Forum menu
Oh yay, another brexit thread.
Brexiters have lost the economic argument. You'd have thought they would have had a concrete plan mapped out in the years they have been agitating to leave the EU. The vote goes their way and...nothing.
And that's because they knew that the economy will be damaged by their actions. Most of the political arch brexiters will be well protected from the effects of brexit. This has only ever been about control. They called it sovereignty but its not, and their actions since the vote clearly indicate where this is going.
So first thing they attack the Judiciary, then you have them stating that the press should be "more patriotic", then came the Henry VIII laws bypassing Parliament, and now in the last few days an attack on the civil service. They have targeted the very things that are supposed to hold governments in check/to account.
To conclude, my Brexiteer stance IS NOT DUE TO RACISM BUT A PROTEST VOTE FOR THE SHAMBLES THAT PASSES AS POLITICS IN THE UK WHEREBY THE POPULATION ARE TREATED AS STUPID.
Unfortunately the plan to keep the majority pretty well uneducated is working. Blame the foreigners, blame the EU, blame everyone else for the woes of our own making. It was all too easy.
<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 16px; background-color: #eeeeee;">Ultimately the government, and Tories in particular have used the EU as a scapegoat for their own failings for decades</span>
How dare you!!!!
This can't possibly be true, a decade of austerity, housing crisis, NHS crisis, record food bank use & homelessness are all obviously the fault of the EUSSR.
We should devote all government efforts & £billions to leaving the world's largest free trade bloc regardless of the consequences and the sunlit uplands will be glorious.
Rule Britannia !!!
Oh yay, another brexit thread.
Not sure if trolling or just thick
It concerns me very much that the UK ends up with many politicians from the same gene pool, a career spent in the civil service with no real world experience of the private sector or indeed anything else. Just passing time until they receive a directorship of some City organisation
Just for the record civil servants aren't and in fact can't be politicians.
People voted in the EU referendum based on what politicans said???
I certainly didn't.
OP, the EU referendum campaign probably had no more or less lies than a normal general election, you wouldn't be calling for prosecution if 'your' party didn't win a general election, or would you?
Also, while I'm here, t<span style="font-size: 12.8px;">he hatred towards leave voters on some platforms is akin to the hate illustrated by racists.</span><span style="font-size: 12.8px;"> This is a sad state of affairs IMO. </span>
Oh, and yes I did vote to get rid of paying for yet another layer of men in suits in my life.
How many men in suits have been hired to get rid of men in suits?
"Not sure if trolling or just thick"
Or maybe making an observation, after all it IS another brexit thread, is it not?
Hooray for another brexit thread!
How’s that going for you gerti?
Actually, don’t bother answering: it’s bleedingly obvious.
What is Brexit?
Who cares if we have to hire 30,000 new men in suits to replace the men in suits in Brussels
At least they will be honest to god british civil servants, oh no wait,
civil servants are definitely enemies of the people
Rees-mogg can replace all of them he's incredibly smart on account of his superior breeding and the way he talks down to everyone, you just know he's always right !
now in the last few days an attack on the civil service
I'm reasonably convinced that this is laying the foundations for dismissing the recently leaked economic report saying we're gonna be screwed. Oh that, yeah, pay no heed, it's just corrupt civil servants with an agenda. Something something will of the people democracy brown people.
We're being governed by crooks and people should be going to jail over this.
Rees-mogg can replace all of them he’s incredibly smart on account of his superior breeding and the way he talks down to everyone, you just know he’s always right !
Yet, the "elite" are the enemy.
@zokes Is it? Do enlighten me.
@zippykona Apologies if you missed my toungue in cheek reference to general bureaucracy. In the long term there will be one less layer for my taxes to pay for.
Also, while I’m here, the hatred towards leave voters on some platforms is akin to the hate illustrated by racists. This is a sad state of affairs IMO.
Even if this anecdote has some fact behind it, the obvious mitigation is that leave voters are actually culpable for their choice, which they made of their own free will. They’re all above the age of majority, all responsible for their actions.
Racists on the other hand attack others over things that the victims have little or no control over, and these attacks are based upon prejudice with no factual grounding.
In the long term there will be one less layer for my taxes to pay for.
One less layer? Perhaps.
Less cost? You’re dreaming.
I still don't know what Brexit actually is? Can someone tell me what it will be like?
