[Closed] A nice chat about faith?

10 quid says that there will be more UKIP voters found in any given church on a Sunday in comparison the normal population, at a statistically significant level.

Unless it's a church full of Nigerian immigrants etc.

Ha! Quite possible ture.

I wonder how that stat would hold up if you normalised for the age bias that both UKIP and Anglican church congregations have?

I wonder how that stat would hold up if you normalised for the age bias that both UKIP and Anglican church congregations have?

There is that.

Damn you, it's just old people I hate then.

An edict from some "people of faith", earlier...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-declares-all-atheists-are-terrorists-in-new-law-to-crack-down-on-political-dissidents-9228389.html

Faith is not a dirty word, some here try to make it one but it's not. A world without faith would be a lesser place.

and here's Richard being, er, strident...

A world without faith would be a [s]lesser[/s] better place.

How divine.

Can't decide if the OP is being very brave/naive posting that on here or if he is trolling.

Shame that it brings out all the shouty antireligious types to mock.

Have to agree, I have not met a person of any faith - Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or Jews - that have been in any way intolerant or antagonistic to people of other faiths or people like me with no faith. I know the intolerant zealots exist in all faiths, just I've not met any.

jambalaya - Member
Faith is not a dirty word, some here try to make it one but it's not. A world without faith would be a lesser place.

They have to appear nice otherwise the kids wouldnt trust em.

[img] ?itok=bqoI3-9N[/img].

I'm not [i]religious[/i] but I was sat in the sauna talking to three Muslims a couple of weeks ago talking about faith/ISIL etc and I said 'I'm not religious but when I'm in the middle of woods on a Sunday morning I feel closer to God'. One said that was beautiful.

That is me.

OMG, I've just agreed with jambalaya!

Faith can truly bring people together

Shame that it brings out all the shouty antireligious types to mock.

Oh, the ironing. 😆

I'd echo that, with the caveat that it does make some folk more easy to manipulate, and not always in a good way.

So, not, then...

Faith can truly bring people together

So can traffic jams. So what?

On a more serious note, how would you know if you'd met a Quaker?

Like I suspect most people I have no interest in religion except where it affects me and mine. However this can manifest itself in different ways. There are bishops in the House of Lords, there are faith schools and Iam sure governments do occasionally listen to faith charities. This is not necessarily bad, churches are hopefully looking out for poor people but we need to be careful. For instance large areas of the city I live in have only recently acquired pubs as the council back in the day were Methodists!

German Army in WWI 'we have God on our side'
British Army in WWI 'we have God on our side'

So if hes on both sides?

"He's", er, not...

Personally I think anything that makes you feel better and kinder towards the world and people around you, be it a single god, a melange of gods or a spagetti bowl of them, then good on you.

I have always felt religion is great, until people get involved.

Going back to the teaching or RE, i was taught by catholic monks and used to get really pissed off when they couldnt asnswer a question they just said that you need to have faith - AAAAAAAAAGH

I used to believe when I was younger based on Fear of burning for eternity (not love/compassion/faith) but don't now after 50yrs of seeing what its all really about (Control/Fear OH and Money) and so for That reason 'Im out'.
I just try to live my life being as nice as possible and helping people when and where I can, and im sure we'll ALL find out one day 🙂
and im sure IF there is a Big invisible man in the sky he/she will understand my reasoning 😆

It's the pleasant ones you have to look out for. Those are the ones who burn crosses on peoples lawns, hang black people, lynch gay people or gas Jews for the lolz.

They are pleasant because they would rather follow social convention or herd mentality, which leads to the above. They aren't actually nice people, they just seem it on the surface.

That's like saying ban politics because of the naz... whoops, I mean because of stalin. Near Godwin. The point is to have [i]nice [/i]politics...

Anyway, being nice on the surface is good enough for me, who knows/cares what folk are like deep down? If being a Quaker, Buddhist, provisional wing of the CoE or other religions that say the nice will inherit the earth makes the 'social convention' folk act nicer than they otherwise would, isn't this a good thing?

According to George Michael "you got to have faith" so there.

From my school in the 60's (and this is true) -

Good morning boys, I am Mr Davies your new RI teacher.

Good morning Mr Davis.

Ok before we proceed with this mornings lesson, I would like to know if anyone one amongst you does not believe in God?

School rebel Mike X - I don't believe in God Mr Davies

(Mr Davies) Could you please come hear.

At this point Mr Davies knocks Mike x all round the classroom with some serious physical contact.

(Mr Davies) Do you believe in God now Michael ?

