[Closed] A wise move or asking for trouble?

Wise.

The sooner we can rid society of the fetid cancer that is religion, the better. This is just the start.

Wise for security reasons. Why don't they make them a bit more colourful as well. They probably wouldn't look so intimidating then.

Why don't they make them a bit more colourful as well?

How about [url= ]this one[/url]?

IIRC France are trying to do the same. Their upper house rejected it, but it is going back through and sounds like it will be passed.

In my opinion this can't be a bad thing, but I am sure if it was tried here there would be all sorts of "human rights" mumbo jumbo that stops it 🙄 but then I suppose each to their own.

Does not actually say in the Koran that women should cover their faces.Still why let that stop you going off the deep end higgo,eh?

The big opposition isn't so much civil liberty or religious freedom IMO, it's as they say in the story, it'll lead to some women being effectively imprisoned- "You can't go out looking like that". Not against the idea in principle but it does stand to harm those who're already vulnerable and I don't like that much. I do like the way that in order to avoid the repression of women, they're telling them what they can and can't wear and threatening them with prison if they don't comply 😉

Incidentally, this law also bans the wearing of motorbike helmets and full face DH helmets, and putting a buff or scarf over your face because it's cold, and those daft facemasks some commuters like to wear.

Crazy. No reason to ban other than fear. People should be able to choose what they wear.

Does not actually say in the Koran that women should cover their faces.

As an aside, it appears the bible pretty much outlaws technical cycling clothing, certainly anything in a merino/polyester mix...

[b]Leviticus 19:19[/b]... nor shall you wear a garment of cloth made of two kinds of material.

That's me going straight to hell then.

You cant go in a bank with a crash helmet, unless you work for securicor,

Youre not welcome in a naturist beach unless youre naked, so whats the difference.

And as for protecting woman how does we are going to solve the problem of people telling you what to wear by telling you what to wear work? Let woman choose and then deal separatly with any woman thats not allowed to choose by thier husband under normal don't be a dick to your wife laws... Its just fear of people that are different.

Only around 30 women wear this kind of veil in Belgium, out of a Muslim population of around half a million.

Big security threat.

Not saying right or wrong here.

No of course not. Why would you express an opinion tyger ?

.......when all you have to do, is post threads on a regular basis which stoke up the islamophobic bigots.

It's a pretty bad article to be honest.

[i]The law would ban any clothing that obscures the identity of the wearer in places like parks and on the street. No-one voted against it.[/i]

Why not just leave it at that? It's not a law specifically against Burkas. People are probably more concerned about youths with hoods up and scarfs across their faces.

This really pisses me off. Of all the things that need addressed to help people get used to the idea that someone from a different religion isn't your enemy is this the best people can manage? Its like that shit to do with banning the tower bit on mosques that was on hear a while back. Why the ****? Just let people choose. Aaarrrggghhh!

They should also deal with the catholic anti contraception nonsense, by making all catholic’s hand out condoms to strangers when in public places, although probably best to keep them away from children.

Its just fear of people that are different.

+1

Every country has its own laws and we are all meant to obey them, Belgium made that law and it should be obeyed by foreigners.

[i]Why the ****? Just let people choose[/i]

They did. They chose to ban it, along with anything obscuring identity.

People never look at the bigger picture...

This will impede peoples ability to Ninje!

Ninjas are a victim of this prejudice

The law would ban any clothing that obscures the identity of the wearer in places like parks and on the street. No-one voted against it.

project - Member

Every country has its own laws and we are all meant to obey them, Belgium made that law and it should be obeyed by foreigners.

😕 So this law is aimed at foreigners then ? What about Belgium burka wearers........... won't they be affected ?

....how peculiar 😕

lolz tiger

"As stated, the Q’ran just says that a woman should dress modestly. But then, extreme Islamists also use the exortation to kill unbelievers as an excuse to murder Christians, when Jesus is spoken of as a prophet of God in the Q'ran"

In fact, the Qu'ran specifically names christians among others as "people of the book" and specifically NOT unbelievers or infidels. Which just goes to show.

project - "Every country has its own laws and we are all meant to obey them, Belgium made that law and it should be obeyed by [i]foreigners[/i]."

Whoops, you may have just carelessly let something slip there.

"As stated, the Q’ran just says that a woman should dress modestly. But then, extreme Islamists also use the exortation to kill unbelievers as an excuse to murder Christians, when Jesus is spoken of as a prophet of God in the Q'ran"

So the ban, although nothing to do with Islamophobia by the looks of things, should be welcomed as a move against extremism in Islam?

