http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36277940
This set of rules should never have been brought in. Hopefully they'll be scrapped or amended now.
A victory also for irresponsible parents. For every parent taking their kids out of school during the "dead time" after exams, for an educational trip to an eco-village in Costa Rica, there will be a dozen knuckle-draggers taking Sharon and Wayne to Malaga in the middle of term and then kicking up a fuss when the little bleeders screw up their results.
As you never know what and when in a lesson is going to make something click for a child how do you know that they won't miss that eureka moment when you have removed them from lessons - how will they catch up?
Won't somebody think of the children?.....
[i]Won't somebody think of the children?[/i]
But! But! CHEAP HOLIDAYS!!!!!
[edit] waits for thread to follow the usual course of such things....
Prioritising a week in Disneyland over school is not responsible parenting in my book.
I'm minded to think that its a victory for the me-me-me generation.
A reminder to the state that it does not own my child.
Open season on chavs taking kids out of school now.
man thinks rules don't apply to him
court agrees
or that they apply to anyone
funny old world
I can understand why parents want to take kids away in term time, what happened to letting parents parent?
If the parents value their childs education then they will generally leave them there and let them get on with it, especially during important exam prep years. My parents could have taken me on holiday without a fine but never did... Not sure the government should ever have got involved.
A victory for travel agents?
Expect holiday prices during term time to take a sharp rise sometime soon.
Prioritising a week in Disneyland over school is not responsible parenting in my book.
There was a context around a break down in a relationship that isn't mentioned in this article, that a holiday was thought to be an attempt to get things straight.
I think by going to Disneyland he's dollied this up to be smacked out of the park by the haterz. Could have been worse though, he might have gone skiing or something 😉
cue definition being swiftly brought it.The question was whether the child had failed to attend regularly and the act does not define "regularly".
Will this lead to parents sending sick/unfit kids to school rather than keeping them home as they don't want attendance to fall and potentially disqualify them from cheap term time holidays?
I'm not sure why you're all getting so worked up? As responsible parents you won't be taking your kids out, will you? So all that happens is the knuckle-dragging parents of Sharon and Wayne (what is this, Eastenders in 1989? Never mind, carry on) **** up their kids educations, your kids do better than them and go on to get better jobs, climb the greasy pole, earn more money, and eventually employ stupid old Sharon and Wayne as cheap labour.
Also, your educational holidays to Tuscany outside of term time are now a bit cheaper as demand for peak-season flights falls because povvo Sharon and Wayne's mum and dad are messing up their kids educations by taking them on a term-time jaunt to somewhere ghastly and working class. It's win-win for pushy middle-class parents!
My wife's a teacher and I'm involved with supporting Special Educational Needs and Disabilities and in no way would we rely on statutory education on its own for our kids education.
I should think it would level out the prices, anyone taking term time hols are currently being subsidised* by those going in holiday time.Expect holiday prices during term time to take a sharp rise sometime soon
*well not them personally obviously.
Won't someone think of the adults?
I book my holiday in term time so I don't have to put up with screaming brats.
I have no kids, I like that I can take cheaper holidays when everyone with kids can't, I also like that this means there are no kids around on said holiday.
This ruling is therefore an absolute disgrace.
Irresponsible parents will always be that - this ruling won't change a thing for them. Little Kanye and Beyonce will always come way down the priority list.
Perhaps if the holiday companies didn't take the opportunity to ramp up their prices during school holidays this probably wouldn't have made this guy think that rules don't apply to him
Junior has spent several weeks each Winter skiing in term time. Something which would have earned me a series of fines in the UK. His school results haven't suffered (he's got a place at Science Po Paris, the French equivalent of a cross between Oxford and LSE) and he's already got one career to go to as a ski instructor.
Whether it's Malaga or an eco-village in Costa Rica they'll learn more than in school. And it really won't affect their results in either case. The bright kids will catch up and those who make no effort wouldn't have learnt a fat lot even they'd gone to school.
Has anyone on this forum ever had a "eureka moment" in school? I've had a few since but in school it was just learning and regurgitating.
