I wish I had the opportunity at work to allow me to have the school holidays off I haven't hit summer holidays rostered leave for over ten years. But in 2019 I can have two weeks off in summer holidays 🙂 unless I get moved stations again due to cut backs doh...
And the childcare in the holidays costs more than a bloody holiday would 🙁
I'm married to a teacher and the amount we save on child care during summer far outweighs the extra cost for holidays!
Yes, but I don't have kids so get the worst of both worlds!
Excellent result the law has it right and I pretty much agree with Stoner's points on this thread.
*taps sarcastometer. unexpectedly showing no signs, or it's bust*
Our school and a lot of other local ones are trying to work something out, one school booked all it's 5 inset day to run 5 in a row in June which gave parents a chance to grab a cheap holiday, ours extended the Summer Hols by 2 days to make them the full 7 weeks, the last week being not quite the full bum rape summer hols rates and Easter is two weeks after the long bank holiday rather than the week before and after.
That's grand, until you've got kids at two different schools and you end up where they've shifted the easter holidays so much that they're actually not off at the same time...
My OH is an overworked underpaid teacher too, and I'd imagine what most teacher's are concerned about is that the schools (which are now mostly acadamies, and desperate to meet ofstead targets to get funding) will insist teachers do lots of extra planning for each and every child that's going to be taken out of class.
My OH is an overworked underpaid teacher too, and I'd imagine what most teacher's are concerned about is that the schools (which are now mostly acadamies, and desperate to meet ofstead targets to get funding) will insist teachers do lots of extra planning for each and every child that's going to be taken out of class.
Teachers - always me, me, me! 😉
My OH is an overworked underpaid teacher too
Well I guess she can take a holiday during term time now, given that everyone is agreed that kids missing a week or two of education is no big deal, right?
Private schools effectively ban term time holidays and it seems virtually no-one tries to take them.
I'm not quite sure what conclusions to draw from this but it's not 'parents with kids at private school can afford the higher holiday cost'. I suspect it maybe something to do with placing a higher value on education.
I can't help but feel that it's the teachers that will be the losers from this and this will filter down.
Junkyard - lazarusBlah, blah, blah...
Thatcher would be proud of the way you ignore society and think only of yourself where yourself means your wallet,
And if the evil old bitch hadn't decimated Britain's manufacturing base, perhaps all us hard-grafting manual workers would still be able to afford holidays out of term time.
That is just laughable
Holidays can be really educative, Junkyard and I find it surprising that you find the idea laughable.
On holidays with junior, cycling as it happens, we've visited WW1 battlefields, the bridge too far, the dam buster dams, the iron curtain, check point Charlie, the Rhur valley, various bombed out and rebuilt towns around Europe, a U-Boat, numerous museums and galeries, the Normandy landing beaches, a concentration camp (from the outside, kids aren't allowed in), Aix la Chapelle (Charlemagne), le Mur de L'Atlantique, Bosworth Field, London, a Napoleonic battlefield, Pilgrim routes and lots of religious sites, a viking village, medieval towns and castles, pre-historic sites... .
This year he is taking both a French Bac and German Arbiture specializing in history - can you see the link? I really think he learned a lot on holidays and more importantly was inspired to learn more.
I suspect it maybe something to do with placing a higher value on education.
Tosh.
What's with the idea that education can only be had in school?
But you have to also legislate for the "unreasonable parents" who will take them for 2 weeks at a more critical time or will will take the proverbial.
The original concept was 'at the headteacher's discretion'. So an assessment was made for each pupil as to whether or not it would be detrimental. Seems the best way to handle it, to me.
Private schools effectively ban term time holidays and it seems virtually no-one tries to take them.
If you we're paying tens of thousands per year for private schooling you aren't going to take them out!
Private schools holidays are longer too, so they are on holiday when state schools aren't.
The original concept was 'at the headteacher's discretion'. So an assessment was made for each pupil as to whether or not it would be detrimental. Seems the best way to handle it, to me.
Yes, and I would add " or benficial" after "detrimental".
The original concept was 'at the headteacher's discretion'. So an assessment was made for each pupil as to whether or not it would be detrimental. Seems the best way to handle it, to me.
^ This - no-one is advocating a free-for-all approach, just a return to the previous system of discretion.
Yes, and I would add " or benficial" after "detrimental".
