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As one of the 'good guys' on here, I wish you all the best SaxonRider.
However I won't be taking part.
I've always thought of many Religious leaders as being 'arrogant' in believing their 'way' is the only 'way' and others should be recruited into their 'club', although this is not what you are about SaxonRider.
But I'm sure that if I was in a burning building with little means of escape then I would be praying to something or someone to save me.
My belief is simple - treat others as you would like to be treated yourself, also try to be kind.
I'm more in the listen to science than the made up stories of religion camp. However it would be a great day if the Pope could have a little word in Putin's ear and get him to stop being a murderous, disgusting excuse for a human being.
Interesting project. I've no wish to see myself on YouTube but would be okay to contribute online stuff. Questions, thoughts, whatever. Good luck with it and happy to help.
However it would be a great day if the Pope could have a little word in Putin’s ear and get him to stop being a murderous, disgusting excuse for a human being.
It would be an even greater day if the Russian Orthodox Patriach Kirill were to do the same:
Bunnyhop sums it up pretty well for me.
But I’m sure that if I was in a burning building with little means of escape then I would be praying to something or someone to save me.
If you look deep into all religious teachings, you will realise that at the end of the day they might guide you in a certain path but you still need to walk the path in life yourself. They are no one there to force people at the gun point to follow their guide (unless you are unfortunate to live in certain parts of the world - those are wrong teachings).
Different religion suits different people but the message is almost the same. Walk your own path in life but choose the guide (religion) that suits you best and your lifestyle. Obviously this message is sometime lost in translation because those who teach also wish to earn a living too and when there is money (large sum) involve there is temptation.
Praying is actually a way to instill discipline and hope in someone to do good. A reminder of the teaching.
Why would one need discipline or hope in order to do good? Indeed why does anybody need a guide on how to best live their life? More importantly, @saxonrider have you ever been out for a ride whilst wearing your vestments? I really, really hope you have
Different religion suits different people but the message is almost the same.
Shut up, work hard, do what you're told, and after a short, sh!t life you'll be rewarded with eternal bliss. But don't kill yourself to get there quicker because you can't tolerate your sh!tty life; we need you to farm and pay your taxes, keeping us in the lifestyle to which we've become accustomed - so we've made suicide a mortal sin. You're welcome.
have you ever been out for a ride whilst wearing your vestments?
If SR is female then I may have driven pastor.
I am agnostic rather than atheist as the atheist argument is an odd one as most atheists seem to know there aren’t gods as much as religious people know there are so both are just beliefs.
I believe that Dawkins holds much the same view for much the same reasoning. I disagree (with both of you), I'm more of the Russell's Teapot persuasion myself.
Bunnyhop sums it up pretty well for me.
Lost me at the 'burning building' bit. There's an adage that goes something like "there are no atheists in foxholes" and it makes me really uncomfortable, it's the sort of special pleading that Catholicism in particular excels at. "You say you're an atheist but you're not really are you, you'll soon come running back when you're dying." No, no I really won't and it's offensive and disrespectful to my beliefs to suggest that it must be otherwise.
‘Men over 40 who like to be left alone’?
There's a quote for the spine of the next issue. 😁
I possibly have some small equivalent of your theological expertise in an aspect (Art History / Art Criticism Theory) of my field, but if I thought there was any interest in an online STW discussion of the impact of art on culture and society
I wonder whether there's legs in this, you know. The STW forum is notorious famous for being dripping with specialists in every field under the sun (literally in Welshfarmer's case😁). Maybe we could set up a semi-regular thing like we did with the quiz (grat plug, next one coming soon), some form of 'ask me anything' affair with folk with interesting backgrounds?
Maybe we could set up a semi-regular thing like we did with the quiz (grat plug, next one coming soon), some form of ‘ask me anything’ affair with folk with interesting backgrounds?
I love this idea. Being an unrepentant nerd, I love learning more about pretty much everything. Especially maths.
I do!