Edit: I missed months of school with asthma and got the best exam results in the school - I think the two were linked.
My wife's the head of a special needs school.
She *always* approves term time holiday for children in her school. A number have autism and can't cope with crowds, others have needs which require special facilities for which demand is high.
Parents often have to ask her to write letters to other schools so that siblings can also join them on holiday.
I struggle to think of other circumstances under which a child would *need* to be taken on holiday during school terms.
this is terrible news for those of us free from kids.
a holiday during term time is, or was, guaranteed to be a peaceful break from other peoples' screaming children.
Expect holiday prices during term time to take a sharp rise sometime soon
Not really it's just supply and demand, demand is always lower during term times than holidays.
He was on radio 4 this morning. For me he came across as a self centred blinkered thinking throbber of the highest order. No doubt he is correct in terms of the current state of the law, and yes the head being able to exercise some leniency and discretion is a good thing.
But as a society we only want to pay for 'mass education' in cost effective groupings. Schools can't plan effective teaching if there is a constant coming and going of kids missing (outside of the minimum unpreventable illness). If a ruling like this starts a free for all of taking holidays when you like the only folk to really suffer will be the kids who will receive a poorer 'collective' education.
Awhiles - What do you do that means you need a break from screaming children?
i live in a world where parents seem oblivious to the screaching anti-social behaviour of their** kids.
holiday destinations are usually nice and quiet during term time.
(**i know, i know, children are like farts, etc.)
I'm not sure why you're all getting so worked up? As responsible parents you won't be taking your kids out, will you? So all that happens is the knuckle-dragging parents of Sharon and Wayne (what is this, Eastenders in 1989? Never mind, carry on) **** up their kids educations, your kids do better than them
Except of course that Wayne and Sharon now sit in class firing ink pellets at the teacher because they can't follow the lesson and prevent Tarquin and Jessica from learning
Whether it's Malaga or an eco-village in Costa Rica they'll learn more than in school. And it really won't affect their results in either case. The bright kids will catch up and those who make no effort wouldn't have learnt a fat lot even they'd gone to school.
Could not miss the point more if you had tried. This is not about the individual but about the collective. The whole class makes less progress if students are constantly coming and going. Parents (as you ably demonstrate) only focus on their own and are unable to see the big picture. Not sure if this is wilful or just an inability to decentre.
Except of course that Wayne and Sharon now sit in class firing ink pellets at the teacher because they can't follow the lesson and prevent Tarquin and Jessica from learning
Surely Tarquin and Jessica go to a Private school and never have to meet Wayne and Sharon?
I for one look forward to the time when teachers can take their kids out of school during term time. I wonder if said bloke would be equally supportive.
Oh and if it was the same bloke who was on R4 this morning then yeah he did come across as a self important knob.
Whether it's Malaga or an eco-village in Costa Rica they'll learn more than in school. And it really won't affect their results in either case
If this were the case then why bother with school at all.
A reminder to the state that it does not own my child.
The state has never claimed any such thing if it did then going to a state school would be compulsory whereas the state only mandates that an education be provided.
this is terrible news for those of us free from kids.
It really isn't is it........
Not in light entertainment then?
But as a society we only want to pay for 'mass education' in cost effective groupings. Schools can't plan effective teaching if there is a constant coming and going of kids missing (outside of the minimum unpreventable illness). If a ruling like this starts a free for all of taking holidays when you like the only folk to really suffer will be the kids who will receive a poorer 'collective' education.
This. It also makes it harder for the teacher delivering the lessons when the children are on different pages. Multiple children popping off for 2 weeks at a time here and there is not conducive to classes of 30 or so.
It was always about common sense discretion that was taken away from head teachers.
If your kid is attaining above the required levels, and the time off doesn't bring their school attendance below 95% in a rolling 12 months, let them take it.
If they are not attaining (and don't have special needs to justify that), or attendance will drop below 95%, then the fine should be double the cost of the ****ing holiday.
If my absence from work dips below 8 days/3 incidents in a rolling 12 months, I face a disciplinary review, don't see why parents and kids shouldn't be facing the same real life pressure.
