[Closed] A "National Government" Lab - Tory coalition = wtf?

I agree with this - we the electorate get the politicians we deserve.

True

e.g. if we reject Miliband because he looks like Wallace and doesn't do public speaking too well, and looks odd in photos, then frankly we deserve shallow, PR-minded politicians. If we reject him because we don't agree with his policies then fair enough, but right now that's not the reason people give for not wanting to vote for him.

Untrue, polls indicate that it is his (?) economic policies (sic) that are the main problem.

There is still plenty of information to make correct judgements on, it just that people can't be arsed. Look at yS as the prime example (remember 600+ pages of fairy tales and AS attempts to close down any debate with the 3Bs?) closely followed by UKIP. Immigration is a mildly positive sideshow and yet UKIP are rising on the basis of lies and deceit just like yS did last year. Income inequality ditto...People will be talking about austerity next!!!

But that's democracy for you - remember the words of Winston Churchill

What we could do with is a complete electoral stalemate, where no-one has any authority to do anything at all. Seemed to work in Belgium.

In reality, both parties aren't there to serve the electorate. They're there to do the bidding of their corporate paymasters. And they'll pretty soon tell them to sort their act out and continue their privatising, dismantling of the welfare state agenda. So once you dispense with the rhetoric, and look at what they do, rather than what they say, a labour/conservative coalition is the logical conclusion of our present political system

Be intresting to see which Mps stand down for allegeded family reasons,fall off boats,mysteriously have an accident,some who are told to resign or just resign.

all due to possible child abuse or grooming activities in the past.Should be an intresting fight as the dirty tricks departments reopen the black book of evidence to get weak or poorly performing mps to go.

There will be some great ironical statements over the next few months. The Prince of Darkeness kicked off last month with

Peter Mandelson has warned Labour’s shadow cabinet to be more [b]honest[/b] with the public and spell out the scale of cuts that would have to be imposed if the party wins the general election in May.

A powerful steam iron there! And then CMD combines deficit reduction with tax cuts even though he knows this cannot happen. Bullshit bingo has never been easier.

Fun (!?!) to imagine the shape of a cabinet based on a national government - a lot of peoples' futures would hinge on the actual vote assuming that the leader if the party with the most votes becomes PM. Bad news for either Osbourne or Balls in that case....where's lawro for some predictions?

Untrue, polls indicate that it is his (?) economic policies (sic) that are the main problem.

I stand corrected - my view is based on general impression from when he gets mentioned in the news rather than poll data. I don't like him or agree with his policies but still despair at how often the focus is on his image rather than his policies - I suspect these aspects are easier news stories to write...

Why do you think we end up with weak government that doesn't represent or feel any need to represent the people in the country?

Totally agree. But how can you vote Labour after their refusal to admit the mistakes they made pre-crisis and the Tories (supposedly safe hands with the economy) are using house price rises and more debt to disguise an economy which is struggling and that they haves few realistic plans for sorting it... (as opposed to being honest and saying that frankly things are hard and there's no short term fix

In reality, both parties aren't there to serve the electorate. They're there to do the bidding of their corporate paymasters.

Binners, I know I've aid this before but you must acknowledge that those two things do overlap to an extent.

Why must he acknowledge that you either serve your corporate paymasters or the electorate

Whilst serving one may sometimes help the other out its merely accidental as they are still only serving one master.

I am not saying I agree or disagree with what he said but I disagree with what you said

I don't dispute that Molls. But surely no-one is still under the illusion that the interests of the electorate ever take priority

Just look at what they do, as opposed to what they say. I think we can all agree that after the 2007/2008 shitstorm, pretty much unanimous agreement was reached that our banking system is completely dysfunctional, and desperately needs reforming, to prevent another meltdown. Whats happened? Well... pretty much nothing. What are the labour party proposing to do about it? Nothing!

Everyone is rightfully apoplectic about multinationals making vast profits and paying no tax. What are either of the parties going to do about it? Absolutely nothing whatsoever. Gideon likes to mention it, coming up to an election, I've noticed. But in years of government he hasn't done a bloody thing. Nor will he. And neither will Ed

Any government is caught in the same policy straight jacket for which there are no easy answers. We have barely started on the adjustments to excess leverage across the economy. So the politicians have to balance making statements that do not hold up to scrutiny with keeping Joe Public happy. Interestingly the politicians who have been or are currently the most popular spout the most BS, so if folk swallow this, who is to blame?

Binners - google banking reform and you will change your conclusion. Lots has happened to banks - the problem is that the goal of making them safer is incompatible with their role as the transmission mechanism for the main instrument of policy (QE). You cannot reconcile both at the same time. Tell me a major European bank that is generating returns above its cost if capital right now. Ditto tax reform (that you seem to crave) cannot be undertaken unilaterally, it has to be coordinated to work.

You were slightly less charitable when describing AS doing this
IMHO politicians BS because we expect them to as we want to be told we can have tax cuts, lower deficit, smaller state and better services or say leave the EU and be better off.
Clearly we cannot have all of these but we wont vote for any who tell us the truth we will vote for the ones with the most convincing or better liars.

