Advice about teenage shoplifting

They cannot circulatw and show the photos of offenders to their staff u less an offender as been convicted.

My understanding, is that they should minimise circulating but can supply to staff that need it for purposes of doing their lawful work. To me pointing out that they suspect certain persons of shoplifting and to watch out for them is a legitimate purpose, but IANAL

Whether they can also supply to other shops for the same purposes - is probably dodgy.

And assumes people are being warned they are being monitored - although that can be a grey area, because if warning that monitoring is in place is likely to prevent the crime then it can be covert....but that's more likely to be staff pilfering for example, the purpose of visible and labelled CCTV is to prevent theft in the first place.

First offence?

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Daughter says she forgot she had items and they were in her hand.

Bollocks she did.

She was stopped before leaving the store.

She wasn't shoplifting then. For all the store knows she was about to go "ooh!" and go back to pay.

I mean, bollocks she was, but they can't prove to the contrary.

2. Are they allowed to take a photograph of a minor without parental permission

Yes. There's security cameras all over the place, in public and private. I have a Ring video doorbell. You don't have a right not to be recorded except in certain protected locations.

and then store and circulate that photograph in a database.

Well, then we're into the realms of GDPR. Would you suppose that a supermarket has a legitimate interest in processing data on suspected shoplifters?

I am keen to clear it up as daughter has never been in any kind of trouble before

Don't you remember how puberty works?

Honestly, if I were you I'd be more cross about the lying.

My daughter claims she had the items in her hand in plain sight.

There's an easy way to verify that if they have CCTV footage.

I could be wrong don’t think a big multinational will let you near the CCTV without the proper GDPR request. We don’t allow parents to rock up and show them all our camera angles/blind spots etc (very useful info for shoplifters!).

Sure, but, if the store is arguing "we have proof" then it's on them to either demonstrate that proof or bugger off. Otherwise we're then into the realms of harassment.

Sounds like it's over now, so i wouldn't worry about the Primark element, the photo will just be them making a song and dance to put some scare tactics on for a young girl, retail loss/shrinkage is a big issue, most retail shops have an acceptable level of loss through theft, so you can only imagine how many shoplifters they deal with, if they, or the shop/centre security haven't done anything, then it's over, they don't want to waste time and effort on it, so i'd say you might want to think the same way.

As for what to do, she's a teenager now and there'll be a lot more areas to fight over in the coming years, all you and your wife can do is monitor and support where required, good luck with whatever route you guys go down, if she was with friends, is there parents you can chat to as well, maybe get a bit more of a group monitoring thing going?

Bollocks she did.

There is possibly a more tactful way of making that point.

I understand and sympathise with the disappointment that the OP clearly feels, but I guess the reality is that the staff at Primark are unlikely to want to alienate Primark customers with false accusations.

It makes no business sense and the fact that they obviously don't want to pursue it any further suggests no malice or vindictiveness in their actions.

There is possibly a more tactful way of making that point.

I find that 'tact' is just an excuse to fanny about with florid language rather than getting to the point. (-:

You are correct of course, but it would be naive in the extreme to accept "oh, I forgot" as an excuse and all joking aside if I were the parent I'd be livid that my kid thought that would fly. I have many and varied character flaws but "daft" is not one of them.

13-year old girl. Full of hormones, out with her peers, one of them dares her to stick a pair of knickers in her pocket because "they all do it," it's practically a rite of passage. Next is you / the store frightens them all to death and they never do it again, it's not the Krays origin story.

OP gas gone a little quiet. I know they were after legal advice, but beyond the nitpickers the bulk of the advice as been around how you as a parent should approach your daughter's narrative. Maybe the thread did not take quite the direction they envisaged.

what is your daughter’s perception of your opinion of the incident?

I wanted to post this but a combination of not knowing how to phrase it, and not being a parent stopped me!

There would be nothing worse than coming out of this with her thinking she's got away with it with a gullible parent who will bail her out in future, so perhaps there should be repercussions for 'forgetting', as this removes the arguement over whether it was intentional.

Sure, but, if the store is arguing “we have proof” then it’s on them to either demonstrate that proof or bugger off. Otherwise we’re then into the realms of harassment.

Would it not be private property where access can be denied regardless of proof?

And having staff witnesses probably counts as sufficient evidence to justify it anyway?

Having something in your hand and wandering out is possible. I once picked up 2 CDs to buy in HMV then wandered around browsing other stuff before leaving. I was most of the way home before I realised. I did go back very sheepishly and pay.