And that's speaking as a parent who has not had a term time holiday for 8 years, and kids attendance never below 98%.
No one has a "right" to a cheap holiday. You only have a right to time off work. Though I accept that people who do not control when their leave is rostered should get special consideration from the schools.
a holiday during term time is, or was, guaranteed to be a peaceful break from other peoples' screaming children.
+1
With the recent sunshine we've had to get our passive aggressive "I hope that kids not going to scream like that all summer" voice out early for the benefit of our neighbors. The problem with such early escalation is it doesn't leave many options for later in the summer other than a foul smelling smoky bonfire to drive everyone else indoors and NWA on full volume.
Not sure which is worse, goading the kids or the dogs.
"come here, come to mummy"
"RAAAA WAAAAAAAA RAAAAAA"
"come here, come to mummy"
"WOOF WOOOF WOOOOOF"
The whole class makes less progress if students are constantly coming and going
The best way of learning stuff thoroughly is teaching it (see the learning pyramid). When kids take notes for their classmates to help them catch up they learn more themselves.
Kids are always coming and going as they catch colds or worse. It really doesn't make any difference to what happens in class. As a teacher I used give kids who had been absent the handouts and ask if they had a mate to catch up from. Worked fine.
Everyone did the same in my classes. Those that did it quickly and easily were given something more of interest but everyone did the same core.
ads678 - MemberIt really isn't is it........
that's the weird thing about parents, no sense of humour.
[i]When kids take notes for their classmates to help them catch up they learn more themselves.[/i]
You really think my kids are going to salve your conscience for taking your kids out of class in term time by taking notes and then giving up their own learning time to go through the notes with your kids when they deign to attend while the rest of the class move on to other stuff? Really?
This is not about the individual but about the collective
point, most certainly not missed.
My children and their education are not in common ownership thank you.
Very interesting as a good friend of mine and his wife where each fined for taking their kids skiing in January. His kids are right at the top of their respective classes. On a related note had another wealthy friend who took his kids travelling for a year, they came back and where not behind their school work at all having studied a bit when away, in fact one son's maths improved markedly.
The solution to this problem is to copy the French school holiday model and stagger holidays by region thus reducing the pressure on certain specific dates.
Probably the lack of sleep.that's the weird thing about parents, no sense of humour.
I mean everyone's entitled to a sense of humor failure after no sleep for 3 years whilst listening to "Let it Go" on repeat?
you should encourage them to do so WW!
there is evidence that the assimilation of knowledge in order to be able to pass it on requires greater cognitive function and development. It's one of the reasons that older siblings have a tendency to reach higher academic achievements than their younger siblings. Data has been corrected for sibling deaths and multiple siblings.
the girl on average misses 10% or half a day per week and they think that's good attendance? let her go but she takes work to catch up with. that'll learn 'em 95% and above was the threshold when I was teaching for these sort of skives 😯
I was surprised by the courts definition of good attendance - 90%. I think missing 1 day in every two weeks is poor attendance.
I dont think they defined good attendance as 90%, the court simply concluded that the government had not defined regular attendance.
90% was the threshold for chronic truancy.
The particulars of this case dont shower the parents in glory, but it ought to bring the principle of what is acceptable <100% for the definition of regular education.
[i]you should encourage them to do so WW![/i]
No problem with my kids helping others. My daughter has a partner in a number of lessons that she helps with his work as he has some special needs.
I would object to her being used to do that with some kid who's parents thought they'd take advantage of a cheap holiday because 'it's alright, the other kids will help him catch up again'. It's not alright.
Anyway, I'm the oldest of 4 and least academically qualified - the rest all have Master level qualifications and I got one, grade D, A level so in true stw style - you're wrong!
My children and their education are not in common ownership thank you
And my children's education is not in your ownership, to be buggered up by dragging your kids off to Benidorm and then dumping them ignorant and disruptive back in the classroom.
a holiday during term time is, or was, guaranteed to be a peaceful break from other peoples' screaming children.
