. As excess fuel is returned to the tank from the fuel rail the whole system becomes contaminated with metal particles and needs replacing/flushing.
Ask if the garage changed the fuel filter or check if it's a nice clean new filter....if not easy job to remove it and cut it open, any shiny silver swsrf/metal filings then write the car off.
They say the fact that it starts, runs a bit and dies
Rules out boost/turbo/valve interface/timing.
Cars with borked turbos run ok
Just down on power
The injector pump internals being thrown into the fuel system is a possibility as the ecu wont throw a code as the hp sensors will be in range
Doubt there is a flow rate sensor on there tho
Does not explain the roar
My v70 d5 goes noisy when its drops onto limp mode and smells
So did my saab 2.2tid, one is vvt related, one cps.
5 years ago my MK3 Scenic with same engine died without warning just a few kilometers from my house. Towed away, it sat few days at the garage but finally they "reprogrammed high pressure pump" and it was running smoothly ever after that. Apparently the dealer and importer had not had similar case ever before.
Rest of the ownership was trouble free - I traded it in a week later.
Thanks TJ, it's the Thornhill near Dumfries though.
I'll speak to them again later today and report back.
The fact that the symptoms started after having restarted it should be a clue. I had a roaring noise that turned out to be the automatic clutch in the pulley that drives the alternator. I didn't even know there was a clutch in there. The loss of power could be a 'limp mode' - when the ECU detects a fault that may damage the engine, it limits the power available. It might help to get it to a Renault garage with full diagnostics and even more important somebody who understands that engine. There's a tendency to regard diagnostics as "computer says" and the codes certainly help but really it requires logical thought and understanding how the engine works.
Most modern stuff is like this now. Cost of manufacturing...
Still rate it as a good small capacity diesel. Better than the 1.6hdi in my opinion.
When you says run as ticks over cleanly and smoothly. Why did the go for the HP pump. Did they get the old one tested? Normally youd test injectors as well. I still think turbo ish but...
Surely if a compression issue has been suggested the garage would have done conpression tests?
Given the engine and the description, I'd certainly be looking at the turbo.
Running briefly then cutting out is a sign of strangulation, probably because the intercooler is now sitting full of oil from the turbo failing.
However without hearing the engine running, or being able to see any live data, that is just a guess.
I'd certainly be looking for a better garage give their apparent inability to anything other than play parts darts.
Had a crackly patchy Scottish-accented phone call (so I might have missed a couple of details!) but what I gathered is:
Fuel pressure was low, after replacing the pump fuel pressure is now up but it's still not starting.
It seems like injector 1 is not working properly, they could do the work to investigate this, replace it or whatever, but there's no guarantee they wouldn't then find injector 2 is not working and so on.
Fuel filter is before the pump so not much point looking in there for metal filings, but yes maybe it's that affecting the injectors, who knows.
Injectors are not a cheap part.
Basically they don't know what's wrong and it's just a question of how much money do I want to throw at it. I'll call them tomorrow to find out exactly what the cost is so far, before I decide on this. It is under warranty, so I'm covered up to a point (I think 2k worth of repairs? But the fuel pump alone was £800).
Before they had it, symptoms were that it started and ticked over fine, however when trying to apply power it cut out at anything above a crawl, sometimes with a noise and once with a cloud of smoke.
Now apparently it doesn't start at all.
He did mention something about checking the compression but I'm not sure of his point, didn't gather if they had done this or not.
If an injector is leaking itll always have low pressure... as it's like pumping a tyre up with a hole in it. They should have done a leak off test.
The filters worth checking as theres a fuel return line... so if its pushing swarf though it winds up back in the tank.
They sound inept tbf
Also have you had warranty authority for doing the pump. If not get your wallet out.
Years ago my OH's Freelander had a high-pressure pump failure, but we only discovered this was the cause after the injectors and the low pressure pump failed...
Basically they don’t know what’s wrong and it’s just a question of how much money do I want to throw at it.
Taking it to a Renault dealer for diagnosis would be my advice if the current garage can't figure out what's wrong.
