[Closed] A question for Brexiteers to answer ( valid point or not)

thm you ask a good question.  Why did 'we' lose.  One of the differences is that I believe 'we' means all of us.  I really despise the 'us vs them' dialogue.

I'm a fairly simple-minded sort when it comes to the 'word on the street', and from my perspective the populist media 'won' the day on behalf of the people that they scared stupid.  I also believe that Britain has always been Euroskeptic.   There is a long-standing reciprocal relationship between the populist press and the Little Englander mainstay of our National identity.    The Remain (Stronger In) campaign was a comparatively short, dry and half-hearted affair.  Cameron could only have done worse if he'd deliberately sabotaged his own campaign.  I'm not convinced that he didn't.  Corbyn only helped the RW populists by being a bearded old Euroskeptic who publically admits to liking immigrants.  And have we mentioned Islamist terrorism?  As far as most of the Leave campaign was concerned, staying in the EU simply meant letting more rats on a sinking ship.  No amount of economic pro-arguments would sway voters from that fear.  What kind of passionate pro-EU argument would you have recommended to counter the fear and hatred that the EU is 'soft' on terrorists, and, worse still, happy to 'let (sic) them all in'? Sing 'Kumbaya' in Esperante?  Free croissant for a stay vote?  A multimedia walkthru holo-dome populated by friendly holo-foreigners willing to share their sausage fora bite of your crumpet?

Why did the remain campaign fail?  I'm not in a position to have the  time to type it all out.  Do you have any reason not to believe Daniel Korski, then deputy director of the policy unit in Cameron's Government?  Here is his take on it: https://www.politico.eu/article/why-we-lost-the-brexit-vote-former-uk-prime-minister-david-cameron/

In the end, of course, it didn’t work. We won the economic argument so comprehensively and so early that it was seen as a given, rather than core to the decision. And so when the campaign began in earnest, we had no new ammunition or at least no new missiles that the media and especially the newspapers would report.

I think we were right to focus the campaign on the economic case. Where we went wrong was in our inability to connect the economic costs and benefits of the decision to ordinary people’s lives. The European single market was too esoteric a concept.

Meanwhile, Vote Leave happily ignored the facts and distorted the figures. Voters didn’t believe us when we told them that we had calculated that leaving the EU would make the average household some £4,300 worse off. But Leave’s argument that Britain was “sending” £350 million a week to Brussels was believed.

When people ask me whether I think Project Fear lost us the referendum, I answer that Project Fear did in fact win. Just not ours. Our problem is that the other side was much better at fear-mongering. Their threats — of mass immigration, Turkey’s membership, and a European army — were far scarier to the British voters than our warnings of an economic slowdown.

As this has now (already!) descended in to being exactly the same thread all over again, can a mod please kill it off?

Here’s a tip flashfart, why not just, y’know, not open it? Title’s a pretty big clue I would have thought. 💡

Oooooh! I’ve found some travelling paperclip salesman pron: 📎🖇📎🖇📎🖇📎📌📏📐

" mass immigration of low skilled , low educated , non english speaking cultures being dumped in the uk for the free health and meal ticket. get a cheque every week and rent paid for, get that back problem cared for, which would never have been attended to from whence they came."

this is a classic example of what I mean.  None of this is true in any way

I think macattack is just trying to argue that the brexit vote was fuelled by knuckle-dragging bigotry, ignorance and racism. Which it surely was, in part.

None of this is true in any way

Facts matter?  In this current culture?  Not so much.   What is popular/unpopular is what matters.   Whoever/whatever influences and/or controls that dialogue has access to the ears, the pockets and the votes.

<p style="padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 12px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; line-height: 1.2em; color: #444444; margin: 1rem 0px !important;">Why did leave win? – a 20 year anti EU propaganda campaign by the barclay brothers, the dirty Digger and Desmond the sleezebag.  these people own a majority of the print press and the TV news takes its ” impartiality” from a mid point of the print media.</p>
<p style="padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 12px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; line-height: 1.2em; color: #444444; margin: 1rem 0px !important;">Thus even smart people end up believing the anti EU propaganda has some basis in fact when actually it does not.</p>

It's IMHO sadly less than political conspiracy.

Frankly it was more about what sells more papers/media than caring one way or another if we were part or not of the EU.

That anti-EU hack Johnson is a perfect micrcosm ... he made money for years writing lots of non-facts he knew were incorrect but that didn't matter so long as he made money from it.

People wanted to buy papers with misleading anti EU rants about straight cucumbers or bunches of bananas.

Whether the Barclay's brothers really wanted out or just wanted to sell more media is lost and IMHO to an extent irrelevant... Boris had his climb to fame but I personally don't think he expected or even wanted to win...

The EU is in a mess... erm yep but not because it's the EU but because it's Europe and the time of world dominance simply by being part of Europe or "The West" is waning... the expectation of I was born in the UK/Europe "so the world owes me a standard of living" can't be met longer term but rather than accept and make the best people want someone to blame.