Interesting. In my experience my kids were at there screamiest when they were pre school, and we were free to take them on holiday whenever we felt like it. I genuinely don't think we ever spoilt anyone else holiday.
As an aside, we kept both our kids out from school until they were nearly eight- one of the reasons was that we'd have more freedom for holidays, due to the nature of our work at the time- now the kids can't remember half the places we've been to. I reckon that you're wasting the money taking them to memorable places until they're a fair bit older- they've the memories of goldfish. 🙂
it's back to the whole 'social contract' thing.
a basic expectation that other users of state services will follow the same rules that you do because in the end the common good relies on it.
like having vaccinations. you don't *have* to but if you don't and enough other people don't either then the risk for everyone increases.
In practice though it'll have little effect. The fines weren't much of a deterrent. £60 on top of the cost of a trip to Disney land isn't going to put anyone off. You either think it's ok to take your kids out of school or you don't.
it's back to the whole 'social contract' thing.a basic expectation that other users of state services will follow the same rules that you do because in the end the common good relies on it.
along with an implicit acceptance that the state knows what's good for you.
So many states, so many different contracts, all for the common good. Which one to choose?
And nothing like vaccinations, by the way.
this is terrible news for those of us free from kids.
a holiday during term time is, or was, guaranteed to be a peaceful break from other peoples' screaming children.
I see it as a problem shared..I have to deal with the winging, screaming, and mess all year round... 😉
DrP
along with an implicit acceptance that the state knows what's good for you.
Along with an implicit acceptance that the state knows what's in the common good. Alternative societies are available - I believe that Somalia is pretty lax on the whole truancy thang.
Perhaps if the holiday companies didn't take the opportunity to ramp up their prices during school holidays
They don't, they ramp them down in term time.
but in school it was just learning and regurgitating
You went to school in France though, didn't you Ed?
Along with an implicit acceptance that the state knows what's in the common good.
and has no need to refine that knowledge, to allow for change?
Tales of gifted/clever kids not being impacted are just distractions and best case scenarios .
(and in one case jambyfact 😉 ) - wealthy year off yaya .
Fact is if average or less than kids miss too much then its a struggle to catch up and who does the catching up? - Does the teacher just leave them to it?
If teacher is having to spend time on catch up instead of
helping those who genuinely need it or moving on to the next subject this is not good.
This court case will result in more pain for everybody in terms of regulation and selfish behavior .
The rules could help by designating some dates as more flexible for example in the last 2 weeks of term - but frankly unless you pay somebody to teach what was missed then why should others miss out.
There are always proper exceptions and that is fine - you can also take your kids out of school and educate them yourselves its your choice and your responsibility.
Our council wouldn't even take Tesco Clubcard vouchers for the fine, it's an outrage!
I see it as a problem shared..I have to deal with the winging, screaming, and mess all year round...
and that's just the other GPs...
A secondary mod in Brum, Molgrips. I was only the second pupil from the place to get to university which I put down to joining a cycling club and being off sick a lot - the first guy to get to university was in the same club which made me realise it was possible.
Excellent result the law has it right and I pretty much agree with Stoner's points on this thread.
When I was a nipper i went to disney world for a week during term time. Didn't do any harm at all.
Certainly, missing a week of primary school is no big deal
Another victory for the "Me, Myself, I" generation
aP
I'm minded to think that its a victory for the me-me-me generation.
I don't see how, The Baby Boomers are all nearing retirement now - long past caring about holidays with kids.
Education is undervalued hugely.
Is a week off significant to affect their grades?
Any evidence?
As long as it's not GCSE years, probably not.
Maybe they will learn more on a holiday.
It's not as if they are walking around the city centre truanting.
Just don't rely on teachers to provide catch up materials.
Didnt really need much beyond the first post tbh
Very disruptive for the teacher and the rest of the class and slefish parents putting their "need for a holiday" above the quality of education ALL children receive
Thatcher would be proud of the way you ignore society and think only of yourself where yourself means your wallet,
Very disruptive for the teacher and the rest of the class and slefish parents putting their "need for a holiday" above the quality of education ALL children receive
Not really, kids are off all the time sick - I find it hard to believe this is going to become more than a drop in the ocean compared to that. Realistically how many parents are actually going to take their kids out of school at a critical time?
