MegaSack DRAW - 6pm Christmas Eve - LIVE on our YouTube Channel
I wish we could track and trace persistent bellends and send them to an island to be bellends together.
Australia have got much stricter about immigration since those days.....
I wish we could track and trace persistent bellends and send them to an island to be bellends together.
I do hope that was a bit of Brexit tongue in cheek.
Bridges – and you miss the point
No; you either just don't understand it, or simply want to argue a stupid point. Fortunately, others do understand it. You just want it to be 'football', so that you can feel superior about the sport YOU choose to follow. 'Oh look at me, I'm better than you'. Knock yourself out. I can't be bothered.
Some people are utter dicks, some of those people were at Wembley last night.
Drac nails it!
Seems to be an odd trend recently on here (since Brexit, sorry) about claiming that this country is somehow special in the racist stakes. It really isn’t, it’s a problem throughout most countries which is extremely sad and quite pathetic.
I have been to many rugby and cricket matches over many decades. drunken boorishness is not uncommon but racism and violence? never seen any
attendance at rugby and cricket is orders of magnitude less. FWIW I haven't actually seen trouble at football since the early 90's - lot's of shout and bluster though.
I just did a quick tally up and I reckon on any given Saturday afternoon (or nowadays, Friday evening / Sunday evening/////) 3/4 million people go to matches in the four English top levels.
Add in Scottish, Welsh, NI and also the pro non-league pyramid, possibly over 1M. That's approaching 2% of the UK population
(you want proof - EPL, ave attendance 38K x 10 games = 380K; Champ 20K x 12, Div 1 8.7K x 12, Div 2 5 x 12)
Multiply by a 38 or 46 game season, that's a huge number of attendances / 'opportunities to create an issue'
Gallagher Premiership - 14K x 6 games per week = 84K by a 22 game season.
Football is a microcosm of society, and far more than rugby and cricket has a demographic right across society.
Like I said earlier, it’s not just England.
Anyone who thinks this is not a problem with football needs their bumps felt
the whole issue is simply not attached to another sport.
It doesn't matter if only 10% attendence at rugby com pared to football - there is 100% less violence
its a football problem and a football problem only
I think what TJ may be saying is the right wing have attached themselves to the England national team, which I’d agree with. Apologies if I’ve misunderstood you’re last post.
Within England I think it is a small number of right wing bigots, followed by a larger number of drunken yobs. I also think the same drunken yobs can be found at other sports but in much smaller numbers causing much less damage and receiving much less press.
In the UK. Its not just england even in the UK - football in scotland has its own thug issue.
its a football problem and a football problem only
It's a society problem. Football doesn't exist in a vacuum.
Also:
https://twitter.com/johnnyddavidson/status/1157777889129111553
I do hope that was a bit of Brexit tongue in cheek.
It was covering a few bases, I thought. Didn't think anybody would pick up on it 🙂
Correlation does not equal causation TJ - can you not understand that?
I grew up in a town that was particularly bad for this kind of shit, we used to get on the national news whenever England got knocked out.
Football wasn't the root of the problem, it was the racist, violent ****s who lived there - mostly having moved out of London because there were too many dark faces.
Cheers OP, I enjoyed that👍
Yeeessss I'm in to watch the final..... Opens door and Wallop😲
I've heard from a very reliable sauce that the security had been paid to funnel those blaggards through those doors.
@tj - its a football problem and a football problem only
So if football ceased to exist the problem would go away. If that were true then as much as I love the game I'd call for it to be banned tomorrow.
Is that your argument? Because you're wired to the ****ing moon if it is.
I’ve heard from a very reliable sauce that the security had been paid to funnel those blaggards through those doors.
Was it your Daddy?
So if football ceased to exist the problem would go away.
Violence pre, post or during a match would. As would football hooliganism. Bit of a silly argument from all sides as the answer is nobody knows. You’d have to stop footy for a few years to find out either way. Do the dicks migrate to other sports or dissipate and join the Saturday night drunk fight brigade. Who knows?
There's also the fact that without alcohol almost none of this happens either.
When they were too frightened to take on the Russian firms they turn up to stuff like this:
Free Tommy Robinson
Was it your Daddy?