The arguments of if the vote was binary or not... IMHO are irrelevant as the question made no sense.  A better question might have been "Our standard of living will drop over the next decades do you A) want to try and make the best of it as art of a bigger and more powerful trading block or B) stick your head in the sand and pretend we are the British Empire"

"mass immigration of low skilled , low educated , non english speaking cultures being dumped in the uk for the free health" . Part of that is true TJ. When my wife worked on the kids ward in Leeds General Infirmary, translators were regular visitors as lots of patients relations spoke no, or very little, English.
(I'm not saying they were scrounging as lots may (or may not?) have been supported by their families)

"CaptainFlashheart

Member
As this has now (already!) descended in to being exactly the same thread all over again, can a mod please kill it off?"

Why? Very odd remark.

essel - they do not get access to the NHS without meeting qualification criteria for it or be EU citizens.  You cannot come into the UK simply for healthcare.

<span style="font-size: 12.8px;">[IMG] [/IMG]</span>

Whilst i'm not going to bother reading all that above...i'm fairly certain both sides lied. Project Fear? They continue to lie. Its what politicians do. Constantly. Dont believe a word any of them say and look at things objectively through your own eyes. Then try to look between the bullshit and see what suits you best.

Translators were regular visitors

But what has that got to do with the EU?

Based on the translations in my NHS only some of them are EU languages... and equally the EU is not insisting we provide translators...(and you sure as heck wouldn't get one in France)

The whole chicken and egg is inverted... we are a country that provides translators and many other benefits ... people come and use them (both EU and not) and then we moan.

Some of this is EU.... but most of this isn't... and NHS tourism is an excellent example.

The UK can claim back all the EU health bills ... we just have to bother "filling out the form"..  but we don't bother.

"You cannot come into the UK simply for healthcare."

I know, I was just pointing out that lots of immigrants speak no English. Well at least around Leeds & Bradford. (Funny how since she's been at Harrogate District Hospital she's never even seen or heard a translator)

"But what has that got to do with the EU?"

I was quoting something TJ said.

Whilst i’m not going to bother reading all that above…

And unwittingly, you’ve highlghted one of the root causes of the whole sorry mess.

I know, I was just pointing out that lots of immigrants speak no English.

Sure, what’s your point, caller? Lots of British immigrants to the Costa del Retirement don’t speak Spanish.

For that matter, I frequently see patients waiting with interpreters at hospital in Australia, one of the countries lauded by the brexshiteers for its immigration policies.

Dont believe a word any of them say and look at things objectively through your own eyes. Then try to look between the bullshit and see what suits you best.

Facts 'suit' me best.  Any pointers as to where they are?  How do we look 'between' these two competing claims (for instance):   https://fullfact.org/europe/kettles-are-still-not-about-be-banned-eu

"Sure, what’s your point, caller? Lots of British immigrants to the Costa del Retirement don’t speak Spanish."

I'm aware of that also. I knew of a British bloke who lived in Alfaz del Pi near Benidorm. He owned 10 renty villas & didn't/wouldn't learn to speak a word of Spanish, which I found despicable & basically 'rude' towards his host country. (there'll be a word for what I mean but I can't think of it)
(& before you ask how he managed over there without speaking Spanish, his wife was Finnish but spoke Spanish so she did all the translating)

I know, I was just pointing out that lots of immigrants speak no English. Well at least around Leeds & Bradford.

When was the last time anyone on this forum met an EU citizen living and working in the UK (or in Leeds or Bradford specifically) that didn't speak any English? That's what I thought…

Like everyone else, I voted for what I thought was the best thing at the time. I was politically ignorant.

I'm still ignorant. I do not have a Scooby what our government intends to try and replace membership of the EU with… and so obviously can't support the plan they haven't yet agreed or formed.

why did we lose? it's a question you regularly posit in response to the other thread thm. how do you imagine you win an argument with a section of the electorate who aren't even having the same argument?

'To conclude, my Brexiteer stance IS NOT DUE TO RACISM BUT A PROTEST VOTE FOR THE SHAMBLES THAT PASSES AS POLITICS IN THE UK WHEREBY THE POPULATION ARE TREATED AS STUPID.'

i hate to say it but if your response to 'should the uk leave or remain members of the EU' is to vote leave because you want to give politicians a bloody nose, i wouldn't describe you as stupid or racist, but i might suggest that thinking of the possible consequences might have been worthwhile before you exercised your democratic right to f everything right up for all of us.

I'm going to let my tyres down as a protest against that **** Chris grayling.

That'll learn him.

<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 16px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;">To conclude, my Brexiteer stance IS NOT DUE TO RACISM BUT A PROTEST VOTE FOR THE SHAMBLES THAT PASSES AS POLITICS IN THE UK WHEREBY THE POPULATION ARE TREATED AS STUPID.</span>

My own Brexiteer stance was a vote to protest the changing of Marathon to Snickers.

I can't wait to see the looks on all the racist faces when all the white and light skinned immigrants from the EU are replaced with the brown and dark skinned non-EU ones instead.