Jesus aint so nice.
Just look what he did to that fig tree,It was just minding its own business,when who strolls along but Jesus in a grumpy mood.....

Poor thing 🙁

i think that whilst some women are forced to wear them and are being oppressed by bigotted husbands the majority of women (esp from where I am originally from blackburn/burnley) they wear them to be deliberately antagonistic. Tbh this doesnt bother me that much but I do think that its strange and does not do any favours to the process of integrating into our society. What really gets me is if they demand to wear one and go to court to defend their right to where one like that teacher did. Thats pathetic, I would get fired if I demanded to wear a balaclava to work every day yet some people deem that a similar thing is acceptable in English society. In my opinion its not. If you want to wear one fine but dont expect the same rights to work as everyone else if they cant even see your frickin face you nutter!

Seeing people in that garb doesn't bother me. Never seen anyone wearing that gear behaving other than as a decent human being.

What is bothering is that there is a group of men in this society who are so unable to control their lust, that the sight of an uncovered face is a sexual signal. Maybe we should lock them up?

My wife grew up in Kuwait.Hair was covered,as per the Quran,the whole hibjab thing was looked on as pointless and err "willy waving." Higgo,first few books of the bible also says you should lock the wife in the shed when the painters are in!

Higgo,first few books of the bible also says you should lock the wife in the shed when the painters are in!

I'll break the bad news to Mrs Higgo tonight but it [u]is[/u] the word of god, after all.

Did they have sheds in biblical times?

Fantastic, if they want to wear a burka then they can happily do so back in burkaland.
Wouldnt happen in the uk though due to the pc / hand wringing liberal types.

dmiller - Member
Crazy. No reason to ban other than fear. People should be able to choose what they wear.

+1

Another pointless attack on religious freedom by vote-hunting politicians.

well yeah just ban it, so now girls that use to wear a burak won't be able to get out of the house anymore... Smart move isn't it...

Why can't they get out of the house?

Fantastic, if they want to wear a burka then they can happily do so back in burkaland.

I would get fired if I demanded to wear a balaclava to work every day yet some people deem that a similar thing is acceptable in English society.

Belgium made that law and it should be obeyed by foreigners.

Some very small minded people in the world. I cant believe that something like this could cause such fear and hysteria in a modern world.

Tyger; Hard line Muslims would stop their wives/daughters leaving the house unveiled,in theory.

hey dmiller, like i said in the post i dont really care if they want to wear one and im certainly not afraid of someone wearing one! I wear a dress or sometomes nothin at all when im off my face at Glasto and everyone is free to wear what they like, but I was just saying that I really dont agree with them wearing one at places of work, and especially when teachers or their pupils demand to wear one. WTF is the point in a teacher pupil relationship (or any worked based relationship for that matter!) where you can't see the other persons face? The ban in Belgium has arisen partly because of a case like this and I agree with that she shouldnt be allowed to teach with one on. The ban is overkill and exacerbates a situation that is mainly propagated by extremist men whose ideas are detached from mainstream Islam, but it doesnt mean that because some people want to to do this we should as a society pander to the requests of some religious minorities demanding special treatment and allow it in schools and hospitals and organise special rotas so they can avoid contact with men! If you cant do the job then p**s off

duckman, sounds very oppressive and excessive

Tyger do you watch the news at all? 😉

In the bible it says ,if one of your family attempts to join another religion.
When they should be instantly put to death

Where have we heard this kind of thing ? 😕

Sounds like somebody needs a reformation 😉

Belgium's shit anyway. A few chocolates and some beer. Oh and maybe a bit of lace. Other than that there's **** all there.

I woke up in Antwerp once. Never again.

I think this discriminates against phantom flan flingers too but all the do gooders are too busy sticking up for the muslimists to bother about that.

[img] [/img]

Libertie pour les flingers Belgique

It was cycling that led women in the UK to fight for the right to wear 'rational clothing' i.e. trousers on a bike. I resent anyone telling women to cover themselves up, women in Britain won that battle 100 years ago. If they were telling white women to cover their faces there'd be outrage. It's only because they're brown/dark/different that the normal rules of equality are put on hold. This sort of relativistic nonsense has reactionary consequences and it has done for organisations like Liberty and the SWP. I say ban it, I am not 'culturaly enriched' by the public display of the oppression and humiliation of women.