(Mike X) - Yes Mr Davies.

(Mr Davies) OK go and sit down, so we can continue with the lesson

:o(

Harsh. My RE teacher (in the 80s) was very much the [i]nice jumper-wearing type[/i], but contrary to ajantom's points she was very clearly Christian and taught us RE on the basis of "Let's spending five minutes laughing at what these silly foreign people believe. Look their God is an elephant! Right, now here's the real truth." 😕

Shame, despite not being religious I do think that learning about religions can be a valuable insight into other philosophies and cultures.

I'd like to believe that things have changed, but our four year old attends a [i]supposedly[/i] secular state school said to me the other day [i]"Daddy I know a story that is actually really true. Really. God made people out of clay. [Headmistress] told us."[/i] 🙄

Yep Religious Education should be learning and studying religion not practicing one of them.

By the age of 5 my lad came home from his very CofE school and said "There isn't really a God is there?"

I was really proud of him, and it opened up an easy conversation about how the important thing is to be nice to each other.

Have to agree, I have not met a person of any faith - Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or Jews - that have been in any way intolerant or antagonistic to people of other faiths or people like me with no faith. I know the intolerant zealots exist in all faiths, just I've not met any.

I've met several thoroughly unpleasant Christians. Hope that helps.

Shame that it brings out all the shouty antireligious types to mock.

So it does, all one of them.

In fact, the number of shouty anti-religious types on this thread is fewer than the number of people complaining about them.

TBH my personal experience of religious people stopped me from completely going off the rails. I met some real strong/good role models who had strong faith. Who gave up their spare time from busy lives/with children to improve and help those around them.

When we hear of religion we all seem to think of the negative side and not the good that it can also bring out in people.

Anyway.

This whole religious / non-religious people are this, that and the other is a load of pish. It's a rash generalisation, we're attaching a label to the demographic of 'people' and then trying to prove a point with it.

The fact of the matter is much simpler. Some people are nice, some people are not so nice. Some are downright bloody nasty. Some help their fellow man, some are generous to a fault, some are wholly self-centred. All of this is irrespective of whether they're religious, irreligious or anti-religious; so cherry-picking "oh, my mate Geoff is an Atheist / Christian / Seventh Day Advent Hoppist and he's lovely" is pointless.

Religion does have powers of persuasion (by definition, otherwise it would've gone away by now) and so it's possible that some chapters may seek to better people, and equally some may have the opposite goal. But they're not mutually dependant; any community (or even a personal desire to better yourself) can promote personal growth, and conversely it's quite possible to attend churches, clubs, community centres and still be a shithead.

TBH my personal experience of religious people stopped me from completely going off the rails. I met some real strong/good role models who had strong faith. Who gave up their spare time from busy lives/with children to improve and help those around them.

and im sure IF there is a Big invisible man in the sky he/she will understand my reasoning

I don't go to church, I did get married in one - some of my mates are very keen Christians, but I think of myself more humanistic with a moral code based on Christianity because that's what we had in school.

My 2p:

I've met a few religious types who want to save the rest of us, but they're very much in the minority and typically have some sort of mild mental health issue to accompany it - their faith is typically just a tool they use to justify their actions - I put the current crop of psychopaths and plain evil ****ers murdering people in the same broad category, although their condition is anything but "mild" -it's not about faith in the same way 'The Troubles' had nothing to do with Catholics and Protestants - it's more to do with control and frankly - well we brought it on ourselves (Western World) we created the perfect breeding ground for it.

A lot of people have used Faith to serve themselves from the creation of the CoE largely so he could remarry and all the murdering that went along with it - to the persecution of Buddhists in China and Tibet when China declared Religion to be poison and all that.

But in the grand scheme of things Religion has been a hugely positive thing for the human race - people will genuinely try their best to help people they've never met because it's the right thing to do - not because they're told to or because they think they'll be rewarded.

Different Faiths do indeed feed the hungry and shelter the poor.

In my experience the most vocal people when it comes to religion are those who call themselves Atheists or whathaveyou (I see there's some argument over the terms) they're the first to start soapboxing, the most certain that people with different views need to be saved - some have their reasons, some have decided it because of reasoned thought - but quite a lot (IMO) are just to arrogant to accept their might be a higher power than their own.

but quite a lot (IMO) are just to arrogant to accept their might be a higher power than their own

just to arrogant to accept their might be a higher power than their own.

You're stepping into territory that dereknightrider and TheBrick touched on there.