Might take a moment for him to ketchup with your humour.
I have never been a huge fan of football in my lifetime so far.
Yesterdays, after match performance from so called fans... I will never watch it again.
Embarassed to be English at the moment 🙁
I prefered watching the The Dutchess on the other channel with Kira Knightly 😉
Leader of the opposition being shown how to do it properly by Tyrone Mings and Baroness Warsi
BBC News - Boris Johnson failed leadership test over taking the knee, says Keir Starmer
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57778668
I’ve heard from a very reliable sauce that the security had been paid to funnel those blaggards through those doors.
Your “sauce” is is as reliable as your spelling I’m afraid.
There is plenty of footage of them outside kicking down barriers and fighting with security.
i was actually given a ticket by some welsh fans and sat amongst them one match
I've sat in the other end at plenty of football matches and I've never had a problem. I've had some odd looks once when I loudly celebrated a goal, but that's it.
TJ is denying it even when shown proof, but there are violent tw*ts that follow every sport. Froome was spat at and Merckx was punched by cycling fans, remember?
They could equally as likely got all fighty because someone had bought pizza with pineapple on it.
Friend was in a pub where someone came in and had a go at a couple for ordering a pizza, obviously not patriotic enough.of course it was the only thing on the menu but whatever.
Absolutely alcohol is partly to blame, whether it's those that raid every offy and supermarket in a 10 mile radius or the pubs that let folk get tanked up for hours before.
TJs kinda right as well. It's not as endemic in other sports but in a given country the idiots will tag onto whatevers most popular. (Canada in ice hockey violence shocker!) Banning it isn't an answer but to those if us who don't give a toss about it it would be bloody nice if it was.
Like I said earlier, it’s not just England
I'm hearing this a lot at the minute, but that was just England, it's not a comfortable thought but that is what England projected last night, the build up and national nonsense around it made it a very English thing, 'it's coming home etc', then lost and the lasting image everyone outside England sees is thugs giving someone a kicking.
But sure, lets find examples of others doing it, that will help.
I suspect that these are the same people who start random fights in bars and clubs, and are involved in road rage incidents etc.
Football matches/hooliganism is just their convenient excuse/justification for violence - here it seems to be disguised a something to do with people without tickets rushing the gates, but throwing punches and kicking folk lying on the ground are the actions of somebody pre-disposed and comfortable with violence. If it hadn't have been this, it would have been something else.
Anyone willing to make a bet against every single one of those "fans" involved having previous for football violence? Phew, lucky they were on-hand, just as the thinnest justification for violence materialised.... what are the chances?
But sure, lets find examples of others doing it, that will help.
I think for me the point is not 'well everyone does it so what's the big deal' but more that it's easy to point the finger at other people while ignoring your own issues.
We do have a serious problem with hooliganism/loutish behaviour generally and I suspect England is one of the worst countries in Europe for it. There must be many reasons why that is For me it's probably a toxic combo of massive inequality (we are one of the worst developed nations for this), the decline of most of our industry, and the legacy of our former standing in the world/British exceptionalism. Maybe get Thatcherite selfishness in there too 😉
We seem to have little sense of community or shared responsibility. Our safety net is usually much less generous than other countries, same for pensions. The poor/immigrants etc are routinely vilified, our national press is an utter disgrace. Littering seems to my eye worse here than any other European country I've been to for example.
But.... I'm also not convinced that Italians and Danes smugly condemning the awful English thugs is very helpful either. The far right seems to me to be on the rise everywhere, and until we tackle the kind of inequality and lack of social cohesion/sense of purpose many people feel, it's going to get worse not better.
[/lefty rant]
We deserve to win though
Like we deserve a foreign holiday
Because covid obviously
We didn't get what we deserved and there was a backlash
You can here someone shout 'f----n p--i at the Asian lad they beat up so I'm not sure it's all about rage at ticketless fans
And I don't see how violence like that makes any sense even if they did have no tickets
https://twitter.com/TheWorstTom/status/1414318664556466181?s=19
Also guy in the original video kind of looks like Chips?
And like it or not the violence and racism gets more headlines around the world than the football
https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1413935287038849028?s=19
If scrabble was the most popular sport it would be scrabble people who like to fight or whatever gather round.
