[Closed] Advanced driving courses

COUGAR=AWESUM

http://www.paulswift.com/experiences/stunt-driving-experiences/

I did IAMS for motorbike, learnt a lot but didnt really fit in with the petrolhead crowd.

I used to do displays with Paul Swift when he was about five.

One of the reasons I stopped (apart from being in another country) was watching the spectators leaving the car parks after events and realising I was contributing to people driving like dicks on the public roads.

Anything that gives people the idea they are better drivers is bad idea IMO. Being a better driver just means slowing down and paying attention.

I did a course through work a couple of years ago - I think it was through Applied Driving Techniques and I met the instructor in Warrington somewhere. We then drove to Cumbria (where he swapped and came back with a colleague). Really good course, learnt a lot and changed the way I drive. I can dig out some more details if you're interested... I think it was about £300 and I'd be tempted to put any of my off-spring through similar course once they pass their tests!

Doing an observed drive with the IAM first is a good idea, the observer can really make or break it.

I did it after passing my test, the observers fitted the typical flat cap stereotype. Most of the observation, anticipation etc is all great. Some of the rules can be quite annoying, eg block shifting, hand position etc.

"performance driving" is great fun, on a track. Yes learning to drift can save you, but 99% of the time the situation could have been avoided in the first place.

Being a better driver just means slowing down and paying attention.

Courtesy to other road users not included? Hmm

(sorry cougs! he started it!)

Anything that gives people the idea they are better drivers is bad idea IMO. Being a better driver just means slowing down and paying attention.

And the purpose of the courses is how to pay attention, things to looks for etc. When to stop when to go.

IAM very dependent on your local group. I didn't get on with one crowd but did get on with another.

I found RoSPA a higher standard, but then my experiences are years old; been over three since I've driven.

I used to do displays with Paul Swift when he was about five.

Surprised he could reach the pedals of the Montego. 😉

I've driven with Terry Grant.

I did it after passing my test, the observers fitted the typical flat cap stereotype.

The first time I looked into it, donkeys' years ago, I got the impression that it was a bit of an Old Boys' Club.  I've a vague memory that once passed you were then expected to take part in events or train others or some such.  I think that was the IAM.  But it was a quarter of a century ago so I may have made all that up. (-:

Doing an observed drive with the IAM first is a good idea, the observer can really make or break it.

I used to lift share with an IAM observer. He enjoyed driving fast, legally. The difference was he was incredibly diligent, observant and respectful, and knew his highway code. His car was also always in good condition. He wasn't a bully or general ****. It helped he was also trained by the local police/ambulance driver trainer.

<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">The drive to work was often a good learning experience. My experience is most of it is common sense when you think about it, but it often takes someone to point it out to you.</span>

Maybe Read roadcraft see how you get on with it, a lot with cars and normal driving is commonsense, increase observation, raise your eyeline, two second rule etc and you’re not going to be using masses of positional work in real life.  Not done anything with IAM, was always under the impression that they’re not that advanced in reality

rospa were good.

i would however go wit the iam as it doesn't have an expiration date and can be used against your insurance.

I went through the same decision as the OP so I started going along to my local IAM group on Sunday mornings. After only a couple of sessions they said I could do a dummy test so off I went, with the examiner writing notes on a pad. After five minutes he told me to stop. He explained that my driving was excellent, my technique and control perfect but that I would never pass the IAM test because I wasn't driving to "the system", which is where you go through a set sequence of actions every time you encounter a hazard, entering and leaving the sequence as necessary.

At that point I lost interest and stopped going.

If the system is the same as on a motorbike its actually very very good and entirely sensible and makes you a better rider.