^ was about to post similar. Shops have right to refuse entry, and (AFAIK) as long as it's not for protected characteristics that's their choice. If they have 'evidence' (inverted commas because we're not talking about court sized evidence, just enough for them) that someone is nicking stuff then I'm perfectly OK with them using that to advise staff that these people are to be watched or barred entry. Don't nick stuff, then you have nothing to worry about.

It's not some deep state initiative in which future crims are being extensively profiled. It's some security guard that has seen what looks close enough to them to challenge the kid, get some 'ooh I forgot' cock and bull, has prevented the loss for their employer and has dealt with it sensibly to avoid further repercussions and done the kid a favour.

Stepping back a bit, and to the barrack room lawyers - it sounds like in your preferred series of events the kid would have been allowed to leave the shop (despite at least one, even two people with proper knowledge of the law saying that doesn't have to happen, although granted it makes it easier to prove). Then lawfully detained, police called, and CCTV evidence provided. Leading to a 'conviction' (again, probably not in court but dealt with as a police prosecution by post) and a record that'll screw the kid's prospects up.

On balance, as a parent, would I prefer a 'likelihood says, your kid was nicking, got caught and is now banned from my shop, no further questions and goodbye' or full on proceedings. Absolutely the first with the life lesson being 1/ don't break the law; 2/ to avoid being accused of breaking the law don't do stuff that looks like breaking the law.

As frequently happens, theotherjonv sums it up neatly and pragmatically.

Thief!

Odd to put things in your pocket whilst in the shop.

Likely the first time she's been caught. Hopefully it will be a wake up up call and it'll be the last time.

Whats all this going to court shit? When I got caught shop lifting as a kid I just got a police caution and a massive bollicking from my mum and dad. This was 30 odd years ago, so maybe they don't do that any more. Seems a bit much going to court for minor shoplifting though...

massive bollicking from my mum and da

That's probably what the shop are hoping for in this case.

As it happens, i often get a custard tart in lidl and put it in my pocket

Primark? Sorry, but possibly the OP's daughter needs some better guidance about risk:reward and picking higher value targets 😉 .

I think you need a frank and honest discussion with your daughter. And it sounds like the shop has been reasonable. They see this behaviour daily, but this is the first time for yourself. What are the odds? How many times do you think that they have heard the same "explanation"? I took my son back to apologise and pay (he wasn't caught except by me). Within the last 10 years. It comes with the job of being a parent.

Even if they were in her hand, if she was leaving without paying it’s shoplifting.

Actually it isnt. From personal experience i had the same thing happen. Spent a fair bit of time wandering, browsing and went to walk out, completely forgot I was holding a CD.

Stopped right at the door by security, led to back room, cops called.

Cops asked security if the cd was concealed or if i was holding it, they + I said i was holding it, i insisted I'd just forgotten. Cops then told security to let me go.

From what I remember from the conversation between the police and security, they said something about when it goes to court if it wasn't concealed, it was a simple error and they couldn't prove i had intended to steal anything and the court would have dismissed the charge.So the whole thing would have been a waste of the courts time.

As you were buying a cd I'm going to imagine that was decades ago ;-), the link earlier suggests police can now offer a summary prosecution.

Also sounds like police exercised discretion as opposed to it not technically still being shoplifting. Not all offences are prosecuted.

As frequently happens, theotherjonv sums it up neatly and pragmatically.

Agreed. For clarity, I'm not suggesting that she should be sent down for ten years' hard labour. Rather, she needs to understand that she's in the shit and that her explanation (no matter how bogus or genuine it might be) is no excuse.

From personal experience i had the same thing happen. Spent a fair bit of time wandering, browsing and went to walk out, completely forgot I was holding a CD.

It's possible, sure. But it's surely vanishingly unlikely.

Stopped right at the door by security, led to back room, cops called.

I've often wondered what would happen if you just said "no" when stopped by store security. What powers do they actually have? Are they legally allowed to detain you?

I’ve often wondered what would happen if you just said “no” when stopped by store security. What powers do they actually have? Are they legally allowed to detain you?

Just remembered years ago I was taken back to a shop by my Dad to return something he thought I'd stolen!

He saw I had a new sheath knife (mid 80s in the country) and didn't believe I'd had the money to buy it (I did from little gardening jobs). Man I was angry telling him I'd bought it, but I had the last laugh when the shop said I'd paid for it 🤣

Just remembered years ago I was taken back to a shop by my Dad to return something he thought I’d stolen!