"We’re being governed by crooks and people should be going to jail over this."
Except It's nothing new Cougar, been going on all my lifetime.
I ****ing despise politicians, the lot of them.
@zokes If you bothered to understand, the point I was making was regarding levels of hate directed at others.
I still don’t know what Brexit actually is? Can someone tell me what it will be like?
No! But we must have it, whatever it is. The people have spoken!
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">@zokes, sorry I didn't realise you were Mystic Meg</span>
I still don’t know what Brexit actually is? Can someone tell me what it will be like?
The Gov have only had 19months, it's definitely Cameron/Corbyn/Remoaners fault that there's no plan whatsoever.
(That & the backstabbing civil servants unable to provide an impact assessment that accurately shows how wondrous Brexit will be!)
Just sing Jerusalem in your head and it'll be like that, only better
Corbyn is just as bad, idealism before people, whipping his people into propping up the Conservatives so he doesn't have to get off the fence and have a policy, to the detriment of all working class people, utter hypocrisy and utterly disgraceful.
Whilst I don't necessarily disagree, nor do I see the relevance to the discussion.
(And TBH, the entire discussion is mostly irrelevant to the OP's question anyway.)
Brexit was a way to get out of being europe's cuck. mass immigration of low skilled , low educated , non english speaking cultures being dumped in the uk for the free health and meal ticket. get a cheque every week and rent paid for, get that back problem cared for, which would never have been attended to from whence they came.Sound like a racist bigot? i can assure you i'm not at all, i'm just stating what the majority of the people see with their own eyes daily but like myself say or do nothing about it. bit to clear coated for you all? btw i didn't vote .
Then there is the trade and business side of it. under the desk envelopes with tax breaks and wishful trade deals with a free industrial site if your company sets up and deals with the uk. But only on eu's terms.
i’m just stating what the majority of the people see with their own eyes daily
No, you're stating what the majority of people are told by the tabloid press daily.
<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 16px;">Brexit was a way to get out of being europe’s cuck. mass immigration of low skilled , low educated , non english speaking cultures being dumped in the uk for the free health and meal ticket. get a cheque every week and rent paid for, get that back problem cared for, which would never have been attended to from whence they </span><span class="skimlinks-unlinked" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 16px; vertical-align: baseline; background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; color: #444444;">came.Sound</span><span style="color: #444444; font-size: 16px;">like a racist bigot? </span>
You see that's the kind of ignorance that's led us into this mess!
Just as many immigrants from EU as non-eu, all of which bring more to the economy than take out.
EU migrants less likely to use NHS & claim benefits than brits
<span style="font-size: 12.8px;">Housing & nhs crisis are the legacy of decades of underfunding & recent austerity, fk all to do with the EU</span>
That's why impact assessments can't show benefits of Brexit, no matter how much Rees-mogg & co try & force it to
Rcmacattack all you are doing is blaming the EU for the failings of our own politicians in Westminster
I'll post my answer in the brexit thread. You know, the thread that should prevent all the remoaning whingers from having to create multiple brexit threads..
@zokes If you bothered to understand, the point I was making was regarding levels of hate directed at others.
Oh I understood perfectly well. I’m simply saying the people who couldn’t be bothered to research the implications of leaving but voted for it anyway have brought it upon themselves. Suck it up, buttercup. You’ll at least have the comfort of even at its worst it only being a fraction of the pain inflicted by racism, which coincidentally increased significantly since the vote.
i’m just stating what the majority of the people see with their own eyes daily
Only the majority of people who have the misfortune of reading the Daily Mail, Express, etc. And even then, they’re not seeing it, they’re just being duped into thinking they’re seeing it by an incompetent government that has managed to paint the EU and immigration as a convenient scapegoat.
I’ll post my answer in the brexit thread. You know, the thread that should prevent all the remoaning whingers from having to create multiple brexit threads..
I assume you’d push for there to only be one thread on bikes too?
Just as many immigrants from EU as non-eu
No, there are fewer EU immigrants, non-EU are the majority. Though it's been relatively close of late. Post-brexit this is a trend I expect to see reverse, we're going to be massively popular to non-EU migration.