+1 dyna ti!!!

If they were telling white women to cover their faces there'd be outrage. It's only because they're brown/dark/different that the normal rules of equality are put on hold.

You seem to be confusing the concept of letting the women wear what they want (they may be genuinely religious and want to wear a burka) and be made to wear it. This stupid law confuses it too.

In the bible it says ,if one of your family attempts to join another religion.
When they should be instantly put to death

It is the word of god and must be obeyed. Actually the goddists themselves don't seem to agree on whether the bible is the word of god (and correct in it's entirety) or just a general guide.

Belgium's shit anyway. A few chocolates and some beer. Oh and maybe a bit of lace. Other than that there's **** all there. I woke up in Antwerp once. Never again.

Antwerp has (I'm told) the best red light district in Europe.

In my opinion this can't be a bad thing, but I am sure if it was tried here there would be all sorts of "human rights" mumbo jumbo that stops it 🙄

I still think the point has been missed that it's a ban on any clothing obscuring identity. I'd say Muslim women wearing burkas are a very small part that happens to be encompassed by it. Whether it was intended for Muslims but put under another guise I can't tell you. But I think it's just possibly more likely that the Muslim community, and the media have have taken it as something else. Or is it more likely that all the admin, time, and beaurocracy was meant for 30 women?

Whether it was intended for Muslims but put under another guise I can't tell you.

The law’s chief sponsor, Daniel Bacquelaine, said the burqa defied the principles of an emancipated society that respects the rights of all. He described the burqa as a “political sign first and foremost” and an affirmation of values contrary to fundamental values.

Bacquelaine says banning the veil is also a security measure against potential Muslim radicals. He says it is not intended to stigmatize the Muslim community, but to promote women's rights.

http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/religion/Belgium-Moves-Closer-to-Banning-Face-Covering-Veils-91752349.html

Or is it more likely that all the admin, time, and beaurocracy was meant for 30 women?

You're aware that the French- and Flemish-speaking parties cannot co-operate on any topic apart from Muslim-bashing, that parliament is just about to be dissolved again because there was an attempt to downgrade the status of French in Brussels, that after the 2007 elections there was no government for almost a year...? This kind of pathetic xenophobic crap is the only thing that they can agree on.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2010/0430/1224269369721.html
http://www.france24.com/en/20100429-francophone-parties-block-divisive-pro-flemish-bill

Honestly, who cares what other people wear? I mean really, why would you get even slightly bothered by it? If some people want to dress like this, then good luck to them. There are enough problems without worrying about this sort of shit.

Oh, and Tyger? Careful, your prejudice is showing again...

Despite everything.
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/15/world/la-fg-bicycle-man15-2010mar15

I'm not religious but I do respect laws of countries I visit.

I don't agree with the values of a lot of religions, I don't hate ppl just disagree with covering head to toe.

I do not want to live in a world controlled by religion. Too late...

Islam, China yeah add it to the list of fears but I think we have reasons for the fear.

Already the caused divisions in the Europe, what next WW3?

As a Muslim woman living in Belgium, I have to say that I welcome this ban. I mean, that bloody thing gets in the way all the bloody time, it obscures my peripheral vision whilst driving, and it's proper bastard hot in Summer. And black is so drab. And the money I've spent on beauty products; no bugger ever gets to see the results!

And I went on holiday to Ibiza with some of the girls, but I mean who would ever believe us?

[img] [/img]

Love it. I might go out and treat meself to a nice new lippy...

LOL @ Talkemada! 🙂

nickc- no prejudice or racism I assure you, just saw it on the BBC website and wanted to see what people thought - I hope that's okay and that I haven't infringed any rules?

Wishing you a lovely weekend 🙂

I think the Belgians have got it right, I don't care if its interpreted as part of the religion by certain factions IMO it oppressive to women especially when you often see their husbands walking along side there wifes who are wearing Burka and they are in jeans & tshirt. Ain't right.

I hope that's okay and that I haven't infringed any rules?

No, you haven't done that. In fact, you have stuck to your own personal rule of, wherever possible, to post a thread about Muslims.

Which usually has the desired effect, ie, it rakes the gutter and releases the inevitable anti-Muslim bigotry and prejudices.

And your mission as a pro-Israeli Christian fundamentalist is accomplished. Jesus [i]will be[/i] proud of you.

How can you be a Christian and pro Israel?

You go figure duckman. Our friend tyger is a Christian fundamentalist who is fanatically pro-Israeli.

