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So you run into the problem. If Christianity was the driving force a)why did it take so long and b)why were so many Christians opposed?
This is identical issue to modern politics. Everyone thinks their system of using the tools available will get the best results for everyone. No one can agree on what that is. Christianity's philosophy in that sense is no different. It's Human society working out the best way to get shit done given the framework that they believe/have available at the time.
to answer your questions a) most societies don't change in a revolutionary fashion all that often. I think we're different in the 20/21st C in how fast our world changes. There's a theory that says the rate of change is compressing so fast that even people from 50-60years would struggle to keep up. I think if you dropped the 12th or 13thC peasant into a 15thC world, the difference wouldn't be anything like as pronounced. and b) vested interests, of course. I'd imagine that lots of Kings and the higher echelons of the Church found themselves in pretty comfy positions, why disturb that sweet gig?
The New Testament was written down between 50- 100 years after the events they talk about. In just ancient historic document research terms (what interests me) that’s pretty much as good as it gets.
My point is that the current version of the Bible isn’t that old and there have been various iterations through out time with the story changed to suit the authors of the day. I still find it amazing that if the resurrection did happen why there is no record of the date. Let’s face it the resurrection is at the very centre of Christianity and yet there are no references as to when it happened. As a result Easter floats around the calendar despite being the celebration of the key event of the faith
I still find it amazing that if the resurrection did happen why there is no record of the date
Which date? the one according to the Hebrew Calendar? the Gregorian?, the Julian? And you still need to line up the astronomy. weirdly it's that question that got me started reading about how the early church got itself established, It's genuinely fascinating stuff, it's really a close run thing. We could've all been Saturnalists, or Zoroastrians
Edit: sorry, early BCE Rome could've been those things, it of course doesn't follow that it would've necessarily lasted
There’s an argument that says that our (21st C Northern European) ethics/morals/values are Christian based regardless.
A very weak one. Much stronger is the concept that morals existed because of evolutionary pressure and religions co opted this.
The problem with these discussions is that if you are arguing from false postulates ( " god exists") then you can never reach any valid conclusions.
Much stronger is the concept that morals existed because of evolutionary pressure
You could argue that the evolutionary pressure of "personal survival at all costs" is somewhat antithetical to most religious beliefs. Most aren't full of passages saying "I'm alright, jack" I read a very interesting article that suggested that (in survival terms) having a psychopath in your tribe would be useful benefit. It'll be him that'll take risks to hunt large animals, it'll be him who decides that the tribe has to go to the winter grounds even though old man Ug clearly won't survive the journey. Eskimos even have a phrase for "getting rid of the weird angry man in the tribe quietly on the dodgy ice flow so no-one notices"
If anything, religion's place is to add a moral framework around keeping the more "violent" evolutionary instincts in check, How else you going to make sure the strong young men and the tribe's psycho don't kill everyone and just take over?
is that if you are arguing from false postulates
For clarity once again; Not bought up in the Christian tradition, don't believe in God. Fun discussing it though.
You could argue that the evolutionary pressure of “personal survival at all costs” is somewhat antithetical to most religious beliefs.
You cannot because thats not what happened. co operative groups survived better.
good point.
I'd still say though that the moral framework in 21st C Britain owes more to the centuries of Christian philosophy laid on top of t's society than it does to evolutionary pressure
Nope - christian morals are overlain on top of millennia of evolution of groups of people. christianity is a thin veneer over the top in parts of the world and encompasses so many creeds with such divergent views....................
You could argue that the evolutionary pressure of “personal survival at all costs” is somewhat antithetical to most religious beliefs.
This is a rather simplistic view of evolutionary pressure at least when its applied to a group animal such as ourselves rather than a solitary animal. Cooperation will often give better long term results than completely self centred behaviour. After all doesnt matter how hard you are when you are asleep.
There is some evidence for example in Chimpanzees where smaller males still become dominant by virtue of playing politics.