I doubt that many, if any, atheists would be short-sighted enough to think that humans were the absolute pinnacle of evolution and the very best possible thing that the universe is capable of.

We only have a sample size of one habitable planet and there are potentially billions upon billions of them out there.

Atheism doesn't reject that. Neither does it arrogantly state that we know everything (as dereknightrider tried to imply).

Atheism is just the rejection of a belief in religious deities - nothing more.

that the people I meet at church-I accompany Mrs.C now and again-are often the most decent, kind and helpful people I know.

I think church goers are like all cross sections of the community. You get some gooduns and you get some baduns. For me, my experience of church goers is the complete opposite and couldn't possibly have found a more vile, back stabbing self-righteous cross-section of community if I had tried.

Try the Quakers - amazing power of silence and prayer without the unnecessary liturgy and adornments.

I see there's some argument over the terms

The terms are pretty well defined, I thought? They only really get wooly when someone posits some form of "you can't be an atheist / agnostic because of some logic failure or misunderstanding I've just made up" type of argument.

Atheism is the rejection of the belief in god(s), agnosticism is ostensibly "I neither believe not disbelieve." Which is why I laughed like a drain at Derek's argument on the first page, which was broadly:

"Everyone with a belief system different from mine is stupid."

"Oh? Why, what do you believe?"

"I don't know."

Try the Quakers - amazing power of silence and prayer without the unnecessary liturgy and adornments.

Also, great breakfasts.

in the grand scheme of things Religion has been a hugely positive thing for the human race

Wow.

GrahamS - Member
just to arrogant to accept their might be a higher power than their own.
You're stepping into territory that dereknightrider and TheBrick touched on there.

I doubt that many, if any, atheists would be short-sighted enough to think that humans were the absolute pinnacle of evolution and the very best possible thing that the universe is capable of.

We only have a sample size of one habitable planet and there are potentially billions upon billions of them out there.

Atheism doesn't reject that. Neither does it arrogantly state that we know everything (as dereknightrider tried to imply).

Atheism is just the rejection of a belief in religious deities - nothing more.

I didn't imply atheists state they know everything, other than my early 'just as stupid as theists' throwaway comment which was I accept a tad flippant, I pointed out that they had made their mind up there is no God or Supreme being or deity, which they can't possibly know, so they are as wrong as those who do.

Atheists not arrogant? That's a new one, I must frame that.

I worked with a man for several years who was super religous. We used to have interesting debates about it quite often. I decided to stop debating when he said he believed that I should renounce my homosexual friends ,because they were going to burn in hell and deserved to do so!
My nana thought her the sun shone out of her local vicars arse , until he was convicted of fiddling with kids.

IMO there's good and bad in all walks of life ,it just seems alot of the bad is done in various religions name. Which removes the Faith for me.

I've met a few religious types who want to save the rest of us, but they're very much in the minority

and typically have some sort of mild mental health issue to accompany it

I consider myself Atheist not Agnostic because I choose not to believe in the existence of God or the possibility of the existence of God. The fact that I also accept I can't possibly KNOW doesn't come into it. I don't prescribe to the idea that if I can't prove something doesn't exist then it might do. If that makes me arrogant then belief in something for which there is no evidence must also be arrogant surely?

Cougar - Moderator
I see there's some argument over the terms
The terms are pretty well defined, I thought? They only really get wooly when someone posits some form of "you can't be an atheist / agnostic because of some logic failure or misunderstanding I've just made up" type of argument.

Atheism is the rejection of the belief in god(s), agnosticism is ostensibly "I neither believe not disbelieve." Which is why I laughed like a drain at Derek's argument on the first page, which was broadly:

"Everyone with a belief system different from mine is stupid."

"Oh? Why, what do you believe?"

"I don't know."

You didn't ask what I believe, I just pointed out that those without were as silly shall we say as those with, when really we don't know and the description for those of us that admit we don't know, is Agnostic.

If there were a description other than Jedi Knight for those of us that believe in the Force I might have used that, but it wouldn't exactly have been taken seriously would it and since I don't really know anybody that well, best stick to known terms.

I always thought that gnosticism was about 'knowing' something. So I (like Richard Dawkins btw) am an 'agnostic atheist' - someone who doesn't know if god(s) exist but based on evidence and probability will live my life as if they do not.

Although my view can be changed by evidence.

Similarly you can get agnostic theists which move to the side of 'living life as if they do exist', then you get gnostic theists ("god(s) definitely *do* exist!") and gnostic atheists ("god(s) definitly do *not* exist!").