He enjoyed driving fast, legally

Never drove on the raod then? I drove in Britain for a week recently and found that every flow of traffic I was in was at about the legal limit + speedo error or above. How do you drive "fast" on a presumably busy commute without constnatly overtaking, speeding and being anti-social which aren't on the IAM agenda. You live in the SE don't you Pimp? Being with a good driver should feel slow. Nothing happens in a hurry, stopping distances are more than 2 seconds - many more if you have no intentioon of overtaking, lines give good visibility so there are no surprises. No hard braking or accelerating. You're more likely to fall asleep than get the impression of going fast.

Who would ever considr not being courteous on the road,  DezB? It's as automatic as saying thank you when some holds a door for you isn't it?

I found RoSPA a higher standard

a higher standard of driving, or a higher standard of instruction?

obvious troll is obvious.......

I followed a chap doing 35mph in a 60 the other day. He wasn't driving fast or overtaking, so he must have been a brilliant driver yeah?

Never drove on the raod then? I drove in Britain for a week recently and found that every flow of traffic I was in was at about the legal limit + speedo error or above. How do you drive “fast” on a presumably busy commute without constnatly overtaking, speeding and being anti-social which aren’t on the IAM agenda. You live in the SE don’t you Pimp? Being with a good driver should feel slow. Nothing happens in a hurry, stopping distances are more than 2 seconds – many more if you have no intentioon of overtaking, lines give good visibility so there are no surprises. No hard braking or accelerating. You’re more likely to fall asleep than get the impression of going fast.

Thanks for the anecdotal story and assumptions, but I'm not entirely sure what you're asking/telling me.

Edukator has smooth and calm mixed up with slow.

Sounds like he was drivng within his ability, Maxtorque, which is one of the qualities of a "brilliant" driver.

You on the other hand feel the need to brag about you imagined abilities (for which you provide no evidence)  while pouring scorn on those that are happy to drive within their comfort zone which may be a little slower than the given speed limit.

Edit: smooth calm and slow, Drac. Slow is the opposite of fast. If it feels fast either to yourself or a passenger you're doing it wrong. And if we're using them as coparatives, faster than the rest of the traffic is asking for trouble however talented you are - that's why you have flashing lights and a siren so people know what to expect and give you the necessary space.

All very interesting, but not what I asked.  If you want a squabble, go start another thread.

that’s why you have flashing lights and a siren so people know what to expect and give you the necessary space.

We don’t use them all the time Edukator. Fast just isn’t about the actual speed though is it. People who are passengers say “oooh we got here fast” but funnily enough no blue lights or excessive speed. You’re kind of right with what you saying but slow isn’t the word you’re looking for.

Calm and Controlled manner if I remember my roadcraft correctly.

Anyway yeah look at one Cougar they will help with observations, road positioning and vehicle control.

Maxtorque, Edukator, will you two just get a room already? So much pent up frustration... it’ll be fireworks!

– that’s why you have flashing lights and a siren so people know what to expect and give you the necessary

The majority of my advanced courses, and the bike course in its entirety, was driving without blues and twos, making progress, faster than the other traffic and in a covert manner. Smooth instead of slow would make more sense.

Maxtorque pops up on these drivng threads and promotes fast driving. He's toned it down over the years but is stil very much in the "making progress" mould. I find that objectionable on a forum on which those of us who actually ride bikes have to suffer the dangerous behaviour of "car enthusiasts" on the public road network. So you'll have to ban me to stop countering Maxtorque, Cougar.

He regularly claims people doing (for example 35mph in a 60) are bad drivers. He takes an imaginary example (I didn't find a singel person doiing 25mph under the speed limit in the UK in a week) to demonise slower drivers when the slower drivers he's refering to are really just the mass of good drivers going about their business whilst driving withoin their limits. Because most drivers are neither slow nor fast and really quite good at what they're doing. They're in their confort zone, they're just going wherever they're going without worrying much about what they're doing. They're on auto, sticking to roughly what the speed limit sign says, driving in a way they've learned works for them without getting them into trouble or upsetting anyone. That's the vast majority of people on the roads.