It's impossible to diagnose the problem on the internet based on your description of the symptoms, but it's very likely to involve major repairs that will cost more than the vehicle is worth. I would not throw any more money at it unless I knew exactly what went wrong and how much it would cost to repair. A complete used engine would be my preference to trying to repair an old turbo engine with major damage. You can often get a cascade of failures with old engines - one part breaks and that pushes other old worn parts too far and they fail too.
Actually, if it has a variable geometry turbo, that may have failed and be blocking the inlet so the engine just can't get any air.
The variable bit is on the hot side though
The variable bit is on the hot side though
Umm, yeah, bit obvious now that you point that out. Could still be blocking the exhaust side - engine would fire up then choke.
I'd listen to Duncan and mc. They both know what they are talking about.
It is almost impossible to diagnose these problems from a distance, but something clearly lead the garage to replace the HP pump
I'd never replace a pump on a vehicle that old without a very long conversation with the customer and 100% confirmation that the pump is the issue. Unless the vehicle is a super low mileage example (and in mint condition) I'd probably suggest a complete used engine, assuming I could source a known good one of course.
I stand by my original advice of getting rid. Although you mentioned a warantee - is that one of those third party things that an independent garage will pay for when you buy a used car. Obviously if that is going to cover 100% of costs its worth maxing out. But i'd proceed with caution and get on the phone to them re the claim asap.
I'm heading back from Glasgow on monday. If you wanted I could call in and have a chat with them.
Probably wont actually sort it but I might then be able to advise properly.
Also ref my comment have you spoken to the warranty company
@duncancallum That would be amazing 🙂 Will send you a PM.
Taking it to a Renault dealer for diagnosis would be my advice if the current garage can’t figure out what’s wrong.
The local Renault garage (Dumfries) is apparently fully booked up with a long waiting list.
Although you mentioned a warantee – is that one of those third party things that an independent garage will pay for when you buy a used car.
Exactly - it's with Warrantywise.
The garage won't deal directly with WW. I did speak to them at the time it went in to the garage and they said no problem, it can be done under the emergency procedure which is I pay for it and then WW will pay me back as long as I have all the proper receipts etc.
All I can do is take their word for it and hope for the best really. It covers up to £2k for a single repair. Reading the warranty fine print it does mention that the pumps (and injectors) are covered.
Ok so the latest news is they say the problem is definitely in the fuel line, somewhere between the pump and the injectors.
What's in there between those? Anything complex?
If it gets to the injectors they'll need to be sent away for testing and maybe replaced, they don't know a price for either.
It's cost 1.5k so far.
Frustrating to say the least. I appreciate they can't really estimate the time but I'll have to push for more accurate parts prices before knowing if I should ask them to continue.
I think you need a second opinion on this.
Its starting to sound like the garage has launched the parts canon which usually means they either don't have the correct diagnostic tools (or skills) or they've just got unlucky and failure of one part has cascaded into failure of other parts.
Worst case scenario is that the pump fired bits of swarf into the common rail, that was then driven into the injectors effectively trashing the entire fuel system. If this is the case the garage should have hinted at this before replacing the pump and warned you that it could get expensive and frankly that the vehicle was more than likely scrap.
The common rail is a high pressure reservoir and usually has a pressure sensor fitted and a control valve. Both are critical.
Take Duncan up on his offer.
It sounds like the garage have deferred the issue to you and the aftermarket warranty... But I'm pretty sure if this was a recent purchase and it's gone faulty, you can just refer it back to the dealer under your basic rights. Repair replace or refund.
The risk with the warranty is the garage will just throw parts at it until they hit the claim limit on the policy and then you are stuck.
If it is the fuel rail being blocked that should be a cheap(ish) fix. The rail has a pressure sensor so that should have thrown a code? If the injectors fail then again should be a straight forward code read telling you the one(s) that fail.
On the basis you have £500 left on the warranty it should be fixable for that (if that is the problem) so might as well crack on. But you must have spent more than the car is worth now?