EU migrants less likely to use NHS & claim benefits than brits
Yup. And moreover, as a percentage there are more EU migrants working in the NHS than using it. Fewer EU nationals in the UK equates to a bigger strain on the NHS. If you lose 10% of doctors and nurses and 5% of patients*, what's going to happen to queues?
(* random figures for example purposes)
Rcmacattack all you are doing is blaming the EU for the failings of our own politicians in Westminster
Why bother even backing that up with facts? People like him aren't going to change their view no matter what you present. This:
.Sound like a racist bigot?
Is where they're at.
I’ll post my answer in the brexit thread. You know, the thread that should prevent all the remoaning whingers from having to create multiple brexit threads..
Why bother your "answer will only be as empty as your brexiters head's are.
" rmacattack
<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 16px;">mass immigration of low skilled , low educated , non english speaking cultures being dumped in the uk for the free health and meal ticket. get a cheque every week and rent paid for "</span>
Shut the hell up. Really.
Might come across as a personal attack but as you just attacked so many people based on utter junk ...
I know someone that works for local government/ social care for both British and non British people that desperately need help.
There is no magic "straight to the front of the queue" BS you talk of. IT DOES DOES NOT EXIST.
Increasingly she has to rely on charities to pick up the slack that a totally morally bankrupt government has left. For both British and non British citizens. The government doesn't give a fig for your nationality. If you need help you are a burden, nothing more.
Her department is starved of money and people seeking help are having to jump through ever more hoops.
Want to argue this, I'll get her to sign up and post if you wish?
Now go and spout your ignorant BS some where else.
Sorry guys, just such of hearing crap like this !
i’m just stating what the majority of the people see with their own eyes daily
Damn, those foreigners sound as bad as those pesky cyclists. My favourite Brexiters live in Whiteville where 99.99% of people are Caucasian Brits who drive cars everwhere, yet in discussions they reliably inform me they 'see with their eyes daily' a 'massive increase in cycling', so much so that they have to wait behind cyclists who 'now need a whole 2 metres space, and ride 2 abreast'. Not only, but they tell me that cyclists customarily run people over onthe pavement and jump red lights. In fact they no fear for walking because of this massive upsurge of cyclisting. This is intolerable. Along with the awful Eastern-Central-Southern European/Afro-****stani/Bulgaro-Muslim etc benefit-swindling job-stealing mafia on every street corner. I suspect they saw an Albanian immigrant running a car wash once on their travels, but things like that stick in their minds, sharply reminding them that we didnt Churchill Dunkirk to smithereens just to now be taken for fools by those pisstaking dodgy foreign-types. We didn't want peace in Europe, we simply wanted to protect our shores from Jerry. And Janik. And Jamal. Brexit is the new WW2 Spirit. Taking back what is ours. Taking back what was stolen by Johnny Foreigner who made fools of us by coming over here in their billions and taking our money and stealing our jobs, raping our families, ruining our Health Service and refusing to work. /sarcasm off.
You can read stories like theirs every day in the rags. Everyone 'sees it with their own eyes'. Daily. Except those of us who don't. Maybe we don't see the 'cycling menace' because we are cyclists? Hmmm.. let me think...
Are people still saying "remoaners"? How long do we have to wait for them to grow up?
Brexit was a way to get out of being europe’s cuck. mass immigration of low skilled , low educated , non english speaking cultures being dumped in the uk for the free health and meal ticket. get a cheque every week and rent paid for, get that back problem cared for, which would never have been attended to from whence they came.Sound like a racist bigot? i can assure you i’m not at all, i’m just stating what the majority of the people see with their own eyes daily but like myself say or do nothing about it. bit to clear coated for you all? btw i didn’t vote
Yes, if you're poor, uneducated and have a low standard of living and you see that then it's probably a good reason to vote for something different. Life's a bit shit anyway so why not risk a change? That's the problem with dumb people, they are generally heart over head type people who vote based on emotive reasons like immigrants, scroungers and the NHS. I sound like a right snobbish **** but it's the truth.
Curto, CG & Cougar have got to the essence of this.
Binary vote was singularly inappropriate for such a complex issue.
The absence of verifiable facts - on both sides - prior to the vote resulted in voters using what facts they gleaned for themselves allied to their 'gut' feel. How many voters 'gleaned the facts' from their preferred media outlet - Torygraph, DM etc.