Bunnyhop sums it up pretty well for me.
Lost me at the ‘burning building’ bit
Sums it up not focus on one specific sentence. Most religious leaders could do a lot more good than they do.
+1 for what bunnyhop said. I didn't want to stir the pot by talking of the arrogance, but I'm glad I'm not the only one to think that way.
In a burning building, I wouldn't be praying to anyone, mythical or real, I'd just be hoping that someone would come.
there are medical doctors on this forum who kindly give advice when we ask, and when we have had historical/religious discussions on here, I have tried to share things that I know about.
That analogy works. As long as it's all equally evidence-based... 🙂
^ I disagree. Religions are a belief system, so it's perfectly reasonable for an expert / academic who has studied belief systems, and as SR has already said how those belief systems are communicated, to share their expert knowledge with others.
Whether it's proven or not is irrelevant, I'm interested to understand someone's beliefs even if they aren't mine.
Monotheism sucks, the greek, norse, roman etc much more fun. besides "Space, is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mind-bogglingly big it is." so makes sense that it was a team effort.
Just checking in on this thread... Ah yes, as predicted, it's descended into the age-old debate of religion's pointless/toxic, religion's not pointless/toxic. As you were...
I like(or at least find telling/interesting) that all this heresy isnt now subject to horrific torture and death by fire.
Oh how religion has moved on 😆
Just checking in on this thread… Ah yes, as predicted
Might've helped you if you'd actually read it rather than 'checked in' just to throw peanuts.
Religions are a belief system, so it’s perfectly reasonable for an expert / academic who has studied belief systems, and as SR has already said how those belief systems are communicated, to share their expert knowledge with others.
This is where I fell down with RE at school. It wasn't education, it was christian dogma. I think I'd have been much more engaged if it'd been "the Christians believe this whereas the Muslims believe that and the Sikhs think this..." rather than five years of mandatory Aesop's Fables presented as fact. The theology side of it is interesting to me, the worshipping not so much.
Might’ve helped you if you’d actually read it rather than ‘checked in’ just to throw peanuts.
I doubt you can convince me it would have been worth my time.
the Christians believe this whereas the Muslims believe that and the Sikhs think this…
I think RE is much more like that these days. Like you, when I did an RE O-level it was confined to a study of a few cherry-picked bits of the KJV of the New Testament. Actually, not really a study, more of a 'memorise this and regurgitate it in the exam'.
I just admit that I live (I think I live) in a world (environment) that I don't understand in any way.
But for me, all religous doctrines and beliefs seem to quote texts and writing that have been written by a human being. And that human being has no more knowledge of what life is all about than I do. They may think they do, but they don't.
I’d be interested to know who’s right, the Russian or Ukrainian Orthodox priests, both of whom seem pretty convinced God is on their side.
I think only in a Far Side cartoon has a general ever stood in front of his troops and said "We're stuffed men, God is on their side today"
Maybe we could set up a semi-regular thing like we did with the quiz (grat plug, next one coming soon), some form of ‘ask me anything’ affair with folk with interesting backgrounds?
I love this idea. Being an unrepentant nerd, I love learning more about pretty much everything. Especially maths.
That idea might just have some legs.
@masterdabber sums it up for me. At least science doesn't pretend to know everything. That's built into the whole hypothesis/theory/peer review thing.
That said I applaud @saxonrider for attempting to open up discourse even if I think it unlikely that I will take part.
I'd be interested. I am not of faith but interested in philosophy and find religion to be a useful source. I am also interested in considering the meaning of God (I have some ideas on possible interpretations).
I also have a think with the personification of God and fundimentally believe this is one of the tools that has been miss used by people to currupt religion both for political mass gains and for personal excusing their own behaviour and creation double standards and excusing their own behaviour rather than excepting their own behaviour is bad.
Anyway if you want to talk send me a message but due to the crap messages on this forum I might miss it as I primarily browse on a mobile.