That's too subjective though - children from less well off background could get just as much benefit to their mental health from a week at the seaside as a well travelled child would get from a museum/adventure type trip.
HoratioHufnagel - Member
My OH is an overworked underpaid teacher too, and I'd imagine what most teacher's are concerned about is that the schools (which are now mostly acadamies, and desperate to meet ofstead targets to get funding) will insist teachers do lots of extra planning for each and every child that's going to be taken out of class.
Me too, until I told them to stick it up their...
Overworked and underpaid? Go and do something else!
Fair point.
My niece was allowed to come and visit us from the USA during term time. She visited plenty of historical sites and was given an assignment to write it up and present it to the class. Given that most of her classmates will probably never leave their state, it was probably highly beneficial.
no-one is advocating a free-for-all approach, just a return to the previous system of discretion
The precedent has now been set however to do it without permission. Which renders the headteachers decision useless.
What's with the idea that education can only be had in school?
The idea that kids 'learn' while on a holiday that consists of skiing or swimming in a pool/playing on the beach (which is what 90% of these holidays are) is just deluded.
The idea that kids 'learn' while on a holiday that consists of skiing or swimming in a pool/playing on the beach (which is what 90% of these holidays are)
Says who?
There are two things being discussed here:
1) Is it reasonable to let kids out of school for say family reasons or to have quality holiday that will be beneficial?
2) It it reasonable to let parents have complete control over whether or not their kids can take time off school?
3) Can a beach holiday be beneficial?
4) Can a skiing holiday be beneficial?
Re point 1 - my niece was only allowed to come *on condition* that she made it into an educational trip. Had she spent the whole time in the pool it would not have met those criteria.
Re point 4 - I never went on a skiing holiday as a kid, and never been as an adult. And I do feel I missed out on some good experiences. It's quite difficult to arrange skiing in school holidays, isn't it?
lunge - MemberUnless we're talking about a significant percentage of parents taking their kids out of class, but is that the case?
It's not now, no. But this recent ruling may well mean that is does become the case.
I'd find that hard to believe - prior to, maybe 3 years ago I think things were simpler - you just gave a note to Teacher - "little Timmy won't be in next week, we're going to Torremolinos" and Teacher said "lucky you" - the end. Classes were generally pretty full and kids disappearing off on hols tended to be on the last couple of days of the year and maybe a few days after Easter.
I don't know if other parents feel the same, but this is how I fell things have changed in the last couple of years:
Councils more than schools I think starting sending home these letters via the schools, "if your child has Polio you're only allowed to have them home for half a day" or words to that effect, I forget the exact advise but you needed to have a pretty ill kid on your hands for whoever was behind the letters to agree you could keep them home - quite rightly most Parents decided if they'd be the judge of when and how long their kids needed bed rest etc if they were ill.
Then there was the leave for bereavement - if someone died in your family, it didn't matter one jolt how close they were to them, or how devastated they were, if they weren't immediate family then they had to go to school, parents again decided "I'll be the judge of that"
Finally, it came to the Holidays - it doesn't matter if your kids had otherwise perfect attendance, or how many days your school took your kid away from their class to play cricket or rugby, book a holiday during term time and you'd pay a fine, if you don't pay you'll go to prison.
I think the most maddening thing was the clauses that meant the parents of kids who NEVER went to school completely avoided the fines.
The latest issue we have now with our local schools is a return to Victorian dress code for High School kids, blazers, hats etc - they're impractical, uncomfortable and bloody expensive - I asked for the rational behind it - "oh we looked at schools who have the best exam results and copied them" Well Shock horror if Eton and such didn't have the best results and oh they all were silly clothes too - but I reckon theirs more to their success than dressing like a Dickensian Swell.
A ski holiday introduces kids to a whole new world. An economy based around the joy to be had sliding down some snow up a mountain. Glaciers aren't just something in a geography book, they're what shaped the landscape and in some case what's under your feet - hanging valleys, u-shaped valleys, geology all around you. The language will probably be foreign, the culture different and it's all real without a screen or script.
Thanks for the holiday in the Alps, mum and dad. I learned to do all the things I saw people doing. Thanks for the trip to Brittany when we saw one of the first windsurfers, I learned to do that too. And thanks to the teacher who explained that with this new fangled EU thing I could live and work anywhere I chose.