Humans in general are very unthinking, even most of of the people in this thread who condemn this behaviour in this thread will largely be unthinking. Very few people are actually considered in their thoughts and actions. Different people react differently unfortunately in large groups the feeling for largest group cohesion results in lowest common denominator behaviour, which in a high strung environment frequently end up violent.
As for the idea that this is a English or UK based problem I am afraid not. Its universal.
Just a quick straw poll as an aside. The tall-ish bald fella doing most of the kicking on that vid. If we had to speculate, do you think he voted Leave or Remain?
Binary choice. One word only. Leave or Remain.
I think, deep down, even our most prominent Brexit Appeasers on here know the answer.
I dont think our drinking culture helps (and that's definitely a UK wide issue)
Stella has a lot to answer for!
I got the train into London on Saturday afternoon, ~1/3rd of our carriage was lads drinking heavily and singing 3 lions, with overnight bags
36hrs of drinking + some cocaine is always going to end a certain way
If scrabble was the most popular sport it would be scrabble people who like to fight or whatever gather round.
Bollocks.
Football matches/hooliganism is just their convenient excuse/justification for violence
I knew a lad who was a hardcore scrapper (Everton Firm) in the 90's. Actually watching the match was neither here nor there. He would travel to every away game purely for the rucks. He was also unbelievably racist and an unashamed Combat 18 member. The two tend to go hand in hand.
The difference back then was that, as he used to put it: 'no civilians are involved'. It was all organised in advance, with two rival firms meeting up at a pre-ordained venue, normally well away from the ground, to beat the living shit out of each other. All willing participants.
Whatever floats your boat, eh?
A lot of what seems to go on at Engerland games and with modern hooliganism seems to be completely indiscriminate (as the videos have shown) with anyone and everyone being attacked, even kids, and smashing everything up just for the sake of it.
Eight letter word - impressive if you could get that down - esp on a triple word score…
Binners ruined it for me…!
The story of my life
If scrabble was the most popular sport it would be scrabble people who like to fight or whatever gather round.
Humans in general are very unthinking
I disagree with the notions that all humans either act as unthinking individuals or that all cultures are equivalent around popular sports.
For example:
"You often hear people say that football is a reflection of culture. An important aspect of Japanese society is making sure that everything is absolutely clean and that's the case in all sporting events and certainly also in football."
But…. I’m also not convinced that Italians and Danes smugly condemning the awful English thugs is very helpful either. The far right seems to me to be on the rise everywhere, and until we tackle the kind of inequality and lack of social cohesion/sense of purpose many people feel, it’s going to get worse not better.
It doesn't matter about the nationality of whoever is condemning the violence seen on Sunday night. If you're against such behaviour, against racism, you condemn it wherever it exists. But the fact, that tjagain so perfectly demonstrates, is that people are too quick to condemn 'others', yet refuse/are unable to look within, at problems inside our own group/tribe. That violence happened in England, within our own society, and we need to look at it ourselves, and condemn it as a nation. End of. Whatabouttery is irrelevant here. It's no good crying about problems elsewhere, when we can't sort our own shit out.
The difference back then was that, as he used to put it: ‘no civilians are involved’. It was all organised in advance, with two rival firms meeting up at a pre-ordained venue, normally well away from the ground, to beat the living shit out of each other. All willing participants.
That was bollocks then, and it's bollocks now. C-18 member, you say (you do mix with some lovely, people, I have to say)? So the footie hooliganism was separate to his neo-Nazi activities? Bollocks. Hooligans are hooligans; they just need an excuse. He'd have been as happy doing some 'P***-bashing' as he would have kicking a rival team's supporter in the head. The links between football hooliganism and far-right activity have long been established, and known about. Many of the big football 'firms', such as West Ham's ICF, Leeds United's Service Crew, Chelsea's Headhunters, Birmingham City's Zulus, and other groups, had predominantly far-right wing memberships. Such groups have been effectively neutered, and 'official' memberships have collapsed, due to efforts to rid football of such hooligan tendencies, but the lust for violence is still strong in many followers. Many older hooligans were former members of aforementioned groups and others. Football, as already explained, simply offers a convenient vehicle for such hooliganism. But unless we, as a society, continue to address the issues that create such environments for the angry, frustrated inadequates, then it will never go away. And right now, we have a sitting government which is effectively condoning such behaviour. That is a huge obstacle that needs to be overcome. How we do that, is anyone's guess. But right now, we need solidarity amongst all those who abhor such fascistic behaviour. Because without that, we'll get nowhere.