I doubt you can convince me it would have been worth my time.
Yet here you are.
The single biggest question must be - how (and why) did a Canadian living in Cardiff become a priest in the Russian orthodox church?
there are medical doctors on this forum who kindly give advice when we ask, and when we have had historical/religious discussions on here, I have tried to share things that I know about.
That analogy works. As long as it’s all equally evidence-based… 🙂
^ I disagree. Religions are a belief system, so it’s perfectly reasonable for an expert / academic who has studied belief systems, and as SR has already said how those belief systems are communicated, to share their expert knowledge with others
Whether it’s proven or not is irrelevant, I’m interested to understand someone’s beliefs even if they aren’t mine.
For sure there's scholarship. But the analogy was with medical doctors giving advice, presumably health advice, on here. This is generally based on scientific evidence, as far as possible, and they'll say if they're going beyond this. I don't think any similar advice from an unfalsifiable religious perspective is in the same category at all.
For sure you can talk history/anthropology/sociology/personal experience of being a minister etc, but that's not what was being advanced.
The analogy only works if doctors were giving advice on the history of medicine, not on actual evidence based medicine. So the second flippant comment on the thread about crystals or whatever, which drew a tetchy response from the OP, I think was making a reasonable point.
The single biggest question must be – how (and why) did a Canadian living in Cardiff become a priest in the Russian orthodox church?
Simple. Mother is British. Father is Russian-German (ethnic Germans who had colonised Southern Russia (today’s Ukraine) in the 18th century). My paternal grandparents spoke both German and Ukrainian. Both sets of grandparents emigrated to Canada - the latter as refugees from the Bolsheviks.
Lots of ethic compatriots also became Orthodox.
I did my PhD and post-doc in Wales, and stayed.
Mystery solved.
Thanks SR; that background merits a discussion in it's own right!
But for me, all religous doctrines and beliefs seem to quote texts and writing that have been written by a human being. And that human being has no more knowledge of what life is all about than I do. They may think they do, but they don’t.
But they might. Take away the worshipping deity bit and most religions boil down to a means to look after your own mental health and a code of ethics/morals. We're perfectly happy to pay for life coaches and fitness coaches, to buy their books and follow their "teachings" on YouTube and the likes. Why can't it be that some people have a better understanding of these other issues than you do?
have never been religious but I am agnostic rather than atheist as the atheist argument is an odd one as most atheists seem to know there aren’t gods as much as religious people know there are so both are just beliefs.
I’m an agnostic atheist inasmuch as certain claimed deities (including the Judeo Christian one according to all historical/scientific evidence to which I’ve been privy) I fully believe AFAICS that they are patently man-made (hence ‘atheist’) because I have no belief in them/disbelieve them, whereas the wider question to cosmic/supernatural/creator-being/s? Well, I have no compelling knowledge, experience or evidence of such a thing - hence ‘agnostic’. ie don’t know/don’t know if such would even be possible to know.
But back on topic - good luck with your venture OP. As landlord/priest you could invert/one-up my old landlord/local with a sign above the bar which instead reads ‘yes religion and yes politics’ 😉
Take away the worshipping deity bit and most religions boil down to a means to look after your own mental health and a code of ethics/morals.
I can see that. Identify yourself as someone who needs answers and reassurance, however tenuous, to some of life's big conundrums and unknowns or your mental health will take a battering and a bit of a moral handrail thrown in for good measure and a religion with a good dollop of deity is just the ticket.
Beyond that some people in organised religion can be fundamentally good people with people skills too. I spent time with a local minister after my father died. He knew I was an atheist and in all the time I spent with him religion was never mentioned but he did a wonderful job of helping me in a time of stress regardless.