Surely this just about cost saving rather than educational value?
The same holidays can be taken between terms.
Sky News: [i]Update - Department of Education source says "we will now look to change the law" after father won legal challenge over term-time holiday[/i]
enjoy it while you can peeps...
[edit] I've seen no argument that says children get more from a holiday taken in term time than the same holiday taken in the holidays. IT's an economic argument that people then try and justify,
The problem with replying on "at the headteacher's discretion" is that is will be inconsistent between schools and perhaps between pupils. So one head may interpret that it's a reasonable request and the head at their sisters school deems in unreasonable. Discretion is based on opinion, it's human so people won't be happy about it as it's won't be their opinion. So you then get requests for consistency, rules get brought in, and then people complain about a lack of common sense so the cycle continues.
The rules were strict but they were also fair and even. This will not be the case as soon as this is changed.
*taps sarcastometer. unexpectedly showing no signs, or it's bust
I know. My fingers bled as I typed it.
It's worse though as we have THM, Junkyard and Edukator agreeing with each other. It truly is Friday the 13th.
Thanks for the holiday in the Alps, mum and dad. I learned to do all the things I saw people doing. Thanks for the trip to Brittany when we saw one of the first windsurfers, I learned to do that too. And thanks to the teacher who explained that with this new fangled EU thing I could live and work anywhere I chose.
I didn't know these things stopped happening during the school holidays...
I'm agreeing with Molgrips, Drac.
A major problem is that the people making the laws have the capability to pay the extroniate premium holiday price in the school holidays...so those making the laws have little understanding of the dilemma poorer families have....
And I'm agreeing with edenvalleyboy.
Advantage of legislation is that the rules should be applied equally to all, the discretion should be removed from any changes.
Parents can't see that two different trips at two different times of the year may have different advantages and impacts. It's just "but the smiths took their children, why are we punished?" I had one kid come back from the school ski trip (grrrrr) only to be taken on a family holiday the next week. He was in an exam year and missed the prelim which would be critical if he needed to appeal. Only reason was cost. We had to hold the returning of papers and marks until he had sat and paper marked. The whole year suffered as a consequence.
I like to apply the "what if everyone did the same?" principal to situations like this. Well, if they did, summer holidays would start two weeks earlier, Christmas last two weeks longer, because no-one wants to go on a cold summer holiday or ski in slush (assumptions made to demonstrate the point). It's a shame there aren't 13 other weeks in the year when they could go. If most people took the last two weeks of July off, which parents seem to argue nothing much happens, to go on a cheaper holiday, what do you think would happen? Well we might as well start back two weeks earlier... And the problem starts again.
Parents who can't take time off in non-term time aside, it really does boil down to money. Using the argument that your kid is top of the class, well, that's about one in thirty then, applying the if we all do the same principle.
Teachers trying to decide which pupils can go on holiday will only ever come across as favouritism and favour the better educated parents who invest more of their free time in their children's education. It really isn't a school's or head's role to decide this, that's why we end up with one rule for everyone. Special cases aside, it does boil down to money and self-centeredness.
Glaciers aren't just something in a geography book, they're what shaped the landscape and in some case what's under your feet - hanging valleys, u-shaped valleys, geology all around you. The language will probably be foreign, the culture different and it's all real without a screen or script.
Exactly the same as North Wales or Scotland then.
Oh and FYI stuff like glaciation doesn't feature in geography as much as it used to anymore.
Anyway, I blame Murdoch, keeps putting the price of Sky up so all those people with all the packages can't afford their Costa Whatever holiday.
Every time a parent comes into school and says "i'm taking my child on holiday for a week" the teacher(s) have to spend hours writing a weeks worth of lesson plans for that child, on top of all the regular planning, marking, goal setting, reporting and ensuring each of the 35 kids is either challenged or supported etc.
None of this happened in the Good Old Days, which is why no-one minded so much.
It's no good leaving it up to the kids/parents, because it's the school that loses out, so it's the school that needs to ensure all the work gets done.
This could all be sorted with more money for smaller class sizes or something, but no-one likes paying more tax, especially the Conservatives, which is why they'll just define the law more clearly and make it more illegal.
