[Closed] ABS; SCARY STUFF

rtfm?

Pedal

WHAT IS RTFM ?

surprised you've never used abs before... have you been driving long?

read the ****ing manual.

what bit was scary? and why were you braking too hard on a slippery surface?

read the f*** manual

yeah, 27yrs...

Yep my pet gripe with new cars too, wish it could be turned off.

Big wide profile tyres don't help much in the snow either, like RB says get on the bike, cyclists are now the fastest things on the road.

Smee, I was doing approx 10mph approaching traffic lights out in the sticks when it first happened, ABS, its something ordinary drivers dont think about - I carry a passenger - also long time driver he owns a GTI Golf and he had never witnessed it b4 either.

I was driving round in the snow today. Not once did my ABS kick in. Drive properly and it wont. No matter how slippery it is.

27 years... blimey, must have been lucky, I've had to use abs a few times over the years, must admit it was a strange feeling the first time.

Dont forget to steer when braking. Otherwise you will just slide into whatever your trying to avoid.

Go and find an empty carpark and experiment. Can you turn it off and see what happens.

Ive got it fitted to my motorcycle but turn it off when off road.

Smee, the roads I used 2nite were like glass and out in the countryside - not 'A' roads, however, is ABS a standard safety device fitted across all makes / models or do manufacturers tweak settings/sensitivity etc, also my car does not have ESP..

How to drive in snow: plan ahead and keep things smooth - real smooth. Braking harshly or steering quickly WILL get you into a whole heap of trouble. If it does go tits up, boot it (works most of the time)

This car has ESP

[img] [/img]

is ABS a standard safety device

No it's not. It varies from car to car. It is entirely possible that the ABS on your car cuts in more readily than on others. In reality I suspect most mainstream cars have similarly sensitive ABS.

Smee, It was the ABS that caught me out -- NOT my driving

If your ABS is kicking in it was your driving that was at fault. It only kicks in when your wheels are doing different speeds due to skidding.

I have a witness - the ABS suddenly kicked in - 10mph - straight line - icy road - driving 27 yrs - using engine braking - tyre pressures checked each w/end - car well serviced / driver not drunk - IT JUST HAPPENED.

It doesn't just happen. Learn from it. You didn't think you were going to fast but you obviously were...

There are three main causes of skidding, overbraking, oversteering and overacceleration.

You braked too hard for the conditions, the ABS kicked in. That's what it does.

I prefer my non ABS car in snow. Old school cadence braking technique learnt many years ago 🙂

[b]NOOOooooooo. I did not brake too hard !! from 10mph ????? on a flat road !!!!!! [/b]NOOOOOoooooo I did not brake too hard, The ABS probably came in cos loss of traction - front wheel drive - hits ice - wheels start to spin as I brake... ABS thinks - chuffin hell - I had better kick in and make things a whole lot worse... and frighten the S*hit out the driver to boot - I actually thought I was going to overrun the blo*dy junction - ABS is scary when not expected..

ABS doesnt always kick in with locked wheels, it can with slipping wheels that are not fully locked, and its ferociousness does vary from one car to the next. In general it is fairly acceptable to suggest you probably are going too fast for conditions if it kicks in. My 306 ABS kicks in FAR too early and makes the car virtually unstoppable from about 5mph in even a hint of slush. Approach the same junction again with the fuse pulled and you have no problems stopping whatsoever. While in proper snow and ice conditions I would personally pull the ABS fuse to regain full car control, this is a dangerous thing to do if you're driving on a mixture of wet/snowy/slippy roads.

Still, I'm biting and the trolls are now going to get me - maybe I should get that coffee!

do you drive a stressed as you type? the thread ABS will kick in at any moment! 😉

neverfastenuff - there's something in the username tells me you were going too fast....

Driving Instructor Mr Smee has kicked my ABS in...
Coffeeking, thanks for making sense of the situation, I have learned, but the great thing is, I can do it all again tomorrow morning, yippee.. 😯

Loser.

I should mention that ABS sensor systems vary vastly, some cars only monitor the 2 front wheels, some monitor all 4 but only treat the two rear as one entity etc.

Likewise some ABS systems "actuate" or pulse all channels at the same time, some just the fronts, some do wheel-at-a-time control, depending on how new and advanced they are. The worst are cheap-car ABS systems that, IME, tend to just assume some wheel is slipping and start pulsing one end of the car rather than one channel. Decent ones, BMW from memory, seem to do channel at a time and are very sure-footed. I'm not sure any manufacturer specifies what sort of ABS they fit though, without digging through the manufacturers manuals.

Definitely not a comment directly on the OP but this is maybe another point in favour of resitting driving tests every five years or so. ABS and the way it feels was covered in my driving lessons when we did emergency stops and from memory it was in the theory test too.

The notion that someone can sit a test at 17 then go on and have a lifetime of incident free driving is absurd.

I drive a 04 Honda Civic, so I would expect it to be a somewhat decent ABS set-up

For what it's worth, I remember reading a news item recently that said a very large percentage of people get freaked out the first time ABS kicks in. In many cases, the experience is such a shock that the drives immediate reaction is to release pressure from the brake pedal, thus exasperating the problem.