If IAM appeals then do it, Cougar. They claim it makes people safer and if done in the spirit on being safer rather than "brilliant" it can't do you any harm. You started a thread that pops up regularly (giving Maxtorque the opportunity ot troll cyclists and yes I pick up the gauntlet), a  forum search will bring up plenty of IAM threads, you started this one, you knew what to expect, you knew who the contributors would be.

So you’ll have to ban me to stop countering Maxtorque, Cougar.

YAY!

So you’ll have to ban me to stop countering Maxtorque, Cougar.

I accept those terms.  You were the one who started it in the first place. (-:

Seriously, go start another thread, or I'll abuse my privs and delete all the waffle.

I used to lift share with an IAM observer. He enjoyed driving fast, legally. The difference was he was incredibly diligent, observant and respectful, and knew his highway code. His car was also always in good condition. He wasn’t a bully or general ****. It helped he was also trained by the local police/ambulance driver trainer.

I had some training (paid for through work) from an ex-police driving instructor. It wasn't at all what I thought it was going to be. It was, as you say, about maintaining a high (legal) pace through smooth driving, observation, car position and handling. It has stuck with me.

It was, as you say, about maintaining a high (legal) pace through smooth driving, observation, car position and handling.

Exactly that and what Kilo said.

I'd be happier with the idea that good training means people can drive faster safely if there was any basis for it. The IAM make claims but there are no statistics to back them up and their drivers fall into a demographic that has a lower accident rate anyhow. The idea that intensive training makes police drivers safer and fast isn't the case, and there are statistics on that:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/319294/deaths-during-or-following-police-contact-police-pursuit-in-england-and-wales/

The skills Drac and the AIM encourage (rightly so) have theri limits. Just a small increase in speed increases your stopping distance and distance to react and cancels any marginal gain you might have from being a half meter to the left or right or on an better line. I do have experince of this, a lot, trying to find fractions of seconds. If you think any of the techniques you learn make it safe to go noticeably faster you're kidding yourself.

Sigh!

You’re arguing with yourself. Cougar isn’t wanting to drive under blue light conditions, position is not just lateral.

Move along to your own thread Edukator.

I think the formerly reformed troll has shown that he has little understanding of advanced driver training in the UK

If you think any of the techniques you learn make it safe to go noticeably faster you’re kidding yourself.

I want to ensure that I'm driving to the best of my ability and hopefully have lower insurance as a side-effect.

Now, [color=red]stop trying to derail the thread[/color] FFS.

Cougar, I am IAM trained and more. I will PM you.

Nicely, thank you.

Back to the topic in hand, has the OP considered a skid-pan session?

First time I had a car sideways on a road it scared the **** out of me, just luck that I got away with it. In Finland you aren't allowed out for your first lesson on the road until you've been on a skid pan, very sensible.

Had a free session one day when the car park at Inners was just sheet ice and I was the only one there, back in the day before wooden things appeared in it and it was just one big uninterrupted space.<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">Now much more confident I can rescue a big slide, touch wood only had to do it twice apart from the above in 16yrs of driving. Former girlfriend had a proper lesson on one and really rated it. Should treat myself to a go on one really, could probably still learn something.</span>

http://www.reglocal.com/  

Contact this chap.

has the OP considered a skid-pan session?

Thanks to my hooligan youth, I think I'm pretty confident in a skid.  A refresher might not be a bad idea though.

Contact this chap.

Ah! Yes, thanks for that, I remember that cropping up on a previous thread and had forgotten.

Recommend you call and chat to these

http://www.high-performance-course.com

Glad to see this thread is moving along.

Skid pad is a good call some may do that as part of the course.

I did a motorbike specific one run my Cambridgeshire Police Motorbike cops. Was most excellent, mainly lecture based with loads of video examples and then a supervised ride 1 on 1 with a police rider where'd you ride a few miles, stop for feedback and the continue. I could tell the minute I made a mistake as if the Police bike wasn't right behind me, he'd decided my manoeuvre  wasn't correct e.g. a poorly judged over take. He was absolutely fine with speeding during over takes as long as you rolled back to the speed limit once back in your lane - in fact he insisted on it as it's safest to minimise time on the wrong side of the road....