SR's family backstory is really interesting and I agree with above, it is worthy of more of a discussion. A tiny bit disappointing too. The conviction in their belief that so many people of faith have to me is always rather tempered when it is revealed that their choice of that specific profoundly held belief structure basically comes down to family tradition. If you crossed the road to club in the building opposite, your mam would chop your bollocks off - end of. I've always had a bit more respect for those people with religious faith that selected their faith of choice in a more open minded way.
singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/a-proposal-for-the-whole-stw-community/page/4#post-12375100
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64% of the Nobel price winners believe in God. How does your intellect compare against them to say such a thing?
@SaxonRider Please cover the misconception that God and science are mutually exclusive. Another misconception is that "science is not a belief system".
This will be a good start I think
64% of the Nobel price winners believe in God. How does your intellect compare against them to say such a thing?
Probably quite well - they're Nobel prize winners in their speciality, and that's it. I bow down to Einstein's knowledge of Relativity, but his opinion on cooking or football or religion? Not so much.
64% of the Nobel price winners believe in God. How does your intellect compare against them to say such a thing?
It is a fair bit lower than the proportion of the global population who belive in sort sort of diety.
I’m less interested in an event mc’ed/chaired/curated by a person of faith with the purpose of explaining that faith as I would be in an event where that person put themselves forward as essentially an articulate ‘exhibit’.
I think that was the idea no? The suggestion was not to talk about the OP's actual religion, but to talk about theology. That means talking about religion in general, and that includes whether it is good or bad, why people believe in it, and wether or not God exists or if it is all in fact bollocks.
If you assert that it is bollocks, you are starting a theological argument that is perfectly valid. There is a lot to learn for anyone who likes to think, even if you aren't religious.
I offered to chair it, and I'm an atheist. Would that make it more interesting?
Here’s the puzzle, how can a seemingly intelligent person actually believe this twaddle.
A great question, why don't you join in and find out 🙂 oh and if you think you're the clever one answer this: why was there a big bang?
64% of the Nobel price winners believe in God.
Draw a Venn diagram with the US, specifically the American mid-south "Bible Belt", then let's look at those numbers again.
Please cover the misconception that God and science are mutually exclusive.
They aren't. Though they're awkward bedfellows.
Another misconception is that “science is not a belief system”.
Science isn't a belief system, it's the diametrical opposite. Science does not require belief. Science wants to be proven wrong. This is how we learn things.
I haven't read the whole thread so sorry if this has been covered but my understanding on religions is...
Humans are rubbish at understanding their lives have no purpose so create belief systems that create a purpose. This can be 'I exist to make humanity better through my endeavours' or 'I exist to do the bidding of a higher being" or "I exist for a future purpose that I do not yet know" but basically it is to distinguish their short existence and its value from that of a buttercup or a woodlouse.
Once they have decided there is a 'reason' they exist then they have to do things to show they know about this reason. People try to make humanity better, perhaps through science or acts of kindness but it is their judgement of what they think makes stuff better, or possibly what other people suggest they should do. People existing for the bidding of a higher being are just laying themselves open for someone to declare themselves the voice of that higher being and being told what they should be doing, much the same as those with the unknown future purpose.
The ones doing the telling might fit into any one of the three categories and are not necessarily trying to exploit the others. Most religions start in desert areas where people are in hostile environments and really want to know that there is some reason for them being there. The religions create rules for them to live by. Many of these start out as basically health and safety which is why there are so many food related religious edicts. Don't eat pork - it goes bad really quickly in deserts, similarly with shellfish etc. Make sure your meat is properly butchered so it doesn't go bad etc.
Once all the easy stuff have been made into rules then you need to be different to the other religions or your followers might leave so you add some extra ones which don't make as much sense. Once you have done this you can laugh at the other groups with their silly rituals while you do your sensible ones. You can then try to kill the other groups because they laughed at you.
When they are not doing silly rituals or killing each other they can go back the their origins of trying to be helpful by creating a sense of belonging, making people think there is a reason to exist and holding village fetes.
I will pause here for today
if you think you’re the clever one answer this: why was there a big bang?
‘Appeal to Ray Comfort’ fallacy? 😉