I've never seen a glacier in North Wales or Scotland. I've also no idea what's taught in geography but it's a real pity if kids aren't taught about glaciers and how melting the remaining ones will raise sea levels and drown large populated areas.
Surely this just about cost saving rather than educational value?The same holidays can be taken between terms.
The only times Stoners Jr have ever been taken out of school early are for the TdF. This term, again, we have asked for, and been granted, permission to take the boys out of school for the last Thurs/Fri of term so as to be able to make it to the last day of the tour.
Fortunately our headmistress isn't some histrionic crybaby wailing about the huge disruption this will cause to the other 100 children in the school and damning them all to a failed education.
drown large populated areas.
*fingers crossed it's the North*
I've never seen a glacier in North Wales or Scotland.
A bit before your time probably or you just weren't paying attention - or you were away on holiday!
Fortunately our headmistress isn't some histrionic crybaby wailing about the huge disruption this will cause to the other 100 children in the school and damning them all to a failed education.
🙂
the dilemma poorer families have....
Can I afford this holiday?
No
Better find one I can afford then. Like buying a tent.
As dilemmas go, it's not ****ing rocket science.
I understand that for some kids, missing some time off school isn't a problem, but the sense of entitlement some people seem to have about a holiday does grate sometimes.
How does this one work then?...
In a few weeks time my daughter is going on a French exchange trip, and only 5% of her Y8 pupils are going. During that week away she will miss a weeks worth of national curriculum work. Will she...
a) be losing out terribly on a weeks worth of normal school work to be forever damaged by this loss. And the remaining 95% of her year will now be 1 week ahead of her.
b) benefit from learning about about another country, their ways, culture, family life and their schools.
There will be no lessons during her trip, but I know which she'll gain a lot more from.
An exchange trip, as in a proper exchange where your kids will be handed over to French families. I'm impressed, Muffin-man. The real exchanges Madame and her colleagues used to organise all fell through because British parents were worried that the French families would be sex fiends, irresponsible etc.. She still organises trips but they rely on paid host families In Brighton, Chatham etc.
How does this one work then?...In a few weeks time my daughter is going on a French exchange trip, and only 5% of her Y8 pupils are going. During that week away she will miss a weeks worth of national curriculum work. Will she...
Well according to this thread [b]you[/b] are:
1) An irresponsible parent
2) Possible a baby boomer
3) Part of the me, me, me generation
4) Part of the "Me, Myself, I" generation
5) Have no respect for the 'social contract'
6) very selfish
7) guilty of "dumping your ignorant and disruptive children back in the classroom"
8) disrespectful to teachers
9) guaranteeing your children will be academically behind and can never catch up
10) jeopardising your children's careers and future
I hope you feel very very guilty.....
Could a lot of this issue be resolved by some careful planning and spreading of school holidays?
Iirc, there was a proposal 10+ years ago for a five term year with more regular breaks and no daft long summer holiday. If planned properly, it meant every local authority had Christmas week and one more 'shared' (but not simultaneously) to allow visiting family, but that holidays were spread across something like 8 months of the year.
Unsurprisingly, it never got past local traditional holiday dates and the churches insistence on Easter being a moveable feast.
The same holidays can be taken between terms.
Well not really, cos everyone can't go in the same week. There aren't enough hotels/campsites/chalets, are there?
There doesnt have to be enough hotels/campsites/chalets molgrips.
You just need a mechanism for allocating them based on the importance an individual places on the the holiday. I don't know, some kind of market based system would work...
...oh...wait...
Dunno if anyone has mentioned it yet, but all that will now happen is that the government will re-write law. It was the definition of 'regular' attendence that got this bloke off.
Disappointed they may be at the High Court ruling in the Jon Platt term-time holiday case but ministers say they will now look to change the legislation.However, they maintain the policy to reduce school absence is "clear and correct" and they also plan to strengthen the statutory guidance on the issue to schools and local authorities.
From the beeb
So how about if your child doesn't attend (secondary) school for a week but goes off to an outward bound centre instead & learns nothing that's on the school curriculum?
At 14 yrs old.
I understand that for some kids, missing some time off school isn't a problem, but the sense of entitlement some people seem to have about a holiday does grate sometimes.
The entitlement to spend time with kids rates pretty highly for me, if I choose to do that whilst taking them away is a bonus.
What grates is the sense that this is all about wanting to take the kids to Barbados rather than Bamburgh.