Neverfastenuf - ABS will kick in in a heartbeat even at speeds lower than 10 mph with very little brake force if you driving on sheet ice.

All this commentary about you breaking too hard etc, well yes, maybe, but heck we're not all Michael Schumacher and that, after all, is what we have ABS for.

Take heart my friend - you arrived home safe. Which is surely the moral of this tale!

I have a newer Civic and the ABS seems more eager than my other 2 cars.
I'd echo the you were driving too fast for the conditions though. Mine came on at least 4 times this morning at 10mph or less due to ooh snow and ice.

neverfastenuff - A broken ABS ring can cause the effect you described.

You braked too hard for the conditions, the ABS kicked in. That's what it does

Edited to add:

Symptoms of a broken ABS ring [url= http://www.reluctorrings.com/symptoms.php ]HERE[/url]

I had faulty ABS sensors on my car last year - car failed MOT because of it, as brake warning light was coming on intermittently.

It is true though.

When I learned to drive 1981 - cars were much more simple - no air bags - no crumple zones - no plastic bumpers - no disc brakes all round - gear stick would come out in your hand while selecting reverse - bulbs blew every 5 minutes - and best of all - no driver aids ....

A broken ABS ring can cause the effect you described.

or, indeed, "Broken ABS can cause a ring effect"

And your point is?

jfeb, ([i]A broken ABS ring can cause the effect you described)

Whatever that may be, Thanks.

(Phil. mind if I hijack...)
jfeb...what is this broken ABS ring you mention...?
My Rover 25 occasionally makes a hell of a racket when braking, any braking on any surface in any condition, & I feel a really course vibration through the pedal. Easing off on the pedal gets rid of it.
Brakes work fine, pads ok etc. Just this grating pulsing feel through the pedal now & then...

Hello PT.

Jfeb,
ABS light may flash on and off
Noise occurs when braking at slow speeds
Pedal fluctuation (like brake judder).

Once I got back into normal traffic my brakes behaved perfectly and silently, my first foray with ABS so cannot tell if the symptoms were caused by broken ring - I will be having the car serviced shortly and will mention this issue - thanks.

The ABS ring is what the ABS sensor uses to determine if the wheel has locked. Have a look at this link: http://www.reluctorrings.com/symptoms.php

I have never changed one but have heard it isn't too bad a DIY job apart from the fact they are delicate and easy to break when replacing.

neverfastenuff - your garage should know what it is 😉

If the abs sensor is broken the ABS light comes on and stays on.

Christ - do you people know nothing about driving.....

Not heard much from ABS since he left 5ive, glad to hear he's still around.

Smee, how long you been driving ? do you drive a tank ? is your driving perfect ? do you drive in Nevada or somewhere ??

I went to the website Jfeb directed us to, and it clearly states "ABS light may flash on and off" the operative word being 'MAY' so therefore not necessarily so..

Cheers jfeb.
ABS light does come on now & again.

Smee...no. Plainly you are the all knowing & I bow to thee. 😮

Possibly more scary is the fact that you've never practised a full on emergency stop ...........

I was driving down a hill over Cannock Chase today as slow as the car would go, and to gently touch the brake pedal activated the ABS, it was scary going round the corners with cars coming the other way!

This was on compacted snow.

You dont always have to be driving too fast for the ABS to activate, its just useless in snow.

Traction Control was useful though.

Paul, Ask Paul Aston if I got him all the way home (my car wouldnt turn into his side road) Ha Ha

I experienced my ABS this morning* and a fair few times in the past. Not a problem. On my car you can see the ring - its toothed like a fine cog? (with the caliper/disc assembly off) with the plug in ABS sensor.

* thick virgin snow middle of nowhere on a wide road, needed to turn left but thought I'd drive past first to see if carpark doors open yet. Car stopped, just not on a button 😉

Neverfastenuff - Been driving for 15 years, drive a Yaris or a Passat, drive mostly in the Scottish Borders (8" of snow here today) or Edinburgh, but have driven pretty much everywhere and I can drive perfectly when I want to.

Smee,
SOOoooo, you have a roller skate on one foot, and a slipper on the other, no wonder you need such driving skills,

Are you stoned?

[i]It only kicks in when your wheels are doing different speeds due to skidding. [/i]

what b*llocks.

ABS is anti-lock braking. It works when your wheels lock up under braking

I think you're thinking of traction control there matey

No, but the mention of a Yaris (roller skate) - getting stoned seems like a good idea. 🙄

johnhoo - how does your car know that you are skidding?

it's magic

unlike your patter.

It can hear you screaming.. 😡

It only kicks in when your wheels are doing different speeds due to skidding.

what b*llocks.

ABS is anti-lock braking. It works when your wheels lock up under braking

I think you're thinking of traction control there matey

How does the car know that the wheels are locked sherlock?

Anyway, what would of happened to the OP if he didn't have ABS, thats right folks he would of skidded straight on in to the nearest whatever.