The speeding to "safely overtake" is up for debate. I'm quite happy with people doing it on bikes because if anything goes wrong they are more likely to hurt themselves than anyone else (suicide is ok, murder isn't). But in a car you're going faster than the law deems safe (and faster than other road users expect you to be going) on the wrong side of the road with no escape lane and anyone pulling out from an entrance on the right is going to look the wrong way. I live in an area with roads that encourage overtaking and the death rate is dreadful on them.

Piston heads do it quite well and surprisingly reasonably for them:

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=745955

And back to thread diversion

If I’m considering an overtake, one of the things I would be looking for is sideroads/fields etc, for exactly that reason edukator.

but if I decide it’s safe then i will do all i can to minimise the time on the wrong side of the road, within reason, im not gonna do 80 or anything mad.

i do regular retraining as part of my job via the driver CPC courses, and there’s always something to be taken away from the course, whether it’s a classroom or practical day.

I’ve seen the consequences of excessive speed/inattentive driving on many occasions, so I rarely speed, i have done when i was younger but tbh it doesn’t really save any time compared to using an iam or rospa type system where observation is the main focus.

i regularly get passengers saying ‘ooh we’ve got here really quickly’

but they never ever complain that we’ve gone too fast*

*except for the time when someone complained to my manager that I’d driven from Edinburgh to Glasgow at ‘a constant 100mph!!’

(Bus speedo has the outer ring in kmh, eu speed limiter is 100kmh)

anyway OP, if you feel like you would enjoy IAM or Rospa or a skid pan, then go do it, you will have a great day and the additional skills may just save your or someone else’s life. Win win i say.

Appreciate this is for motorbikes, but it's relevant nonetheless

I upgraded my motorbike and immediately felt like I didn't have enough confidence or ability to use it properly on the road. I decided to do something about it and signed up for my IAM. My local group wasn't too bad and my observer was excellent. Normal bloke, interesting motorcycling background and someone who wanted to have fun. Long story short I passed my test and get good insurance premiums (relatively), but I'm also more confident and capable. i can read the road better, I feel like I have more time, I learnt the importance of good vision etc. That was 8 years ago

Most of the skills transfer into driving or cycling, but it was definitely worth it. Wasn't particularly expensive either.

Being a better driver just means slowing down and paying attention.

Please don't encourage the grey hair brigade to drive any slower than they already do.

Footnote: it's fashionable to deride older folk but there are a couple of things the deriders need to bear in mind:

1 - Older folk are wiser.

2 - As you age you slow down, it's Nature's way of protecting you from deteriorating senses and mobility.

3 - You will be old one day.

4 - older folk have fewer accidents, which is why insurance premiums are lower.

word

larry lamb - the speed limit is a guide not a target.

Yes I am one of those grey haired brigade who drive to the speed limit.

As a person who doesn't think they're a good driver, I asked an IAM instructor about having someone sit in with me (I think its about £45). He said it's usually the people who think they aren't that good on the roads who are better drivers than then one's who think they are. His advice to me was always keep a good distance (the 2 second gap), which luckily I do.

5 - The figures for the number of accidents in older people are obscured as the number of licence holders to those still driving doesn’t show the actual figures.

6 - We’re derailing.

So, who is going to admit to any driving faults?

(One of) mine is taking familiar bends too quickly. I do catch myself doing it and give myself a stern reminder sometimes.

I’m perfect.

Being a good driver is nothing to do with the actual mechanics of driving the car. It’s all to do with making good decisions. I did a few sessions with IAM a few years ago, never followed it through but their instruction was 100% about continual risk analysis and decision making. Sure he option was there to go on skid pans and things like that, but the emphasis was definately on making better decisions.

any course that focuses on the mechanics of driving the car, especially fast, is nothing to do with being a better driver on the roads.

i’m all For people tak Ng drivingbcourses. Passing your test at 17 then receiving zero further tuition or learning for the rest of your life is bonkers.

taking familiar bends too quickly

Me too. I love it.