Every time a parent comes into school and says "i'm taking my child on holiday for a week" the teacher(s) have to spend hours writing a weeks worth of lesson plans for that child, on top of all the regular planning, marking, goal setting, reporting and ensuring each of the 35 kids is either challenged or supported etc.
Pfft, I don't write lesson plans for the students that are in the room so I'm not going to write them for the kids missing lesson because they're on holiday. They can print out the work they missed and figure it out for themselves.
An exchange trip, as in a proper exchange where your kids will be handed over to French families
Yes.
The trip was put forward at the start of the school year last September. Initially she wasn't confident enough to do it, but when it was the French schools turn to come over here last October our school were short of a family to house one of the girls as they were sending more than we were. My daughter said we'll take her! And since she the French girl stayed at our house she's been really looking forward to the return trip.
I think the worries of British parents is the reason so few are going though, which is a real shame.
So how about if your child doesn't attend (secondary) school for a week but goes off to an outward bound centre instead & learns nothing that's on the school curriculum?At 14 yrs old.
Two thoughts.
If school is only about a formal curriculum of maths and English etc, then you are right to suggest they should stay in school. However school to most of us is much, much more. And learning is not confined to low grade admin tasks, sat at a desk.
If the school uses a provider who doesn't tie in huge amounts of the week to formal curriculum, as well as much wider social skills, confidence, problem solving, working with others, care for the environment etc, then they need to find a new provider.
So how about if your child doesn't attend (secondary) school for a week but goes off to an outward bound centre instead & learns nothing that's on the school curriculum?
At 14 yrs old.
That was me & some classmates in 1971, did Howtown twice & Thurston on Coniston once. Learned more & enjoyed it a lot more than school (even though it was provided by our school)
But is it any different from taking your kids 'out of school'?
Is confuddled!
I've posted this on similar threads before: my parents are in the holiday trade and take 70% of there income during the 6 weeks of the summer holidays and worked 6 days a week during it. They could not afford to take us abroad for winte sun so we would have never have had a family holiday under the current rules.
Personally I think that a child should get 2 weeks to take a year outside of normal holidays until upper secondary.
****less parents won't care regardless of the rules so why punish others.
I've never seen a glacier in North Wales or Scotland.
Very true it I can confirm that they were still there during school holidays. Some costs may be higher but food doesn't get more expensive in school holidays, or fuel or heaps of other stuff. Having a mother who was a teacher and a father who was a farmer meant we were really limited in holiday times but we still managed learnt a lot and didn't miss school. What a shocker.
Do the school time and do the holiday time too they are not exclusive
And for those that can't there's now another option.
In these days of performance related pay I have to ensure that my classes achieve in line with national expectations. Couple of kids bugger off on holiday at the wrong time and I might not get my pay progression. One year 11 in my class went on holiday for two weeks just after easter. It was a real struggle to get him to finish his coursework in time for submission and he missed the last bit of his final unit a month before his exam....
If we scrapped mental ideas like SATs in favour of more civilised systems like PYP and baccalaureate we wouldn't need to concern ourselves with this nonsense
I think that a child should get 2 weeks to take a year
Its a 38 week year so each week you will have about 1.5 children off . You really think this wont impact on learning outcomes?
Its has a severe impact on learning for the entire class that the parents just dont seem to grasp or care - whilst moaning at the "****less parents" when they are those parents.
A major problem is that the people making the laws have the capability to pay the extroniate premium holiday price in the school holidays...so those making the laws have little understanding of the dilemma poorer families have....
A holiday to Disneyland (or even somewhere a plane trip away) is not a right. Parents should book the holidays that they can afford, not the holidays that they want.
When I was younger, we had little money and our holidays (not in term time) were affordable ones. Often under canvas. Now I have children of my own, we are better off than my parents were so the holidays are nicer but we still work to the constraint of what we can afford.
Some segments of society seem to have lost sight of living within your means and now want to live within their desires (whether they have the money or now).
Sending your child to school is entirely optional. There is no law mandating it. If you choose to send your child to school, then they should attend school and abide by the rules. If you do not like those rules, you can always home school them.
Its has a severe impact on learning for the entire class
you keep saying that, and I'm going to start calling it a junkyfact, but would like to see some data on it.