:rollseyes:

miaow

Just a thought, this isn't actually ABS we are talking about. Its stability control ot traction control. The car brakes the wheels independently to keep the car in a straight line. Sounds like the car was trying to keep you on the road.

Capt Cook - wtf you talking about?

that's what I said

The OP was talking about ABS - anti lock braking. Smee & friends seem to have confused that with traction/stability control

Just a thought, this isn't actually ABS we are talking about. Its stability control ot traction control. The car brakes the wheels independently to keep the car in a straight line.

Nope, we're talking about ABS. Traction/stability control uses the brakes and sometimes parts of the drivetrain to apply power or braking to the wheels independantly to keep you straight while driving. ABS does nothing other than stop your wheels locking and allow you to steer round things (theoretically) when you slam on.

johnhoo - you trippin dude?

and just to prove that I too can copy & paste from wikipedia:

[i]An anti-lock braking system, or ABS (from the German, Antiblockiersystem) is a safety system which prevents the wheels on a motor vehicle from locking while braking.

A rotating road wheel allows the driver to maintain steering control under heavy braking by preventing a skid and allowing the wheel to continue interacting tractively with the road surface as directed by driver steering inputs. While ABS offers improved vehicle control in some circumstances, it can also present disadvantages including increased braking distance on slippery surfaces such as ice, packed snow, gravel, steel plates and bridges, or anything other than dry pavement. ABS has also been demonstrated to create a false sense of security in drivers, who may drive more aggressively as a result.[citation needed]

Since initial widespread use in production cars, anti-lock braking systems have evolved considerably. Recent versions not only prevent wheel lock under braking, but also electronically control the front-to-rear brake bias. This function, depending on its specific capabilities and implementation, is known as electronic brakeforce distribution (EBD), traction control system (TCS or ASR), emergency brake assist (BA, EBA or HBA), or electronic stability control (ESP, ESC or DSC).[/i]

so according to the last paragraph, smee is right. sort of. oh bugger.

I think my Audi had something called ESP. If you went into a corner and it skidded it would break the wheels individually (the ones required) to bring the car under control and get you round the corner. Ferrari & Lambo's have adjustable intevention for how much the car will keep you on the road.

Linking this back to original post, the sensors on the wheels when driving on ice can act straighten the car whilst breaking so traction control is helping to keep the car straight whilst it is decelerating.

yeah man, tripping on the euphoria of getting home from work in one piece thanks to my ABS, EBC, DSC, ESP or whatever it was that stopped me fishtailing like the car in front of me...

tune in, turn on, drop out, man

Capt Cook - Member

I think my Audi had something called ESP. If you went into a corner and it skidded it would break the wheels individually (the ones required) to bring the car under control and get you round the corner. Ferrari & Lambo's have adjustable intevention for how much the car will keep you on the road.

Yeah that's what my Verso has, think its more to do with under and over steer though.

But my Honda has ABS and EBD , but it still scared me at 10mph, so cars can be clever, but when those gizmos come on unexpectedly it is possible for the driver to overreact.
Tiff Needall drove a Lambo with all the gizmos turned off on a snow circuit and controlled it beautifully, he then turned all the safety gizmos on and the car would not even accelerate - that demonstrated perfectly the safety devices that help us all drive.

If the abs sensor is broken the ABS light comes on and stays on.

Smee - No one mentioned the abs sensor. We were talking about the abs ring, which may or may not have caused the OP's brake pedal judder.

Christ - do you people know nothing about driving.....

LOL. Just read what is being posted better.

that's what I said

The OP was talking about ABS - anti lock braking. Smee & friends seem to have confused that with traction/stability control

At least read my post, how would a car know if the wheels were locked?

Ok, I'll spell it out for you, if all four wheels are locked then the speedo shows zero m/kph, if the speedo shows zero then the car thinks its stationary, how can the car then activate the ABS?

Go on, I reckon you can work out the rest for yourself 😉

jfeb - thank you. you have just saved me replacing the cv joint on my passat.... 😀 Cheers,

ABS is great in the wet or dry even and utterly useless IMO in the snow.
Use the handbrake a bit as well this lets the tyres dig in a bit helping the car to stop.
Only for the experienced though.

ABS works fine in the snow simulates what we were taught do on our advanced driving many moons ago. One thing we told never to do was grab the handbrake.

I am surprised by the general lack of ignorance about this subject shown on this site.
Basically ABS is a system as described that has sensors on the wheels to detects locked wheels. The ABS is linked to a pump that pulses the brakes to prevent full lockup, thereby maintaining steering control.

Since its introduction, various manufacturers have linked other systems to ABS to make cars safer. My Audi A2 for example has accelerometers and steering angle sensors as well as ABS wheel sensors. The car uses the ABS system to prevent wheel spin, ie ABS system is used to give traction control. It will also use the ABS system to prevent sideways drift and skidding. Technically this isn't ABS, but the system is so integrated on modern cars that the ABS wheel sensors do more that provide straight forward ABS.

Bloody surprised you can drive for more than a couple of years and not use ABS. Also surprised how many on here clearly do not RTFM.