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The law is unlikely to prosecute two fifteen year olds experimenting with sex and if it did they would receive far different sentences including a out of court resolution such as a reprimand or caution .
The age difference and the grooming are the entire point / gravem of the offence . It is the exploitation of power over a person vulnerable by age immaturity for sexual gratification. It is because 15 year olds are up for it and willing that the law directs adults to protect them from what can be incredibly damaging experiences. I have just dealt with a similar but historic case where I got to see the long term psychological impact of my clients behaviour on a woman who was now in her late 30s .
Bare in mind all the abuse internet stalking humiliation and death threats his supporters have heaped on her because of his behaviour. That flows directly from his preplanned decision to commit a crime against her .
If a motorist followed a 15 year old on a bike around for months waiting for the ideal moment then deliberately ran her over killing her he'd get life for murder.
Outofbreath - It's not moral outrage. It's about a child being abused by an adult. The fact that you seem to think that this isn't a big deal is a worry. The fact that you don't seem to have a problem with what Ian Watkins had planned to do to babies (which was a whole lot more than "get them to suck his knob) is even scarier.
tpbiker's posts reveals the attitude of those who justify this crime to themselves
"she was asking for it", etc etc
vile
The straw mannimg has started so one last post on this.
Two people have had sex who shouldn't have.
The Victorians would have blamed the girl for tempting him with her body. We blame him for tempting her with his fame/cash.
The reality is they both knew they were doing wrong and the biggest victim here is his wife and child who will suffer far more than the girl.
Two people have had sex who shouldn't have.
The Victorians would have blamed the girl for tempting him with her body. We blame him for tempting her with his fame/cash.
The reality is they both knew they were doing wrong and the biggest victim here is his wife and child who will suffer far more than the girl.
I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding about what went on here. She was 15 and a fan of his club/him. He was an adult and at least a decade older. He used his position as someone who could get hold of things like club shirts to persuade her into sexual activity because he deserved something in return. It's obviously predatory behaviour. To say the girlfriend is the real victim is nonsense.
nope. the point is that the 15 year old wouldn't have been fully aware of going on which us why we they are protected under law. she might have realised she was doing something she wasnt meant to but that doesnt mean that she realised she was being manipulated by an adult for his gratification.The reality is they both knew they were doing wrong
Two people have had sex who shouldn't have.
A 15 year old girl, after 800 texts and messages and pestering from you, meets you in a car, and you put your hand down her trousers. You know this to be illegal,(not least as you're so stupid you had to check via google) but you do it anyway...
That isn't, in any normal person's view at least, two people having sex.
The straw mannimg has started so one last post on this.
Two people have had sex who shouldn't have.
The Victorians would have blamed the girl for tempting him with her body. We blame him for tempting her with his fame/cash.
The reality is they both knew they were doing wrong and the biggest victim here is his wife and child who will suffer far more than the girl.
The reality???
No, The reality is the police thought one person had done something very wrong. A jury agreed with them on most of it. He's now got six years.
@nick I personally think he was so thick / twisted he thought kissing and putting his hands down her trousers was ok but sex might not be so he checked age of consent on his phone after the incident.
It does seem the reason this story came out is the girl created a chat group to share the fact she'd been meeting him, this then turned into ridicule of her and she told her father who then told the mum who went to the police. We have the law to protect young people, they need protecting.
The more I've read on this the more unpleasant and manipulative he clearly is. Hopefully the 3 years inside he will serve will focus his mind a bit.
Its a somewhat different story but Bill Wyman was having sex with Mandy Smith when she was 14, they married when she was 18. Despite being interviewed by the police there was never any prosecution.
A 15 year old girl, after 800 texts and messages and pestering from you, meets you in a car, and you put your hand down her trousers. You know this to be illegal,(not least as you're so stupid you had to check via google) but you do it anyway...
That's not quite what happened though - she sent a friend request to him on Facebook and he accepted, then he messaged her first asking for her phone number. She didn't believe it was actually him, so he sent her a message on Twitter. She accepted (her favourite footballer from her favourite team!) and he then started grooming her. In response to his questions, she told him she'd just turned 15, that she wasn't old enough to go out, and asked him for a signed shirt. He gave her a signed shirt, flattered her, then made it clear he expected sexual favours in return.
Although she sent the friends request (not uncommon for young fans of either gender to send requests to their favourite musicians/sports stars, etc), he was the one who initiated the messaging and personal contact, and he was the one that kept on turning the chat in a sexual direction. He blatantly initiated contact with the intent of grooming her for sexual gratification, despite already having a number of (hopefully mostly adult...) sexual partners. The insidious thing about grooming is that it lures the victim into thinking that what's happening is normal, and that they have some sort of meaningful relationship with their abuser, and it can take years for them to realise that they were exploited by a pervert.
