Hi, can anyone shed some light on the legal side of things here please
Called to pick up 13yr old daughter from Primark as she was detained for shoplifting. Store say she had items in her pockets when leaving the store. Daughter says she forgot she had items and they were in her hand. She was stopped before leaving the store. The store did not contact police but did take her photograph before I got there and will circulate to all stores in town.
1. I will ask for CCTV and if the item are clearly in her hand when leaving then I feel it's a genuine mistake and the store have over reacted.
2. Are they allowed to take a photograph of a minor without parental permission and then store and circulate that photograph in a database.
Thanks in advance. I am keen to clear it up as daughter has never been in any kind of trouble before and it would be totally out of character.
If it was before she left there is no case to answer as she hasn’t taken anything from the store.
Best course of action for the store would’ve been a request to pay for them. Obv a learning experience for yr daughter and store staff!
cctv is one thing, but detaining and taking photo of a minor is not within shop security remit.
Even if they were in her hand, if she was leaving without paying it's shoplifting. I'm not sure of the legal position but having her image circulated is a better outcome than a conviction for theft. Teenagers shoplift, not all of them but It's extremely common. Hard for a parent to accept I know. Fortunately for most it's a temporary phase. I am not saying your daughter did it deliberately, but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility in your position.
Don't know about 2 but I do know from previous discussions that taking images to assist with a potential prosecution is lawful. Taking images in a public place too, although whether that is subject to data protection I don't know. I do know that there are frequently pictures of 'do you recognise this man' type on police appeals.
For 1/ teenagers get egged on to do all sorts of things they shouldn't by peers. I'd be looking to 4F it first, and then if the evidence is there whether mistake or not I'd be looking to try to de-escalate it rather than the other way round. You say it's out of character, etc., but they don't know that and if you try and fight fire with fire are you risking them saying 'f you then.... and the evidence sounds like it'll back them up, that she was taking items out of the shop without paying for them.
Don't be that enabling parent that automatically defends their kids.
items in pockets? Probably not a very credible excuse especially if they were high value or the kind of thing you don't normally put in your pocket. They said she was heading for the exit too.
IIRC there is no right per se to not be photographed.
A mate of mine got caught shoplifting as a kid and he never did it again because he got in a lot of trouble with his parents. It was just a kind of teen phase and he's quite respectable now 😀
One months withdrawl of pudding priviledge.
We gave the cops a video of a lady putting a bracelet in her pocket. They didn’t proceed as they “couldn’t see a crime being committed”.
You need to have physically left the premises for it to be shoplifting, even if you’re past the till and heading for the door.
Re cctv then it’s private property so they can essentially do what they want (may need to warn you), not sure about its admissibility in court, though.
One months withdrawl of pudding priviledge.
I’d just like to point out that this is 10 years old. 10 years!
You need to have physically left the premises for it to be shoplifting, even if you’re past the till and heading for the door.
Good legal advice but bad parenting advice; the obvious implication being that she did nothing wrong.
If they have CCTV they should have a notice saying something like "images are being captured for the purpose of crime prevention" - I expect that will also cover taking photos.
You need to have physically left the premises for it to be shoplifting
That's what I thought but a bit googling suggests if there is sufficient evidence that the subject was intending to steal, such as concealing items, then it's the same thing. That's why I am questioning it. My daughter claims she had the items in her hand in plain sight.
Might be worth asking why they stopped her, if the stuff really was in pockets then they had no doubt clocked her earlier, either way she must have been doing something that caught their attention.
I’d just like to point out that this is 10 years old. 10 years!
😄😄😄😄😄
As the dad of a daughter in a similar situation and with 'previous' good character I'm afraid I'd just accept that for what ever dumb/egged-on reason she did it and be glad the police weren't called. Hopefully it will be enough to stop any more happening. A good discussion/I'm really disappointed etc and move on.
Our little angels aren't always angels especially with 'mates' or just as daft kids. And I know my parents would be shocked at some of the stuff this daft lad got up to!
In my daughter's case she'd been 'pressured' into getting something to show lasses at school who'd been bullying her to some small degree. It was a lips stick and it was in her hand.