He saw I had a new sheath knife (mid 80s in the country) and didn’t believe I’d had the money to buy it (I did from little gardening jobs). Man I was angry telling him I’d bought it, but I had the last laugh when the shop said I’d paid for it 🤣

If ever there was a story of parenting past that does not run true today! 🙂

Child found with knife and the issue is did they pay for it, not that it's a sodding big knife! Them were the days!

I know! I even bought a pen knife on a school trip to Whitby!

Certainly different times.

Hard as it seems, I think the OP needs to take an unbiased view of this. I have two kids, 11 and 12, so might be in a similar situation in the next few years. I'd absolutely go to war for my kids, and they know that, but they also know that I'll come down on them if required.

I doubt Primark or any other store would make these kind of accusations lightly so my first response would be to get the facts lined up and walk through it all with my son (guilty until proven innocent!). Anything remotely like BS would be called out (I forgot I had it in my hand), and assuming the story fell apart we'd then have a chat about actions and consequences before deciding a punishment.

This kind of thing sets the tone for the future, in terms of both their behaviour and their perception of you as a parent. Teenage years are pretty formative so important to find the right balance. I don't envy you OP.

Its not shoplifting if youre still in the shop.
Dont expect the judge to stop sentencing you because of that, though

Bloody hell, what a bunch of cynics! Teenager automatically a thief and store 'security' assumed to be right 100% of the time!! There's more DM readers here than I thought!

Why is it so hard to believe that the shop got it wrong and that the items were in the teenagers hands?! Not all teenagers steal and not all shop security staff are that good!

This may be a hang up from Virgin records in Oxford Street when I was grabbed by a thicko security staff member and dragged (even at that age I didn't go quietly!) into the manager's office. Had to empty pockets and bags and show receipts for stuff I'd just paid for!! Manager just told me to get out rather than apologising. Only dragging my parents back into the shop got any resolution (£25 to spend in store seemed like Christmas back in those days). Security excuse..."he was picking games (tapes back in those days) off the shelf and reading the labels" - that was his reason for grabbing me!

being a parent to teenage kids makes you cynical. They all lie, no matter what you'd like to believe.

Its not shoplifting if youre still in the shop.

Depends, as I said before there are at least a couple on here for whom this is their daily business and probably know more than the rest of us put together who disagree, at least technically. Still clearly browsing deep in the shop, no it's not theft. Item in pocket and furtively heading for the exit, probably is. Items in a foil lined anti-RFID bag / with a tag remover on their person.... of course letting them leave and then apprehending them outside is more clear cut.

Nick something valuable next time if you're going on the rob.

a shop's security team doesn't just happen to spot someone leaving the store with something in their hand/pocket, as there's far too many people leaving to do that - also chances of them getting from the cctv desk to the front in time is basically zero. They'll spot shifty behavior (and for a first/second time teenager, thats dead easy to spot) around where the items were on the shelf and follow that person to the front. My strong suspicion is the daughter was acting shifty, then nicked something (legally? perhaps not but the store aren't going to press charges for a couple of bracelets so what do they care) and just want the embarassment of parents/bollocking of kids to occur as its the most likely way to succeed.

To add to this ^ I’m also assuming they stopped her just as she was inches from leaving. However this hasn’t been made clear

To add to this ^ I’m also assuming they stopped her just as she was inches from leaving. However this hasn’t been made clear

Teenagers often display levels of pedantry that would be envied in this place. The shop said she was leaving when detained, daughter said she was still in the store - so maybe one step from the door. Shop said items in her pockets, daughter says in her hands - were her hands in her pockets or under her coat?

Its not shoplifting if you're still in the shop.

It can be if you can prove the intention not to pay. I worked in retail management for years and we were taught you must observe the selection, concealment and intention not to pay before you stop someone.

So drug user selecting huge chunk of beef and stuffing in down his trousers was stopped before he left the store and later arrested by police. He had no method of payment on him and was clearly making a B line for the exit.

IMO this case would be about the concealment and intention not to pay. Did the child hide the item and intend not to pay. All a bit academic now.

Be good…

or be good at it.

You can safely ignore any letters about "Retail Loss Prevention" etc.
They tried it on in court in 2012 and the magistrate found for the defendants, not for DWF.
They haven't (as far as is known) been back to the courts.

so what happened in the end, did you get the CCTV and get it cleared up, or what?

Bet Primark don’t get shoplifters as polite as ours.

Slight thread hijack. I knew a drug user a few years ago, real poor soul, who would only steal from the reduced section of Asda. She thought it was limiting the harm, often thought that in her position I would head down to Waitrose, better hung for a Duchy original organic grass fed lamb!