Hooligans ain't what they used to be, eh?
They look exactly the same to me TBH.
I don't think our drinking culture helps (and that’s definitely a UK wide issue)
Stella has a lot to answer for!
I got the train into London on Saturday afternoon, ~1/3rd of our carriage was lads drinking heavily and singing 3 lions, with overnight bags
36hrs of drinking + some cocaine is always going to end a certain way
The UK's attitude to alcohol definitely adds fuel to the fire. I was never a big drinker, maybe 2-3 pints once a week, but when I had to stop drinking for a medical reason nearly 10 years ago it quickly became obvious to me how many people rely on the stuff to get through their lives and enable them to have a personality. I quickly realised that there were a few people in my social network that I only knew when they had some alcohol in them! It's a similar experience to when I went to a French supermarket for the first time and noticed that their section for crisps, sweets and soft drinks was tiny compared to the multiple aisles and till-end displays we have here.
Speaking to a friend this morning who was there. Middle aged family man who travels all over with his 18yr old son to games pretty much every weekend. Follows england at every oppertunity. He had been to the QF & SF too but seemed to think he didnt see any of the issues at those games.
They got to Leicester Square just before it was closed off by police. You couldnt see the floor because of rubbish, broken glass and empty beer cans. Within 5 mins a wine bottle had been thrown which landed at his sons feet. They left pretty quickly. Walking up wembley way it was a similar story. Rammed full of people there for the occassion. Rubbish, broken glass, empty beer cartons everywhere. No real police presence and people basically getting drunker and drunker. He said it was extremely intimidating. This is a man who supports Rangers and has been in some pretty uncomfortable situations before so he knows when things are starting to get dangerous. He reckons the ground was full of people shadowing. This is where people have got really close to you as you went through with your ticket and pushed through 2 people for the 1 space. I have also heard of people offering money for this too. My friend reckons a guy was sat next to him, stank of bear and BO. This guy was by himself, not really into the game and when Rashford came on, lent over and asked who he was. Really?
Anyhow, a few other observations he had. He spoke to someone who had needed medical help due to cutting themselves on glass. They had been taken to an area for medical help and witnessed hundreds of police sat/stood around awaiting to be deployed. The situation i was described is a corona check point and then a ticket check point barrier system was in place. Why on earth did they not put half a dozen police at each of these check points. A nice big GS dog at each or a mounted policeman even better.
His final comment was regarding after the game. He was quite astonished that no attempt to clean up wembley way was made during the match. He reckoned that they could have had a fleet of road sweepers ready and really got the area back to normal quickly. Not sure what effect it would have had but he said it was rather shocking walking away from wembley in what felt like war torn beruit. He had to get the tube and managed to get one at about 11pm. He reckoned zero changes had been made to the timetables to allow for people travelling back from the game.
I have heard that for major finals EUFA take over the running of the ground/safety/security etc but surely it is done in conjunction with the countries police and fa. Maybe not.
I disagree with the notions that all humans either act as unthinking individuals or that all cultures are equivalent around popular sports.
Good point re Japanese but is Football the post popular sport over there? and there could be other things at play that make Japan an exception which results in the behaviour manifesting itself in other ways. I think it hold true across Europe at least.
As for the unthinking maybe we are talking about different things. Unthinking doesn't mean stupid to me it means acting rashly and on emotional response. We all do this and when you observe how a population at large act the reactions are largely reactionary and on emotion.
How we do that, is anyone’s guess. But right now, we need solidarity amongst all those who abhor such fascistic behaviour. Because without that, we’ll get nowhere.
I think Priti Patels and Boris's furious back-pedalling on the issue over the last day or so indicates something positive.
Shameless populists that they are, but also arch-opportunists, even people as lacking in morals as they are can see when they're on the wrong side of an argument this time, and have mis-read the mood of the majority of the population.