It's more than a victory for responsible parents.. it's a small victory for society.
It really doesn't do the 'education system' any favours when it's suggested that the combination of parents/class teacher/year head/head teacher and child cannot make an EDUCATED decision on such matters.
What is this 'education' we are being fed if we can't make such simple decisions?
In these days of performance related pay I have to ensure that my classes achieve in line with national expectations
Which is an unrealistic objective given that kids from different backgrounds will not have identical performance or respond in the same way to the same efforts on the part of a teacher. If you teach in a school in a social dumping ground estate you can't be expected to get the kids to produce the same results as an area which always has (and probably always will) produced high performing kids.
I had five kids in one of my classes, they were introduced to me by my head of department as "four car thieves and a prostitute". If they only did minor damage to the teaching facilities whilst under my supervision it was considered a victory. If I'd ever got them to write or read anything at all it would have been an exploit (I didn't).
Stoner - Member
Its has a severe impact on learning for the entire class
you keep saying that, and I'm going to start etc...
Well,yesterday my class of 15yo historians were handed a sheet on Nazi control as they came in. Each had one fact they had to rewrite in their own words. They then had to fill in the rest of the facts on a give and take basis,and importantly; had to put the information on their sheet in their own words. If I had 5 pupils who had gone on holiday two weeks before the end,or at the beginning of term because it is cheaper,then I could not do this.This was then reinforced by images on the white board they had to link to the different topics and a part paper question. Maybe you could explain to me how your child will replicate all that? And where does the blame lie if there is a question on Nazi Control in the final paper and they cant answer it?
Got bored and gave up.
Couple of thoughts though:
Many people have still took their kids out in term time and either pretended that they're sick, or just chanced the fine. I don't believe anything will change. We took out two to Barcelona for four days at the beginning of September, were honest with the school, didn't get a fine, and so far nobody has suffered. (My kids are 9 and 6). Would I do it during SATS, GCSE? Probably not. Responsible parents will remain responsible. Likewise those that don't give a ****, still won't.
Interestingly. What happens at school during the school ski trip? Who suffers then? I know one local school where the kids who don't go come off the normal timetable. Who is that being fair to? The kids whose parents can afford a ski trip?
Well,yesterday my class of 15yo historians were handed a sheet on Nazi control as they came in. Each had one fact they had to rewrite in their own words. They then had to fill in the rest of the facts on a give and take basis,and importantly; had to put the information on their sheet in their own words. If I had 5 pupils who had gone on holiday two weeks before the end,or at the beginning of term because it is cheaper,then I could not do this.This was then reinforced by images on the white board they had to link to the different topics and a part paper question. Maybe you could explain to me how your child will replicate all that? And where does the blame lie if there is a question on Nazi Control in the final paper and they cant answer it?
Hand outs and the white board? Did you have to nip in to the store cupboard to help the secretary, sir? Sir?
🙂
you keep saying that, and I'm going to start calling it a junkyfact, but would like to see some data on it
Jesus wept
I just checked and apparently there is absolutely no relationship between attendance at school and educational outcomes
Not being there will literally have no impact on your learning...stoner says so and he knows about education because well he has children so there,
This is so self evidently true it beggars belief that I am being asked to prove it 😯
Lets start with the Tory press and work our way our then shall we
meaning just an extra week off a year for a family holiday could make the critical difference.
JUst for you a graph
[img] 
[/img]
at in general the higher the percentage of sessions missed across the key stage, the lower the likely level of attainment at the end of KS4. Specifically, pupils with no absence are 1.5 times more likely to achieve 5+ GCSEs A*-C or equivalent and 2.8 times more likely to achieve 5+ GCSEs A*-C or equivalent including English and mathematics than pupils missing 15-20 per cent of KS4 lessons. The difference in
achievement is also evident with the English Baccalaureate, where pupils with no absence are around 10.2 times more likely to achieve the English Baccalaureate than pupils missing 15-20 per cent of KS4 lessons.
The relationship between absence and KS4 attainment remained similar over the past five academic years.
[b] you cannot teach someone who is not there
I cannot believe anyone actually required this explaining to them.[/b]
Do you need more?
for the entire class
🙄
I am well aware of the data behind individual achievement and attendance across the population. But you are one of a number that have made a link between an individual's non-attendance and the performance of the rest of the class. You have not provided any evidence that there is that link.