Was about to mention Reg Local too - check out the advanced driving forum on Pistonheads - he hangs out there a fair bit.

taking familiar bends too quickly

Me too. I love it.

I love it until I realise I'm going faster than the distance I can see to stop in 😉

In Germany where they keep records for all age groups seniors over 75 are the most dangerous people on the road, more dangerous than even young drivers. They cause three out of four accidents they are invovled in . Half the people driving the wrong way down a road are over 65. So when older people voluntarily slow down as an adaption to their diminished faculties I see it as a good thing.

Nach Angaben des Gesamtverbandes der Versicherer (GDV) verursachen Senioren über 75 schon heute drei von vier Unfällen, in die sie verwickelt sind. „Die Quote liegt damit höher als in der Hochrisikogruppe der jungen Fahrer“, sagte GDV-Unfallforscher Siegfried Brockmann.

So when older people voluntarily slow down as an adaption to their diminished faculties I see it as a good thing.

When older people voluntarily slow down as an adaption to their diminished faculties I see it as a good indicator that they should be taking the bus.

And those not living on a bus route and for whom taxis are prohibitvely expensive, Cougar? When they're still quite capable of driving but at slower speeds. How old are your parents? Are you going to tell them to stop driving when they start being more cautious and slow down, or when they don't seem to be comfortable at 60 on a winding B road because some on here hate people not doing the national speed limit - read back and check out previous threads.

It was, as you say, about maintaining a high (legal) pace through smooth driving, observation, car position and handling. It has stuck with me.

That puts it far better than I did, as well as the constant risk assessment mentioned above. FTR he also did skid pan training.

Took some advanced lessons years ago after passing my bike test. Read the Advanced driving book also.

Maximum progression surprised me.I expected to be driving slooooowwwwwly

Using vanishing points transformed my driving experience.

Mantra on the bike (and car)  fast, but safe

Finally someone is being honest about the objective, doggy cam.

It only works until it doesn't work and then you're going faster.

People have accused me of never going on a course, well I did, right at the start of when I started driving.

Of not knowing what it's about, well I had a copy of that 1935 book referred toand read cover to cover.

I'l just cover one point in the training - predicting where the road is going to go. They give all sorts of stuff that give clues about where the road goes. The barmiest was telegraph lines,  do you really trust telegraph lines to always folllow the road? No

Without a co-driver I know I'd have been lulled off the road on numerous occasions by firebreaks, electricity cable cuttings, telegraph cables, the road suddenly changing from following the contour to diving downhill... . if you use indicators beyond the road you can see to drive faster sooner or later you'll yourself going too fast in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Even with a co-driver you can get caught, we had to use OS maps in the forests back in the day, no pace notes (small errors in pace notes is another story). On one occasion my co-driver called a "flar right maybe" on a very fast section in Dyfi. I lifted a tad thankfully and floated through feeling very uncomforatble - there were already four cars off the road and one dead driver. It was hardly noticeable on the map and tighter than it looked from reading the road and the lie of the land.

"Mantra on the bike (and car)  fast, but safe"

These two things are mutually exclusive most of the time. Motorway and dual carriageway fair enough - you can see for miles so can hoon it at silly speeds safely if the motorway is empty and weather good, but if you're talking about vanishing points then you're talking about blind bends, therefore more country B road driving so you're making progress 'quickly but safely', watching that vanishing point enabling you to take a bend even more quickly, then all of a sudden you're on top of a cyclist/horse/pedestrian/sheep in the road, at the same time there is an oncoming car so no option to avoid.

Not so much fast but safe, more like fast and lucky....so far.