Fortunately I don't have personal experience with this (I didn't even get a snog until I was a positively ancient 18!), but I did have quite a few school friends that had 'older' boyfriends - they were 13-15, the boyfriends were 25-35. In a couple of cases, the older blokes were genuinely just a bit weird - massively immature man children who couldn't maintain relationships with women their own age, and the girls actually seemed more mature than their boyfriends.
But with most, they were blokes that were targeting teenage girls because they knew that their lack of experience led to a lack of confidence, combined with a desperate desire to seem cool and mature, meant that they could be manipulated into doing all sorts of awful stuff (heavy drinking, drugs, amateur porn, etc).
Even in the case of Mandy Smith, she now argues that the age of consent should be raised to 18 due to her own experiences.
Well said.
Spot on mrstoast.
Agreed well said Mrs Toast.
Age of consent though seems irrelevant in Mandy Smiths case Wyman started dating her when she was 13 and had sex at 14 so whether the consent age was 16 or 18 makes no difference.
Laws vary widely though ...
France 15
Germany 14 provided age gap not more than 3 years
Italy 14 with exception that two 13yo is ok
When it comes to football Frank Ribery has a bit of a track record, allegedly
They both knew what they were doing? Youd feel happy if you had a daughter who was groomed?
Does ANY 15yr old girl know what she wants and has the maturity of an adult?
He was an adult who preyed on a developing teenager.
You know those straw men you posted ^^
Torch them up will you
Im guessing you still haven't worked out what was strawmanny about your posts 🙄
Does ANY 15yr old girl know what she wants and has the maturity of an adult?
Some could.
Again, not in any way defending Johnson, but does some magic switch go off in a boy or girls head when they wake up on their 16th birthday that allows them to make adult decisions all of a sudden.
The increased sexualisation of children and much freer access to adult material must have changed the landscape significantly for young teenagers
Again, not in any way defending Johnson, but does some magic switch go off in a boy or girls head when they wake up on their 16th birthday that allows them to make adult decisions all of a sudden.
No. But that just means we stop protecting them when they're 16 (because you have to draw the line somewhere). I'm not sure it would be much less wrong if she had been 16, but crucially it would have been legal.
How do STWers see grooming compared with forced marriage?
The forced marriage unit deals with over 1000 cases a year (only a proportion of the people forced into marriage) of which one in eight is under 16. And yet I've failed to find anyone being jailed for a forced marriage concerning an underage girl. When jail sentences have been handed out they have been for cases involving older people who have suffered violence, rape, and death threats to get them to marry.
So in answer to the OP: the sentence reflects the media hype. If he were anonymous I doubt it would have made court, because even the IMO more serious offense of forcing an under age person into marriage rarely (if ever) gets to court.
Mrs. Toast is spot on. 100% right.
Let's just bear one thing in mind here. This is a guys wealthy beyond most of our dreams. He has celebrity status and is worshiped by thousands. I think it's pretty safe to say he could have his pick of women. Yet he decides to prey on a 15 y/o girl. A girl who has just turned 15 at that. Why? He knew it was wrong, he googled it. Had the girl not confessed to her dad who's to say how far it would have gone. I'm quite confident that once he'd achieved his goal then she would have been quickly passed over for the next conquest. It's plain and simple. He wanted to **** a 15 year old girl. How old would the next one be? Thankfully it's not something anyone needs to worry about anymore.
Mrs. Toast is right. There are definite parallels between Johnson, the Asian grooming gangs and Ian Watkins. Those who are defending him should be ashamed of themselves.
@Educator. Not sure what point you are trying to make. Sentence reflects the media hype? Don't think so. Oh, and for the record forced marriage is abhorrent and anyone involved in making it happen should be tried and if found guilty sent down accordingly.
The sentence appears to be towards the bottom end of the tariff for the particular nature of the offence. Judges don't just make up sentences, it couldn't have been much lower given the proven facts of the case. I'm not sure whether his position of power made a difference to the categorisation which gave that sentencing range, but I'd be surprised if it didn't.
Perhaps you'll get my point if you consider what would happen if the media found out a pro footballer were involved in a forced marriage with an underage girl. I'm absolutely certain he would be "sent down accordingly". According to the crime and his status. A challenge for you, of those hundreds of forced under-age marriages reported by the FMU, find me one protagonist that was prosecuted.
As with all offences there are degrees of severity. Everyone seems to agree he did a despicable thing but whilst there may be parallels with more heinous offenders, some comparisons seem to me to be sufficiently removed as to risk undermining the argument imho.
In truth I don't know what the right answer is but presumably one more uncertain juror would have meant a not guilty verdict - my experience of jury service was anything but inspiring and served to confirm for me that there ought to be a minimum intelligence test of some sort if justice is to be served.
Edukator. Forced marriage is most definitely wrong, however as I understand it they take place abroad so they cannot be prosecuted here ? I believe the age of consent in the UK is 16 for sex and 18 for marriage, you can be married befire 18 with parental permission ?
@aracer I think sentence was towards bottom end of the range as it wasn't full sex, not sure though.