It's too late now, obviously. We can all see that they are on the same side as the racist thugs. They always were, obviously, but hopefully the events of the last few days have opened a few more peoples eyes to the true nature of the charlatans presently running the country, and whats really behind their flag-waving nationalism
Bollocks.
Strong argument.
I dont think our drinking culture helps (and that’s definitely a UK wide issue)
Yep, but this is actually pretty similar over most of Europe ime. Perhaps less so in Spain / France (I have very little French experience so can't comment) but central /eastern its just the same.
Good point re Japanese but is Football the post popular sport over there?
My point was hopefully about culture. I know that Japan’s most popular sport is baseball but I couldn’t find much/anything about Japanese baseball fan violence. That’s not to say it doesn’t/does exist but from what I can find about their most popular sport it certainly doesn’t seem to support your ‘Scrabble’ theory.
I did find this:
stank of bear and BO
Blimey. That is taking the masculine aggression thing a bit far even for these neanderthals. Musky!
I presume the ursine participant was wearing a mask when the exchange of scent took place. You can bet the talentless fat, smelly bastard at the game wouldn't have been!
🐻
I think Priti Patels and Boris’s furious back-pedalling on the issue over the last day or so indicates something positive.
No it isn't. It is the exact same populist MO that Trump and Brexiteers use. Lob the grenade publicly then backtrack in bits over the next few weeks when the story has died down a bit. Safe in the knowledge the 'foot soldiers' heard the initial message clearly.
My point was hopefully about culture. I know that Japan’s most popular sport is baseball but I couldn’t find much/anything about Japanese baseball fan violence.
I don't think it's stereotyping too much to say that Japan has a much more conformist/ordered kind of culture than we do though?
Japanese baseball was benignly 'imposed' on them by the US. It had no 'back story' and has a more 'franchise' model.
Soccer evolved along tribal lines in many ways in many countries. Along sectarian, class and political lines. More than any other sport.
Sheffield United (white collar) vs Sheffield Wednesday (blue collar).
Rangers (protestant) vs Celtic (Catholic).
Real Madrid (monarchist/francoist/castillian) vs Athletico Madrid (workers) or vs Barcelona (seat of anarchism and catalan independence).
In Italy it is even more marked.
Juventus (white collar) vs Torino (blue collar).
Genoa vs Sampdoria (can't remember which way around)
AC (white collar) vs Inter (blue collar).
Lazio (white collar) vs Roma (blue collar).
Roma (capital, orderly, grand) vs Napoli (scary exceptionalists, den of iniquity etc).
Sure some of the cucumber sandwich brigade stuff has moderated these factors, but only a bit. If your domestic teams are set up along confrontational lines then that undercurrent will always be there.
I don’t think it’s stereotyping too much to say that Japan has a much more conformist/ordered kind of culture than we do though?
It is sort of I think. the Japanese have an embedded acceptance of violence against minorities; women, girls, "out" groups like homosexuals, and so on, and they have a cultural acceptance of racism that's honestly quite astonishing and blatant.
repressed craving for shared experience
Yeah, but it is the nature of the shared experience that is the issue for me.
Shared joy? No problem.
Shared 'them' against 'us', backs to the wall, lashing out at enemies of our creation/imagination - the 'others'? No thank you.
It is the mentality that being positive about being 'X' means that you have to want to punch everyone who isn't 'X' that is the issue. It actually betrays a lot of petty insecurities - and as a nation (English) I do feel we are world-beaters at that.
absolute-bedlam-how-ticketless-fans-stormed-wembley
There needs to be a proper investigation into how ticketless fansa drunken mob effectively stormed Wembley.
Aside from the obvious Hillsborough style safety risk of too many fans in one area of the stadium its a huge security risk. Those people bypassing security could have brought anything into the stadium.
I don’t think it’s stereotyping too much to say that Japan has a much more conformist/ordered kind of culture than we do though?
When I see soccer violence I see conformism. A disordered and often drunken conformism, but conformist nonetheless.
Isn’t the premier league football fans violent subculture both conformist and collectivist? Also laced with hefty underpinnings of (principally male) chauvinism and tribalism? Classism plays into it too, I agree. But so (variously) do political/social/cultural shared histories of Nationalism, exceptionalism, jingoism, binge-drinking, racism, sexism etc?