Tell you what teach a class for one week on something all attend.
Teach a class and each day two folk dont attend - let me know which class covers the most work will you and which ones will perform the best and know the most.
It is amusing watching STW debates when you know something and seeing how much if our debates are just empty vessels making the most noise - please try and see when its you.
I defer entirely to parents with no educational expertise as well you are the experts and you know best ...just like i do with your area of expertise...you are not forgiven 😉
I am well aware of the data behind individual achievement and attendance across the population. But you are one of a number that have made a link between an individual's non-attendance and the performance of the rest of the class. You have not provided any evidence that there is that link.
AAMOI how would one design an experiment to gather such evidence?
so you're sticking by your "junkyfact", with absolutely no evidence to back it up? Not even a teeny, tiny, figleaf of an anecdote in there for us?
DrJ - why would I need to design such an experiment? I'm not the one that's pulled a spurious hypothesis out of thin air in an attempt to collectivise an individual's choice!
The refuge of collectivism is to stretch the appearance of harm created by an individual. There is no harm, there is only ideological disagreement.
"so you're sticking by your "junkyfact", with absolutely no evidence to back it up?"
He's posted the evidence.
He's posted the evidence.
where?
No, [b]outofbreath[/b], you've missed what's going on here. [b]Stoner[/b] is reacting to a very specific claim of [b]Junkyard[/b], that claim being that taking kids out of class affects the learning outcome for [i]the whole class[/i]. It's a way of being technically right without acknowledging the broader point, that point being that evidence suggests that taking kids out of class affects the learning outcome for [i]those kids in particular[/i].
I think it shows poor form, particularly with the liberal application of one of these oh-so-quaint portmanteaus that seem [i]de rigueur[/i] these days. #Junkyfact indeed.
So disenfranchised kids who are under performing go to school less and therefore there's a statistical link between low attendance and poor performance. But which came first, the chicken or the egg?
What we need is a statistical analysis which links performance and the number of weeks taken for in-term holidays rather than truancy/illness, Junkyard.
As for the aptly chosen Nazi example just telling absent kids to catch up from their mates solves the problem for the teacher.
Why would I need the design such an experiment? I'm not the one that's pulled a spurious hypothesis out of thin air in an attempt to collectivise an individual's choice!
You don't, of course. However, the absence of evidence in the form of a convenient statistically significant controlled experiment does not prove that the hypothesis is false.
In fact it would seem clear that if the absentee imposes work on the teacher, however small an amount, then it would of necessity have a negative impact on the class. Whether you see that as being no big deal or not is another matter.
I just used to give an A4 sheet with the topic, how to solve it and some questions to see if they could do it.
Any problems, see me at lunch for a few minutes to guide you through it.
Most kids couldn't remember the topics at the beginning of the year if they have not revised anyway.
If that's all you taught in a week it was hardly worth showing up to work.
so you're sticking by your "junkyfact", with absolutely no evidence to back it up?
Its so self evidently true that i am surprised you ask for evidence.
Tell you what teach a class for one week on something all attend.
Teach a class and each day two folk dont attend - let me know which class covers the most work will you and which ones will perform the best and know the most.
There is no way you dont know the answer hence why you ignored it completely, amusing, and one has to try very hard to not see this obvious point. I am sure you will continue to manage this with spectacular ease .
Edukator the facts are for absence they make no distinction as to the reason for absence.
Calling it a junkyfact is amusing though but such hashtags should be reserved for something that is palpably false rather than "unproven". I think you can , if you wish, claim it unproven for the reasons Dr J notes - we cannot really do controlled studies for this,
However i am surprised that you think its contentious so again
Tell you what teach a class for one week on something all attend.
Teach a class and each day two folk dont attend - let me know which class covers the most work will you and which ones will perform the best and know the most.
Its really not hard to work out the answer to this.
Keeping my head down here as we've just received a 'yes' to take our lad out of school to go away next week..a week before half term...
Our issue was that I can't ever get locum cover during half term/holidays (local locum shortage cripples us at the best of times), and I haven't taken any leave for 6 months...
Yes, the holiday is cheaper, but it was that or nothing....
He'll be ok...
DrP
He'll be ok...
Yep, but will you cope with the shame of being such a selfish, me, me, etc etc?