I was out getting stuff for her birthday party when I got a call from the police. I actually thought it was a wind up at first, but no. They'd taken her in, belts off, no shoes laces and all that and said she just needed to admit it and say sorry or it'd be court. After a lot of childish obvious BS and some good laying it on heavy by the police it all came out. Never had and issue after that, but the bloody party was cancelled lol!!!
I may sound harsh.
In her hand/in her pocket, making to leave the store and stopped just inside/outside the door, not making any attempt to pay (my guess is make up items?). sounds like she was at it and was caught, now trying to deflect away from what she did. Maybe not her first time either but they always say it is when caught. Honest people don't usually forget to pay. As mentioned above please don't enable her actions. Lots of people nit picking the finer details above.
However, taking a minors picture for circulation....that's not on either.
I hope its a valuable lesson learnt for your daughter and not something for her to laugh about with her friends later.
I work in retail and TBH the number of kids that come in robbing pi$$es me off. They know the police are not interested or take action so carry on. I had to deal with 2 shoplifters again today.
Edit. look up S.C.O.N.E. I have seen apprehensions that occurred at the door (inside) that were successfully prosecuted. I have seen people walk out with items in plain site be apprehended and charged. As I said don't nit pick.
As for the reference ^^^ to items of high value - the alleged offence took place in Primark!
I believe the charge is theft, so can only be applied if you leave the premises. In shops, stuff is placed all over so theft only occurs if you move the goods beyond a boundary, ie store exit.
What you’re thinking of is ‘going equipped’ (to steal). So, if she had a card skimmer or device for removing tags, that would be chargeable.
They would need to prove that she intended to steal (pre-meditation).
I’d just like to point out that this is 10 years old. 10 years!
I think you’ll find it’s timeless 😀
I'm with Andy4D; it's so stupidly common that for it to be the truth would be hard to believe.
Doesn't matter whether it's worth one quid or a hundred.
Like I said, first find the ****ing facts. I wouldn't believe her story until I'd seen the CCTV that proves it either way I'm afraid, and I'd say the same about my kids, they all lie.
As it happens, i often get a custard tart in lidl and put it in my pocket cos i don’t want it to get squashed in the basket. I have no intention of stealing it , they’re 50p and i earn a good wage.
Nobody is so pious as to be blameless.
Big picture......you can twist and turn about if the shop did the right thing as much as you like but it's not really that important or relevant. They are not pressing charges - it ends here.
The more important bit......what is your daughter's perception of your opinion of the incident? Does she think the jury is out, that you have just taken her side of the story or you are on the shops side? I'd caution you not to be be that parent and just take your kids word for it and jump to her defence by default. I've seen too many good kids ruined by these sort of parents. Long and the short of it is that shops don't waste their time for no reason. They also deal with this stuff all the time. And it is not in their interests to put off a potential shopper for life. Sadly, I'd say there is more chance than not that your daughter is guilty. And if that is the case the worst thing you can do as a parent is not make sure this turns into a real life lesson opportunity. If she is guilty she needs to appreciate that she has had a close call. Dad having her back come what may will really not help long term. She needs to be working really hard to persuade you of her innocence. I'd be approaching the store as a concerned parent, without her knowledge, wanting to see the cctv as a concerned parent wanting proof to help your daughter to learn from her mistakes (rather than questioning their professionalism). And if she still brass necks it then she needs to learn the lesson of fessing up to having done wrong and to take the consequence. It's such a crucial life skill. On the flip side if the cctv is not convincing it'll help you to believe her.
I could be wrong don't think a big multinational will let you near the CCTV without the proper GDPR request. We don’t allow parents to rock up and show them all our camera angles/blind spots etc (very useful info for shoplifters!). As said above we don’t tend to stop people for the $hits and giggles because we know the consequences of a false stop and have lots of other things to be doing to make a living rather than deal with this. We also call the police for every minor detained for this very reason, the number of parents that try to blame us when it was their kid in the wrong is incredible. You try and do the right thing and let them off with a warning/no police etc and next thing the parents are in saying xyz! I am fed up trying to be the nice guy and it biting me in the arse so it’s the police every time for me, you are lucky if they didn’t.
Innocent until proven guilty. Lets say she had no intent to steal but is labelled a shoplifter. What then?
You need to have physically left the premises for it to be shoplifting
You don’t.
Innocent until proven guilty. Lets say she had no intent to steal but is labelled a shoplifter. What then?