Mind you the US is full of like minded people, including their former president.

"I don't care if its interpreted as part of the religion by certain factions IMO it oppressive to women"

So we agree that you shouldn't tell women what they can and can't wear then. No, wait...

[i]nickc- no prejudice or racism I assure you[/i]

Really? Your previous posts on the matter of Islam would suggest the complete opposite.

Leviticus 19:19... nor shall you wear a garment of cloth made of two kinds of material.

Which is why my wardrobe contains only clothing entirely made of rubber.

Liar,what about the buckles!

for tyger, the type of Christian that makes me side with the lions:

Well you say you only watch documentaries
And that bad cold you’ve got, that’s the flu
And that book that you foisted upon me
I’ll never read it, will you?

Did you play in the Garden of Eden?
Were the goalkeeper’s gloves to you tossed?
‘Cos it seems to me you’re the reason
You’re the reason why Paradise Lost.

Was it you who invented the school run
At the Laboratoires Garnier, Gaul?
And is it you who’s to stone for the motorway cone
Barry Venison and Davina McCall?

Did you play in the Garden of Eden?
Were the goalkeeper’s gloves to you tossed?
‘Cos it seems to me you’re the reason
You’re the reason why Paradise Lost

Ah regain it for me Rodney
Well we’ve both seen your personalised reg plates
And it’s not the worst crime I agree
But we both know full well that it really should spell
T-W-A-T-O-N-E.

Did you play in the Garden of Eden?
Were the goalkeeper’s gloves to you tossed?
‘Cos it seems to me you’re the reason
You’re the reason why Paradise Lost

it oppressive to women

Oh, wait...

[i]That's why we're going to make a law that says if that if they don't dress how we want them to, we're going to put them in prison.[/i]

No. It's against the full covering of the face. I agree with your response to what I put earlier, but not this.

ernie_lynch, nickc, Rusty Spanner and anyone else reading this thread that I've caused offense to - please accept my apologies - I'm very sorry.

I will not post any more threads on here that relate to Muslim or Islamic issues in the future. I'm not anti Muslim or pro Israeli or vice versa. I have a few concerns over one or two aspects of Islam but really that's my problem and this is not the place to air them.

ernie, if we were to ever meet in a pub and chat over a few drinks (my shout) you'd hopefully find that I'm not the person you paint me to be - that said, I can understand where you're drawing your conclusions from and for that I also apologise.

I'll try and keep from contributing on here in the future.

Tyger bowing out with tail firmly between legs!

[i]".....anyone else reading this thread that I've caused offense to - please accept my apologies - I'm very sorry."[/i]

Erm, you haven't caused me any offence at all 😕 I just don't agree with your obsessive fear/dislike of Islam. And as long as you keep posting threads which stoke up Islamophobia, which I consider to be apart from anything else, a highly divisive and dangerous recent development, I will probably continue to counter them.

[i]"ernie, if we were to ever meet in a pub and chat over a few drinks (my shout) you'd hopefully find that I'm not the person you paint me to be - that said, I can understand where you're drawing your conclusions from and for that I also apologise."[/i]

I don't paint you to be anything. I simply point out your Christian fundamentalist and pro-Israeli sentiments - two aspects about yourself which you have freely expressed on here. I think it's sometimes important to see where someone's coming from, when considering their motivations - don't you ?

I do agree with your suggestion that your concern over Islam is 'your problem' though. I hope you manage to deal with it. I'm much more concerned with bigots, racists, homophobes, and other purveyors of intolerance.......and that's [i]everybody's[/i] problem.

[i]"I'll try and keep from contributing on here in the future."[/i]

Why ? Can't you contribute on here without ranting on about muslims ?

It's clearly only going to make more women want to wear the hijab as an act of defiance.

It's clearly only going to make more women want to wear the hijab as an act of defiance.

I'm wearing a crotchless hijab right now.

tyger - good lord man stick to your guns & dont pander to the pc limp wristed liberal hand wringers (seems to be an unusually high amount on this forum) who take offence on others behalf to anything they dont agree with!

Many people have issues with the topic here and many dont, good job everyone is different eh?

tyger - good lord man stick to your guns & dont pander to the pc limp wristed liberal hand wringers (seems to be an unusually high amount on this forum) who take offence on others behalf to anything they dont agree with!

Yeah it's shame there aren't more BNP supporters on here eh?