How else you going to make sure the strong young men and the tribe’s psycho don’t kill everyone and just take over?
Generally by outnumbering them as indeed you covered with your Eskimo example.
christianity is a thin veneer
Hardly. But as your here, I'll bow out of this discussion
Fair point, but people will still behave individually and ask questions if given the opportunity to do so without repercussions.
They did not need christianties permission to think and behave freely. It has been going on since year dot.
But people living in other societies accept limits on personal freedom and autonomy that we in the West would not. Why is that?
If Christianity was the driving force a)why did [abolotion] take so long and b)why were so many Christians opposed?
Because lots of people weren't very good Christians, I would expect.
There’s an argument that says that our (21st C Northern European) ethics/morals/values are Christian based regardless.
A very weak one.
I recommend the book I mentioned twice. It's a good read.
You cannot because thats not what happened. co operative groups survived better.
Indeed. You need to look after your own tribe, but compete against the neighbouring tribes. It's what we see in primate groups and it's what we see in modern human society all the time.
Hardly. But as your here, I’ll bow out of this discussion
FFS sake TJ has god like powers. That is so ****ing unfair.
This is like discussing Harry Potter alternative timelines. Its all bloody imaginary. At least Potter fans know it is imaginary.
RustySpanner has it down 100% .
Of course.
Man created god.
Every single human action, decision and belief is a consequence of the state of human evolution at the time.
Faith, belief and the impact of those intrinsic aspects of human nature are merely reflections of ourselves.
As god does not exist, every action carried out in the name of faith is merely a consequence of human nature. 🙂
Growing up (well, getting older) in the west of Scotland I was taught it was never clever to discuss religion, and I ended up shying away from it all ever since. Hence much respect to @SaxonRider and others for attempting to engage in meaningful discussion. It's not an area I can contribute anything to so it's not for me, but fair play for starting this off.
Hardly.
The image of Jesus as a nordic blond - thats Apollo - they just reused the pictures. Holly and ivy and mistletoe - all pre christian as is eater bunnies and eggs.
Why don't you join the group TJ? It might be better than discussing it here as the point if what @SaxonRider is doing is trying to overcome the mess that this usually turns into
Ten pages and the only "mess" I've seen is from people butting in to whine about what a mess it is before disappearing back under their rock without further contribution.
I’d still say though that the moral framework in 21st C Britain owes more to the centuries of Christian philosophy laid on top of t’s society than it does to evolutionary pressure
Nope – christian morals are overlain on top of millennia of evolution of groups of people. christianity is a thin veneer over the top in parts of the world and encompasses so many creeds with such divergent views………………..
Do either of you actually know or are you just speculating?
Did the spread of Christianity cause a paradigm shift in the morals and behaviours of the great unwashed, or did it just shore up what many people thought anyway? Or is it in fact a little from both columns?
wasn't going to bother contributing to this thread (although it's interesting) because this is (the) one subject you're never going to change anyone's mind on! However this has summed up my thoughts so succinctly & eloquently:
that I'll just +1 it and add, you can argue the minutiae until the cows come home, but that's the truth of it.Man created god.
tjagain
The image of Jesus as a nordic blond – thats Apollo – they just reused the pictures.
Woohoo. My favourite art/religion crossover factoid. And probably a big factor in my adult rejection of religion as opposed to spirituality or morality. At least Islam got round this issue by decreeing that images of god/prophets are forbidden (and created some bloody astonishing art as a result).
Which date? the one according to the Hebrew Calendar? the Gregorian?, the Julian?
I don't understand – if they don't know the exact day of Easter, how do they know that Santa Claus was born on 25th December?
Did the spread of Christianity cause a paradigm shift in the morals and behaviours of the great unwashed, or did it just shore up what many people thought anyway? Or is it in fact a little from both columns?