Just sit back and let the Brexiteers crack On, Rees Mogg Boris Fox do not have the courage of their convictions to take the reins. They simply want to complain it's not going in the right direction - sorry but they are a spineless bunch of *s.

Power grab politics at its worst - hold the moral high ground and winge like * no matter what happens.

Dogma at its worst...  while the great unwashed want £15 an hour minimum wage and all the immigrants chucked out Rees Mogg will stand up and say "we could have delivred this if only..."

Talentless, sackless, ****wits to a man, they don't even have the balls to oust May.

<p style="padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 16px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; line-height: 1.2em; color: #444444; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 1rem 0px !important;">Binary vote was singularly inappropriate for such a complex issue.</p>
<p style="padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 16px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; line-height: 1.2em; color: #444444; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 1rem 0px !important;">The absence of verifiable facts – on both sides – prior to the vote resulted in voters using what facts they gleaned for themselves allied to their ‘gut’ feel. How many voters ‘gleaned the facts’ from their preferred media outlet – Torygraph, DM etc.</p>
<p style="padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 16px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; line-height: 1.2em; color: #444444; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 1rem 0px !important;">The structure of the vote was too simplistic and, in my view, wrong. Such a hugely important subject should have required something like:</p>
<p style="padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 16px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; line-height: 1.2em; color: #444444; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 1rem 0px !important;">– minimum 75% voter turnout for vote to be valid</p>
<p style="padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 16px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; line-height: 1.2em; color: #444444; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 1rem 0px !important;">and</p>
<p style="padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 16px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; line-height: 1.2em; color: #444444; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 1rem 0px !important;">– minimum of 66% in favour for vote to be carried</p>

@frank I am good with all of that being required for such momentus decisions such as 1) Join EEC/EU, 2) ANY EU treaty such as Maastricht or Lisbon

What a steaming pile of crap is the new forum

Singletrackworld forum en masse for the past fifteen years:

"The status quo is broken, we need change"

Singletrackworld forum en masse for the past eighteen months

"Oh my god, the status quo is brilliant, how on earth could anyone vote to change it?"

Jambalaya

What a steaming pile of crap is the new forum

You took a while, been house hunting for the retirement home on the continent ? 🙂

Can’t believe that they haven’t prepared for the new forum.

Haha, I like it zippy. 🙂

"I can’t wait to see the looks on all the racist faces when all the white and light skinned immigrants from the EU are replaced with the brown and dark skinned non-EU ones instead."

What, like the Goans & Keralans that looked after my Mrs in Harrogate Hospital Intensive Therapy Unit last year?
The ones that have been here for ages anyway?
(utterly fantastic people BTW)

Us stw lefties wanted to end the right wing shitshow that's hammering the poorest and dividing the country ever further.....

Brexshit is just that on steroids, the very opposite of fixing those problems

Remain campaign told at least as many if not more “lies” as part of Project Fear / Armageddon than did Leave.

Bullshit.

I’ve always found it amusing that leave voters have the audacity to refer to the remain campaign as fear mongering when it’s abundantly clear that fear was a primary tool of the leave campaign.

[quote="jambalaya"] Remain campaign told at least as many if not more “lies” as part of Project Fear / Armageddon than did Leave.

Really - name one.  A lie not an opinion you disagree with but a lie to go alongside 350 million for thre NHS

Now that is truely weird - I typed in the square brakets and put Jamablaya and its change to Andy by the forum

[ quote="jambalaya" ]  bla bla bla [ /quote] minus the spaces is what I typed

Poop the forum is so crap I am using it probably 25% of the amount I did before. TBH if my subscription came up for renewal in the near term I’d probably just skip paying the £50 in protest

Cougar that’s a fact I posted. Remain fell over themselves telling lies, 500,000 extra unemployed within 12 months of a Leave vote for starters. A recession deeper than 2008

£363m is the gross amount we send to the EU budget over which we have no control as to how its spent. The whole “Brext Bill” nonsense has shown very starkly that  the real cost of being an EU member has been MUCH MUCH higher

TJ I am happy with Andy

Kimbers I won’t post yet again the map of the UK showing Brexit voting areas but twas the Nirth and the Labour heartlands which won it for Leave, plus of course all the voted we picked up in Scotland

The forum is so crap I am using it probably 25% of the amount I did before.

Every cloud and all that.

Jambalaya,

Genuine question for you. The post I made above was from some causal skimming of posts on the Ref thread a while back.

Are you intending to retire to somewhere within the EU ?

"Are you intending to retire to somewhere within the EU ?"

*I am not Jambalaya*

I know of 3 couples who either have or are retiring to Spain, 2 that have already & one that has bought place to go to next November.
None of them are the least bit arsed about Brexit or the effects on them in Spain.
*I've had a drink & have NO idea what the relevance is but am proud that I can still type* (but pissed off that I still can't put a winkey face on here!)

Cougar that’s a fact I posted.

£363m is the gross amount we send to the EU budget over which we have no control as to how its spent.

The rebate is applied straight away, so the UK never contributes this much.

None of them are the least bit arsed about Brexit or the effects on them in Spain