When all is said and done this is certainly a wake up call for other footballers
Girls under the age of 16 are married by clerics in the UK, Jambalaya. One was quoted as saying he would be happy to marry girls of 12.
Do you have his name or details to identify the individual or was it an anonymous quote?
Educator can you provide any evidence to show any forced marriage of an underage girl in the UK that has been consomethinged and not prosecuted ?
Double post
@Edukator, I was speaking about legally recognised weddings not behind closed doors religious ones. I can't comment on underage weddings under Islam although it's widely known religious weddings take place here in the UK without them being conducted/duplicated legally.
Watch France 24 today. There's a special on forced marriage including the UK running. Right now in fact and no doubt again later.
Google Grankboy, if I can find examples I'm sure you can. A Judge couldn't even cancel the marriage in one case, which tells you they are legally binding, Jambalaya.
A Judge couldn't even cancel the marriage in one case, which tells you they are legally binding, Jambalaya.
Got a copy of the judgement?
There are two parties at fault here, Adam Johnson for obvious reasons and he has been dealt with accordingly.
The parents of this child have surely let their daughter down here. I know where my Son is every second of every day. If I had a daughter I would be even more paranoid.
So any parent who doesn't keep their teenage daughter under lock and key every hour of the day is at fault if they get groomed?
Rubbish.
There's only one person at fault here, and he's in jail.
Inbred456 - Member
... I know where my Son is every second of every day. If I had a daughter I would be even more paranoid.
As a parent of teenagers you cannot ever KNOW where they are every second but you can avoid being naive by not assuming you do.
No, Thisisniotaspoon, however if you are prepared to believe the judge's words quoted by the [url= http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/11/05/muslim-girl-forced-marriage_n_4217206.html ]Huffington Post.[/url]
I also agree with Mrs toast
@Edukator The Judge couldn't nullify the marriage because the request came from a third party not the victim, it is quite clear that if the victim had made the request he would have. It may be a legal loophole that needs clearing up to allow official parties working in the victims best interests to make the request, but that case isn't as you had been representing it.
So Educator you can't find a UK example of a forced marriage in the HK where the man has escaped prosecution but you have found an example of one where a judge said if the wife applied it would be declared a nulity but a third party has no standing to have someone else's marriage nullified .
I was only using it to demonstrate that under age marriages were legally recognised in answer to Jamby, MSP. The judge clearly acknowledged the girl was married even though she was under-age when married.
The victim would have had to make more than a request, she would have have to take legal proceedings which would have added to her trauma.
No details of the cleric who "would be happy to marry girls of 12" in the UK Edukator?
Where did you see the quote?
Ernie, use Google, try something like "cleric happy to marry girls of 12". Sunday Times or Daily Mail.
Why all the disbelief? You're the fourth person to query what I'm posting on this thread.
When teaching in the UK in a middle school one of the 15-year-old girls was a prostitute. Nothing was ever done about it and no attempt made to bring her clients to justice. Now what do you think would have happened if one of those clients had been a famous footballer?
The degree of "turning a blind eye" to all sorts of illegal activity was staggering. Mustn't make waves in the community, tolerance of blah, blah. Well as I've already stated we walked out.
I'm not defending the footballer, I just think it would be nice if society put as much effort into doing something about the more serious crimes against women that are never even investigated because they don't concern famous footballers and nobody dares even if somebody cares.
Ernie, use Google, try something like "cleric happy to marry girls of 12". Sunday Times or Daily Mail.Why all the disbelief? You're the fourth person to query what I'm posting on this thread.
It has nothing to do with disbelieving you. I was interested in the details as it suggests a serious breach of UK laws.
I've done what you've suggested, ie, googled "cleric happy to marry girls of 12" and it did indeed take me to a Daily Mail article, the last paragraph of the article states :
[i]The Home Office said: ‘Child marriage is totally unacceptable and illegal. Perceived cultural sensitivities and political correctness cannot and will not get in the way of preventing and uncovering such abuse.’[/i]
The point I wanted to make is that if there is evidence of child abuse then it should be reported and dealt with in the appropriate manner, as has happened in the Adam Johnson case.
Furthermore the article states that "an investigation has found" this apparently means "an undercover Sunday Times reporter", which I'm sure you'll agree isn't necessarily the most reliable source, specially if they haven't passed their information to the police. My initial interest in your comment was whether there had been a prosecution.
I agree with all that, Ernie. In reality there is a gulf between the Home Office statement and the reality of what happens on the ground. See Rotherham. And in my personal experience (going back a long time I know) a teacher is more likely to be intimidated by their hierarchy than supported in dealing with illegal activity concerning their students whether perpetrators or victims.
Where you get to is child marriages are illegal and not recognised as valid marriages if preformed in this country but this country recognises a foreign marriage as valid if legal in that foreign country and will recognise that marriage legally to the extent our courts will take steps to disolve it or render it a nulity if appropriate . If our courts did not "recognise" a foreign forced or child marriage how could they legally end it in away that had international effect ?