The god botherers took what people were doing and said "its gods way"
No citations but a fair amount of reading. Its also true that the pre christian influences are everywhere with christianity laid over them. Most cultures have a mid winter festival for example. Our christmas owes more to pre christian tradition than it does to the bible and those pre christian traditions have greater longevity than christian ones
Not to get sidetracked, but surely to God they didn't just overlay Easter on to older pre-christian celebrations that did move around a bit due to the phases of the moon and it's supposed effect on agriculture? Yule be saying Christmas isn't real next...
Which date? the one according to the Hebrew Calendar? the Gregorian?, the Julian?
i don’t care which calendar you use. If the resurrection took place it happened on a specific day. Why is that date on any calendar known. The gospels wax lyrically about it and no one thought to say what day it was?
Man created god.
Every single human action, decision and belief is a consequence of the state of human evolution at the time.
Faith, belief and the impact of those intrinsic aspects of human nature are merely reflections of ourselves.
As god does not exist, every action carried out in the name of faith is merely a consequence of human nature. 🙂
Equally you can say that man created love. Many things, good and bad are done in the name of love. Wars have started and peace has been forged because of love. Yet we can't see it, touch it, evidence its existence in the normal scientific ways. Are you telling me that love doesn't exist?
God might be a human construct, but doesn't mean s/he isn't real.
Yup - pre christian spring festival of fertility - hence bunnies and eggs. Its rumpy pumpy time!
Sorry TJ, I was being a bit facetious.
the first mention of Easter/ Eostre is Bede. 8thC, and he's writing from a purely Christian perspective, and is linking it with Paschal (Greek) and Passover (Hebrew) hence the confusion about the date (all three use different calendars). he links it to an Anglo Saxon celebration, but he's very careful to say that Jesus celebrations have replaced it. It's not clear if he's just making it up, or whether he's trying to add a varnish of history of Christian/Easter celebration going back to when Jesus was alive - type propoganda. (not unlike the sorts of family trees for Kings you see with history going back to Adam)
If there was spring fertility festival anywhere, celebrated before it's not been written down. (like much of pre-Christian records) I think it's highly likely there was one though, like Shortest day/longest day, I don't doubt the equinox's were also celebrated.
Xmas is thought probably to be Saturnalian in provenance
If there was spring fertility festival anywhere, celebrated before it’s not been written down. (like much of pre-Christian records)
This above is an example of most of the incorrect stuff that you have posted here. I think you know its incorrect.
1) Knowruz.
2) Passover, long before jesus.Came from Caananite festival of barley harvest.
3) Shemu the egyptians, recorded in heiroglyphics since 2700 BC. Some possibly earlier.
Also easter - timing of the rules were set by the first council of nicaea in 325. So Bede is 400 years late.
If the resurrection took place it happened on a specific day. Why is that date on any calendar known
Because the Hebrew calendar uses moon phases to start the year. The new year is fixed at Aviv (the Lunar new year) and is called Nisan, from there you can work out the Paschal Seder (Feast of Passover), where we get to be pissed as a Mitzvah (hoorah)
How come you don't know any of this stuff, I thought you all went to Sunday school?
Haven't linguists proposed earlier (pre-Bede) variations/antecedents of Eostre? To be fair though, I don't think anyone's found a prior link between those deities and any festival.
Did the spread of Christianity cause a paradigm shift in the morals and behaviours of the great unwashed, or did it just shore up what many people thought anyway?
It's more the small details that made a difference. I'm just citing what I've read from memory but women in Europe were afforded greater rights (e.g. the ability to own property) to a greater extent than in other parts of the world, and it is suggested that this is because Jesus teaches that everyone is equal before God.
Now I appreciate this is a massive topic so don't shoot me, that's just what I read.
Ten pages and the only “mess” I’ve seen is from people butting in to whine about what a mess it is before disappearing back under their rock without further contribution.
I don't think it's a mess yet but it's going the usual way of comments like 'god botherers'. I think @SaxonRiders idea was to have some sort of meeting rather than start a thread to cover the same ground as usual in the same way
This above is an example of most of the incorrect stuff that you have posted here
Nowruz is a new year celebration,
Passover isn't a spring fertility right.