None of those traits/habits in isolation would necessarily upset the World Team Scrabble Championship, yet add them all together and some poor ****er will get his skull bashed in because ‘Scrabble’.
‘OO ARYER?
[url= https://i.postimg.cc/jjBr1W2H/A9-B33-CC0-D439-4-FE4-B599-1704-FEB7-DDFA.jp g" target="_blank">https://i.postimg.cc/jjBr1W2H/A9-B33-CC0-D439-4-FE4-B599-1704-FEB7-DDFA.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
Japanese baseball was benignly ‘imposed’ on them by the US. It had no ‘back story’ and has a more ‘franchise’ model.
Soccer evolved along tribal lines in many ways in many countries. Along sectarian, class and political lines. More than any other sport.
When I see soccer violence I see conformism. A disordered and often drunken conformism, but conformist nonetheless.
Really interesting ideas. I think investigating along those sort of lines, is far more helpful in helping tackle such attitudes, than the 'othering' that so often happens (as exemplified here, with the 'rugby/cricket are better'; 'it's only a football problem'' type comments).
yup, plus-one has it
my brother got sucked into this shitpit just after he finished (failed) college
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luton_Town_MIGs
Its where Yaxley Lennon sprung up and the only thing that saved my brother was getting out & joining the navy
some of his mates from that time never got out, they post racist crap on facebook & twitter, one of his mates, who I was quite close to through cubs & scouts throughly messed his life up, coke, stella & violence
Pie-hole gobbing off today about this:
stank of bear and BO.
A truly grizzly situation
stank of bear and BO.
A truly grizzly situation
Don't panda to our baser instincts.
Don’t panda to our baser instincts.
You’re right we wouldn’t want to create a spectacle.
It's what you get in a country polarised by populism.
What I don't understand with football hooligans is you almost always get stories like this.....
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_Squad
"In February 2008, eleven men were arrested after up to 100 hooligans were involved in running battles between fans from Leicester City and Coventry City outside a pub in Coventry. Police confiscated knives and one man suffered minor head injuries.[4]
The week before the incident with Coventry fans, 13 men were arrested after clashes between fans from Leicester and Norwich in which some men sustained minor injuries.[5]"
How can hundreds of self styled hard men collectively only manage to inflict minor injuries?
Is it just 50 pissed blokes shouting "LET ME AT EM" and 50 others holding them loosely shouting "EEEZ NOT WURF IT MATE"?
I think for me the point is not ‘well everyone does it so what’s the big deal’ but more that it’s easy to point the finger at other people while ignoring your own issues.
We do have a serious problem with hooliganism/loutish behaviour generally and I suspect England is one of the worst countries in Europe for it. There must be many reasons why that is For me it’s probably a toxic combo of massive inequality (we are one of the worst developed nations for this), the decline of most of our industry, and the legacy of our former standing in the world/British exceptionalism. Maybe get Thatcherite selfishness in there too 😉
The toxic culture in England right now is maybe exacerbated by a shift to right wing politics, brexit justifying a range of patriotic garbage and so on, but we all need to face what is right there for everyone to see, it's not alcohol and it's not tory rule, it's a plain simple culture of loutish bigotry.
Examine the threads here looking to suggest others are just as bad, it's this, it's that, no one is taking responsibility and just facing the simple truth, and that is why it happens.
I come originally from Glasgow, and can remember a time when sectarianism ruled peoples habits, stabbing was the common outcome of clashes, you were born into one or other side, it was accepted and justified through blaming the other side, it took decades and more than one generation to evolve out of that and it still exists in pockets, the direction of travel is out of it, when I see references to Scottish football violence my instinct now is to be ashamed, personally, culturally, nationally, the lot, there is no justification, no pointing to others, no escape, you are either ashamed and moving away or justifying and moving toward, I'd suggest you don't make the same mistakes for the sake of the next generation, it doesn't matter that it happens elsewhere, benchmark yourself from countries where it doesn't, not ones where it does.
I agree with the title of the thread.
‘The jib’, how organised the ticketless were.