......who take offence on others behalf

Ooh, time for this quote, I believe :

[b][i] When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.[/b]

- Martin Niemöller, 1892-1984[/i]

.

And maybe this one :

[b][i]"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"[/i][/b]

But no, you're right - I'm not gay/black/lesbian/fat/muslim.

Although you could be perhaps forgiven for sometimes thinking that I was. I am however, an immigrant.

tyger, I'm sorry if I insulted or offended you without providing an adequate explanation of why I felt it necessary to do so.

It's just that you seem to find it very easy to point out the defects in everyone else's world view without ever being able to admit to any faults in your own, fundamentalist Christian outlook.

Now, if you wish to discuss this matter properly, rather than just dropping a turd into the pool and running away, I'd be perfectly happy to do so.

he he, I wondered how long it would be before gus played his Godwin's Top Trump 😆

I am however, an immigrant.

Dirty foreigner! [url=

the bugger back![/url]

As someone from a Muslim background, I don't believe any woman should feel forced to cover her face, ever. I live in an area with a large Muslim population. There has been an increase in the number of women wearing full face coverings, since the recent conflicts in the Middle East. I sense this is partly at least due to a backlash at what many Muslims see as the demonisation of Islam, in the West. The evidence of this is quite apparent on here. What was it the other day; Muslims breeding faster than any other groups, Britain about to be swamped by Muslims, Islam becoming the dominant ideology, Mohammed being the most popular boy's name, and all sorts of other nonsense. Total paranoid tabloid-fuelled irrational prejudice. Christ on a bike; some of you really can't think for yourselves, can you?

Within my family, women will wear head scarves, but mostly not the full on ninja gear. Some of the older women, and those not born in the UK, will wear the face coverings outside. The younger women mostly just wear a head scarf, some don't even bother with that.

My view is that it's the misogynist interpretation of certain aspects of Islamic teaching, that create the subjugation of women, something to which I'm totally opposed. Muslim women do struggle for equality, this is true. But things are slowly changing. Like they did in Europe, as Fundamental Christianity gradually lost it's grip in an increasingly secular society, so the same will happen with Islam.

Islam is a relatively 'new' religion, and has mainly been practiced within a relatively confined area, whereas Christianity and Judaism have spread the Globe. As those religions adapted and changed to local 'requirements', so too will Islam. It will take time, and there will undoubtedly be problems, and clashes between fundamentalists and moderates. This is already happening, resulting in some of the terrible acts of violence that have been committed towards innocent people. But the Reformation in England caused terrible events, as did schisms within the Church all over Europe, as well as attempts by Rome to bring order to the 'Catholic' world. No-one expected the Spanish Inquisition...

Islam is going through a difficult time, as did Judaism and Christianity, as it makes the transition from traditional to modern forms of society. Not helped by it's demonisation by Western Imperialists..

Whilst I don't agree with women feeling they are obliged to cover their faces, their emancipation needs to come from within, if it is to work. Imposing spurious 'identity concealment' laws won't really help; you can't enforce ideological will upon people without expecting some sort of resistance.

Increasing numbers of young Muslim women in Britain are casting off the veil, and not wearing any form of head covering. Many are adopting increasingly 'Western' styles of dress, and creating their own style. This is even being adopted by other cultural groups, proving what a great mixed up nation this is.

Things will sort themselves out.They always do. And you can give them a helping hand, but should never force the issue. Leave folk to find their own way.

I wondered how long it would be before gus played his Godwin's Top Trump

Well trailmonkey - how close were you ?

It is of course not surprising, that when discussing intolerance towards minorities, the example of nazi intolerance towards minorities is given. The lessons which are there to be learnt should never be forgotten. That at least, would guarantee that something good came out of the gassing of 6 million Jews.

And of course Godwin's Law is there [u]not to stop[/u] making appropriate comparisons with the nazis, but to do the complete opposite, ie, to maintain and protect appropriate comparisons and encourage their use. To make willy-nilly inappropriate comparisons, simply waters down the message and robs us of the ability to learn from the mistakes which were made.

Something which I have no doubt, is completely lost on you trailmonkey.

.

Dirty foreigner!

Indeed I am. My father originally came to Britain during WW2 to help you lot to fight the nazis, despite the fact that WW2 had nothing to do with him or his country. Whilst here, he met my mother, herself the daughter of immigrants (she's British born). After the end of WW2 and the defeat of nazi Germany, they left Britain and settled back in his home country. However they returned to Britain when I was a small child.