Car handling skills are pointless and are the sort of thing that makes people overconfident....the whole point is not to get into a situation where you're dealing with a skid or reacting to an unexpected situation. You've failed long before that point.

I love driving fast as much as anyone, but roads today are much busier than they used to be, the days of having fun on public roads is over. We have the safest roads in the world, but even we have hit a limit with about 3500 deaths a year (or whatever it is now) on the roads and we've failed to make headway into that over the last 10 years or so after a steady decline before that. People insisting on 'making progress' in pursuit of a few giggles and an adrenaline buzz are the problem. just do everyone a favour and get a track day car and look for your fun off public roads. If you really want to prove your machoness behind the wheel then put your money where your mouth is and go racing and pit your driving skills up against others.

I’l just cover one point in the training – predicting where the road is going to go. They give all sorts of stuff that give clues about where the road goes. The barmiest was telegraph lines,  do you really trust telegraph lines to always folllow the road? No

In my first advanced course, 25 years ago, we were specifically taught don’t trust telegraph poles as they go off piste. You want to get your money back for your course Ed 😉

Same here read the road not the surroundings as they can’t be trusted. I was also taught the vanishing point is one thing that you use to assess your speed if it’s long you can go faster if it’s short you adjust your speed. The vanishing point is also progressive not speeding hurtling up to one point to another. Either some of you didn’t listen or were taught really badly. I’m also not sure what rally driving has to with it.

"‘quickly but safely’, watching that vanishing point enabling you to take a bend even more quickly, then all of a sudden you’re on top of a cyclist/horse/pedestrian/sheep in the road, at the same time there is an oncoming car so no option to avoid."

I think that misunderstandings are the issue. The limit point is not about enabling you to take a bend even more quickly, it's about being able to stop in the distance that you can see to be clear

Telegraph poles and other cues give a clue, but they're not necessarily acted upon because they cross roads to properties, which can be misleading when they appear to follow a straight course when they're actually crossing the road on a sharp bend. You should take all available information and not one detail

Car handling skills are not pointless because taught properly, off-road, they'll teach you just how quickly you can cross the line between safe and unsafe, and how to act when electronic stability programmes, ABS, etc activate

"the whole point is not to get into a situation where you’re dealing with a skid or reacting to an unexpected situation. You’ve failed long before that point."

I couldn't agree more

Someone really doesn't understand vanishing points....

Unexpected situations happen. Knowing how to deal with them helps. As an example - an animal suddenly crossing the road.

I don't use vanishing points to drive faster, I use them to drive safer and smoother.

I have said in another thread, people who speed excessively are usually idiots.

I took it off road, rallying, circuit racing and then racing motorbikes.

Proves nothing speeding on open roads, definitely not what a good driver you are

The principles of Roadcraft apply very well to non-response (blue light) driving. Although the 'system' of car control under roadcraft is a complete ballache to master, once it 'clicks', it works very well. Even if the 'system' isn't fully mastered, most drivers would benefit from exposure to some aspects of Roadcraft.

Better positioning, observation and anticipation of what may occur allows the driver to plan their own journey far better. Simple things like leaving a decent gap and looking much further ahead across bends / junctions means you are already reacting to things long before the people around you have even noticed them. Often, you can maintain a higher average speed and save fuel by anticipating queues, gaps at roundabouts or when lights will change. Most folk drive up to things too quickly, slow down quite abruptly and look late. Advanced driving simply isn't about booting it everywhere or catching oversteer.

In regard to IAM / RoSPA, I ran a police driving school for a few years and had to liaise with both, mostly arranging visits. Yeah, they're a bit earnest / geeky and obviously can't do response / pursuit / high speed work but they largely know their Roadcraft and could help most drivers raise their game. Many IAM / RoSPA examiners are advanced police drivers with a wealth of knowledge far beyond application of the system of car control.

Would recommend either organisation. There's now't to lose and much to learn.

Exceedingly well put Downshep.