Is a week off significant to affect their grades?
If its 20 weeks as everyone does then yes it has an impact on the schooling
its a priori but i am sure evidence exists if you really require itAny evidence?
Maybe they will learn more on a holiday.
That is just laughable and it depends very heavily on what you mean by "learn". My kids would learn to be better cyclists. Wont help them pass exams though
kids are off all the time sick
Are you arguing this is not disruptive or are you arguing two "wrongs" make a right?
convert - MemberHe was on radio 4 this morning. For me he came across as a self centred blinkered thinking throbber of the highest order
He's a friend of a friend and yes a total raging tosser. But that's not neccesarily material 😆
It's a new dawn - @thm I actually agree AND like what you wrote...I must be dreaming.... 😀
[quote=edenvalleyboy spake unto the masses, saying]It's a new dawn - @thm I actually agree AND like what you wrote...I must be dreaming....
We're entering End Times 🙁
Are you arguing this is not disruptive or are you arguing two "wrongs" make a right?
I'm just saying that kids not being there is hardly unusual, and is unlikely to cause significant disruption. It affects their education, of course, but I very much doubt that it's a serious problem for the rest of the class. Unless we're talking about a significant percentage of parents taking their kids out of class, but is that the case?
So in effect kids have annual leave, attend for all of Autumn and you can get a 2 week break in March. Nice 🙂
Disneyland 🙄 No one should go there ever, that alone should have swayed the court decision against him, far from educational. Well unless that is you work in marketing and specialise in getting kids to bully their parents into buying overpriced sh*t.
I'm torn on this, I've got 1 kid of school age and one who's yet to start.
We're going on Holiday this year in the middle of summer hols because I don't want to take him out of school. I did a couple of years ago when he was 6.
I've never really struggled to find a decent holiday for my modest budget during school hols by thinking outside the box, well not really outside the box, just outside breezing into Thomas Cook or the like and asking for a week in some Spanish Costa tower block resort.
Our school and a lot of other local ones are trying to work something out, one school booked all it's 5 inset day to run 5 in a row in June which gave parents a chance to grab a cheap holiday, ours extended the Summer Hols by 2 days to make them the full 7 weeks, the last week being not quite the full bum rape summer hols rates and Easter is two weeks after the long bank holiday rather than the week before and after.
The challenge you have is that STW are all "reasonable parents", so they may take them for a week at the end of term and it'll have almost no impact. Fine. But you have to also legislate for the "unreasonable parents" who will take them for 2 weeks at a more critical time or will will take the proverbial.
Yes, the law is a pain for some but it is a broad brush that has to be used to protect all.
And yes, I'm bitter about it has I'm married to a teacher so not only will I now get kids and potentially more cost on my lads holidays during term time, I'll also still have to go during holiday time at full cost with my wife. Anyone who thinks this will mean cheaper hols is wrong, term time will just go up in cost.
Unless we're talking about a significant percentage of parents taking their kids out of class, but is that the case?
It's not now, no. But this recent ruling may well mean that is does become the case.
I see no problem in parents taking their children out of school so long as they do not disrupt other children learning or blame others for their own failure etc.
Their children so do as they wish because there is no guarantee that all children are going to grow up successful. Some are going to end up doing low end jobs while others becoming criminals but someone got to do it ...
Their children their own responsibility otherwise don't breed.
It's not now, no. But this recent ruling may well mean that is does become the case.
Unlikely, as the government will simply set a threshold to define "reasonable attendance". Presumably higher than 90%, which is very low.
And yes, I'm bitter about it has I'm married to a teacher so not only will I now get kids and potentially more cost on my lads holidays during term time, I'll also still have to go during holiday time at full cost with my wife. Anyone who thinks this will mean cheaper hols is wrong, term time will just go up in cost.
I'm married to a teacher and the amount we save on child care during summer far outweighs the extra cost for holidays!