The structure of the vote was too simplistic and, in my view, wrong. Such a hugely important subject should have required something like:
- minimum 75% voter turnout for vote to be valid
and
- minimum of 66% in favour for vote to be carried
This would result in a requirement for 50% of the eligible electorate voting in favour.
Cameron's attempted 'negotiations' were based on a sense of entitlement - I'm an old etonian, what could possibly go wrong?; failing to recognise that 27 v 1 was never going to work out well.
Better to be inside the tent ping out than outside the tent ping in.
In other words, stay in the EU and work to achieve much needed reform; outside of the EU, the UK has no chance of achieving any EU reform.
The UK's level of trade dependence on the EU cannot and should not be over-estimated.
We should also be careful about assuming that trade deals with non-EU countries are 'relatively' easy to conclude and can be concluded quickly.
May isn't upto the job; any sane tory would run a mile from the poisoned chalice. Corbyn is incompetent - and too old.
As Mohamed Al-Fayed would have said - what a fuggin' mess.
Are people still saying “remoaners”?
I just read this as ad hom these days. To wit, if all you've got left is insults then it's a clear sign that you've run out of arguments.
That’s the problem with dumb people
With reference to my previous sentence: I don't it's a problem with "dumb" people, I think it's a problem with people who have been systematically lied to, deliberately mislead and are desperate for something better.
Cameron’s attempted ‘negotiations’ were based on a sense of entitlement
Cameron's position was based 100% on the notion that he thought he couldn't lose, and the referendum was an "easy" way to quash the Tory dissenters and the rise of UKIP. He didn't anticipate so many people ticking the "I'm voting this way because Cameron is a ****" box.
Then he walked away despite promising to see it through, proving all the leavers right.
I think it’s a problem with people who have been systematically lied to, deliberately mislead and are desperate for something better
Yeh, you're probably right. I mentioned it in a previous post; it's easy to get a skewed perspective from social media (facebook pages). I don't claim to be Einstein (far from it!) but ****ing hell, some people don't engage their brains, they just end up stuck at immigrants. What's beyond that? What else is worth considering? They've never got there.
In Poland they have this thing called Narodowy Fundusz Zdrowia or National Health Fund, it sounds like a crazy idea where people pay some kind of national insurance and get healthcare. You'll never believe the next bit though! Children, old people and pregnant women get it free!
OP - if you don’t understand, then simply adjust your terms of reference. For example ask
1. Why did we/do we still find it so hard to present a coherent argument on why membership of the EU is a positive thing? Why are remain arguments dominated by why it may be worse if we leave instead of why it will be so much better if we stay?
2. Why does the EU find it so hard to present a coherent argument on why membership is a positive thing? Why is their position focused primarily on ensuring that we must be made to be worse off if we leave?
3. What would need to happen for 1 and 2 to be reversed - or will the fear tactic prevail In perpetuity?
It was suggested above that the use of the term “remoaner” indicates that leavers have lost the argument. Ignoring the fact that they clearly haven’t lost the argument, otherwise we wouldn’t be leaving, you have to recognise that it’s use is very apt. The remain aside has no new argument other that it’s not fair and it’s going to be shit if we leave etc That argument didn’t win in the past, isn’t winning now and probably won’t win in the future
So instead of constant moaning about lies, buses, the media and the stupidity of voters, the remain camp should look in the mirror and ask themselves why did WE fail and why are WE responsible? At the end of the day we lost. We screwed up. We failed to present a coherent case for membership of the EU and we now face the consequences of that failure
Time to stop the cliched blame game and to start taking some responsibility for losing - but as the two threads have shown that is unlikely, extremely unlikely
Fail to learn the lessons of history....
Well there's another example of the simple-mindedness of those who still think Brexit is a good idea. "Let's neatly separate the debate into winning and losing". That makes no sense. However you voted, it you're a citizen of the UK you've lost and so have your children.
Why are remain arguments dominated by why it may be worse if we leave instead of why it will be so much better if we stay?
They’re one and the same. If it’s worse if we leave then QED it’s better if we stay, e.g. leaving means there will be a significant hit to the uk’s economy vs not leaving means there won’t be.
I suppose remain could have argued that there’d be free unicorns for everyone and a moon on a stick in every street...
1) Your protest vote is handing absolute power to the very people you’re protesting against.
Yep this is the pure irony of that taking that position.