First find the ****ing facts
Ok, i’ll rephrase that. Either leave without paying, in which case it’s fairly cut n dried theft. Or, the onus is on the crown to prove intent or going equipped if she is still on the premises but not paid.
Innocent until proven guilty. Lets say she had no intent to steal but is labelled a shoplifter. What then?
All very well, do you really want her/the parents to go to court to find out? She may well be officially labelled as one then.
At the moment she's probably had a lucky break if she was, or realised she needs to make sure she doesn't make the same error again.
Not strictly true that you have to leave the premises. It is generally allowed to happen as it more often than not assists in proving the offence of theft, but the actual points to prove are
1. Appropriation
2. Of properrty
3. Belonging to another
4. Dishonestly (putting it in your pocket rather carrying it in your hand)
5. Intention of to permanently deprive
finephilly
Free MemberAs it happens, i often get a custard tart in lidl and put it in my pocket cos i don’t want it to get squashed in the basket. I have no intention of stealing it , they’re 50p and i earn a good wage.
Nobody is so pious as to be blameless
Admit it, you do it for the rush don’t you?!
If she continues to deny it you could try the approach of "your behaviour looks like shoplifting to those who are experienced in spotting shoplifting so needs to change otherwise you'll end up in the same situation again, possibly in a store who prosecute all shoplifters or where the value of goods meets their threshold for prosecution".
You really don't want a criminal conviction as it will affect your life choices / opportunities.
My daughter is 15 and several of the girls in her friendship group shoplift from stores including Primark. Generally cheap tat but still criminal behaviour.
One girl, whose mother is the head of a local primary school, was caught with stuff in her pockets just as she was approaching the exit. Parents involved who supported their child and everything blew over without Police involvement.
They seem to think that their daughter was innocent but my daughter says that this girl had been stealing for several months before being caught.
It does seem to be driven by peer pressure and hopefully will cease once the first member of any group is caught.
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finephilly
Free MemberOk, i’ll rephrase that. Either leave without paying, in which case it’s fairly cut n dried theft. Or, the onus is on the crown to prove intent or going equipped if she is still on the premises but not paid.
The crown? They aren’t pressing charges. She will be labelled as a shoplifter within the realm of Primark and it doesn’t even sound like they’ve banned her, she’ll just be watched like a hawk
I was at the self-scan checkout at Sainsbury's the other day, when they wanted to check my bag and re-scan some items. After they'd done I just walked out of the shop without paying!! I didn't realise until later, and went back and paid. It reminded me of a time I'd someone'd been nabbed for shoplifting in Woolworth's - as described above, teenager egged on by mates. No police but it gave methem a scare I remember a lot of years later!!
Woolworths brings back memories of my crime-ridden boyhood days! I found a bouncy ball on the floor in the Woolworths in Ponterdawe when I was about 10. Pocketed it only for my Dad to find out, take me straight back to the store in question, ask to speak to the manager and then held me in front of him and said ‘my son has something to tell you’.
First and last time I ever tried anything like that…
Yea, i gotta get my kicks somehow. Actually stopped someone shoplifting once and it turned out to be a regional manager training some staff, whoops.
Anyhow it’s always the crown who prosecutes, as we are all (uk) subjects of the queen.
I was looking at this for info:
Procurator Fiscal prosecutes in Scotland.
Anyhow it’s always the crown who prosecutes, as we are all (uk) subjects of the queen.
Erm, no.
it’s always the crown who prosecutes
Generally, but from the OP seems like there is no intent to prosecute, "The store did not contact police". The innocent until proven guilty and 'crown vs' bits become irrelevant in that case. A shop is private property and they can exclude people who they suspect may have tried to rob them in the past if they want.
Seems like the shop is not escalating any more than necessary hence why I suggest that the OP doesn't either. Seems 'possible' that there was intent and even if there wasn't and it was a genuine error then it was a stupid one to learn from.
They cannot circulatw and show the photos of offenders to their staff u less an offender as been convicted.
Againat Data protecrion to do tbis for any age.
What part of GDPR?
In my opinion:
Your daughter was stealing.
& I am 50/50 whether the shop has any intention of circulating the picture, maybe they are just trying to scare her?
^^my take is GDPR states that video surveillance footage that can identify an individual qualifies as personal data and any person who’s image is recorded on cctv has a right to request a copy of their data.