Shemu is the other end of the year and it's a harvest festival.
Also easter – timing of the rules were set by the first council of nicaea in 325
My understanding is they tried and failed, no? Plus they would've referred to it as Pascha
I've said that I don't doubt spring fertility celebration that were pre-Christian took place. Lots of the northern European ones that were being celebrated in places where Christianity replaced the local religions in Europe weren't written down.
You seem to think I've an agenda, i haven't, I'm just shooting the shit like the rest of the people on this thread. This is just stuff I've read, listened to to and a couple of my close friends are medieval literature lecturers at Manchester uni, and we've often had this discussion -That's as close to expert as I am. (ie not very)
Any mistakes are my own.
Nowruz (Persian: نوروز, pronounced [nowˈɾuːz]; lit. 'new day') is the Persian-language term for the day of the Iranian New Year,[24] also known as the Persian New Year.[25] It begins on the spring equinox[26] and marks the beginning of Farvardin,
Passover if you read about it became merged with the resserrection.
Shemu is in spring as the barley grows during the winter in egypt. It starts in May.
I’m just citing what I’ve read from memory but women in Europe were afforded greater rights (e.g. the ability to own property) to a greater extent than in other parts of the world
You would need to compare Europe against the control groups in the Orthodox church areas to see if Christianity did have that impact.
I would say though womens rights were highly variable throughout Europe and at different periods of time so I doubt it would stand up to scrutiny.
I would say though womens rights were highly variable throughout Europe and at different periods of time so I doubt it would stand up to scrutiny.
Right but overall were women better off in Europe than elsewhere?
Shemu is the other end of the year and it’s a harvest festival.
I think I had that on the Dreamcast.
@5plusn8 are any of those being displaced by overlaid Christian celebrations though. (think carefully about the passover one).
That's the point up thread that @TJagain is making; that early Christian sects used already existing spring fertility right festivals and replaced the original deities with Christian ones. Bede says the word is Old English/German and talks about a Goddess of that name - but he's not clear about his references or sources, as she doesn't exist in written form before Bede writes it down in Passages of Time (or whatever his book is called)
displaced by overlaid Christian celebrations though. (think carefully about the passover one).
a) They don't need to be displaced to show that clearly humans celebrated a spring festival long before they invented christianity.
b) Lots of christians and abrahamic religiosn call passover pascha, which they also use to mean jesus, they were merged, and then split apart again.
Anyway I thoiught TJ used a magic spell and drove you away?
Right but overall were women better off in Europe than elsewhere?
Where and when? It varies massively over time and location which isnt a great indicator Christianity was helpful. Indeed if we look at Europe its rather striking that as Christianity took more of a backseat womens rights improved.
We might not have written sources for these 'takeovers', but the pre-Christian Romans are pretty well evidenced in their co-opting of local deities and festivals everywhere they conquered. I think it's a pretty safe assumption to suspect that the early Christian Church (so effectively the Romans) carried on the same strategy when they all converted under Theodosius.
Resurrection cults existed long before Jesus also.
Innana 4000BCE celebrated at the spring equinox, Horus/Osris 3100BCE celebrated in spring (emergence), Dionysus 1300BCE celebrated in Jan(planting) and April (harvest).
Cybele an anatolian goddess was reborn again every spring. 600 BCe
The Iranians invented Zoroastrianism about the same time as christianty and it followed a similar story.
All this stuff is just cross fertilisation of ideas, and just goes to prove that people would fall for any old shit back then like they do today.
This is like discussing the history and significance of snake oil salesmen in the 1800's west.
People manipulate other people to control them for their own ends, profit, power, narssicism, whatever.
"Studying" theology just lends credence to religion when actually it is a corrisive and repulsive concept.
It like those Universitys that give degrees in "naturopathy".