Public get what the public deserve with politicians and we dont have grown up debates with the or with each other on stw

Looking at the € and European bond yields right now - bienvenue deflation - the whole thing could easily be overshadowed by the next "difficult" period in Europe!!!

Protest parties must be licking their lips

While we're on about unreformed, failing institutions, I think we're due the next stage of the slow-motion car crash that is the Euro. Aren't we? Delivered courtesy of a Greek default no doubt

But surely no-one is still under the illusion that the interests of the electorate ever take priority

Well yes, but the ridiculous thing is that we used to have a party that would've stuck up for the average member of the public, it was called the Labour Party. And no-one voted for it, despite it being in their interests. So it morphed to become more like the party people were voting for to steal their votes.

I wonder what it would be like to have three official parties with a number of core policies that aren't allowed to change - so there's always an offering, and they can attract or lose votes as public opinion changes..

I wonder how many years you need to predict this and it not happen before either of you reconsider?

binners - Member
While we're on about unreformed, failing institutions, I think we're due the next stage of the slow-motion car crash that is the Euro. Aren't we?

Undoubtedly - you can never buck the laws of basic economics in the long run. Europe looks awful again, not that should surprise anyone. Good old basics of currencies again.

How much pain, unemployment, destruction of wages, social unrest will need to happen before people will reconsider. Amazing that LWers are prepared to watch people suffer so much simply to protect political vanity.

Watch for a botched version of QE in Europe in 1Q15 coming up - Dragi is in trouble with the rabbit already out of the hat.

There is much to criticise in the EU but "political vanity" [ and blaming LWers for the EU /Euro zone with a crudely drawn inaccurate caricature of their indifference ] seems an, intellectually, weak and somewhat trivial place to start.
Given binners is left wing and shares your view it also somewhat ninnacurate

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Left wingers supporting the EU in its present state, absolutely baffles me too THM. The man presently at the helm of the (totally undemocratic) European Comission was the prime minister of Luxembourg when it established itself as the worlds premier destination for Tax avoidance. So I think we can assume that's he's not exactly on the side of the workers.

And the present EU/US. Trade agreement, which will pave the way for multinationals to force governments to privatise public services is unquestioningly supported by the labour party in this country, as well as the Tories. 2 cheeks of the same arse indeed.

Edit: yunki - what on earth do you google to find that?!! 😯

I agree with this - we the electorate get the politicians we deserve. e.g. if we reject Miliband because he looks like Wallace and doesn't do public speaking too well, and looks odd in photos, then frankly we deserve shallow, PR-minded politicians. If we reject him because we don't agree with his policies then fair enough, but right now that's not the reason people give for not wanting to vote for him.

As soon as he lays out his policies clearly I'll happily judge him on them. Until then I'll base my opinions on what I have, i.e. he is a clueless f***wit supported by a bunch of self serving parasites who will stab him in the back as soon as he becomes too much of an embarrassment. Not unlike his opposite number.

I find it genuinely depressing that there is no mainstream party I can vote for. I'm thinking Green although in St. Helens (aka Racoon City) any vote that's not for the waste of space Labour drone David Watts is a wasted vote.

I've met Ed and don't like him. I'd certainly not trust him to lead a political party, let alone a country. I've not met Dave, so can't comment but, based on his current track record, I'm not sure I'd trust him either. Come to think of it, I'm not sure that I would trust any of them.

What we need is a form of jury service for politicians. chosen at random(*) from the population of the electoral wards for a fixed term, then chosen again with the incumbents prevented from being eligible. Those serving are housed in provided accommodation, paid a decent salary and supported by a trustworthy and fully independent civil service.

Sadly, whilst this would make an excellent science fiction novella, this is never likely to happen in real life.

As soon as he lays out his policies clearly I'll happily judge him on them.

I'm thinking Green although in St. Helens (aka Racoon City) any vote that's not for the waste of space Labour drone David Watts is a wasted vote.

there's a gazillion people in the country thinking along similar lines which is mental..
If everyone that wanted to vote Green just did so, we would have a Green government, which is the only sensible solution

If only Yunki if only

A "National Government"

It's WAR.

sorry binners, I just googled Farage selfie 😉

While we're on about unreformed, failing institutions, I think we're due the next stage of the slow-motion car crash that is the Euro. Aren't we? Delivered courtesy of a Greek default no doubt

January the 25th - I believe

I've met Ed and don't like him. I'd certainly not trust him to lead a political party, let alone a country.

somewhat amazingly he has also lectured at harvard [ or one of the ivy league ones I forget which]so he has not always been a politician

somewhat amazingly he has also lectured at harvard [ or one of the ivy league ones I forget which]so he has not always been a politician

So at least he has experience of a real world job. 🙂

Totally agree. But how can you vote Labour....

Because last time I voted for the Lib Dems to keep the Tories out but ended up doing the opposite.

Because if I vote for the Tories I'm basically voting myself out of a job after already having my future security stolen.

Because if I vote UKIP I'm a f*****g idiot who can't see the thinly disguised con job Farage and is legion of goons are pulling.

Because if I vote Green around here I may as well vote for the Tories unfortunately.

As much as I'm no huge fan of Labour atm I personally see them as the only way to stand a chance of protecting my future. I'm sure they'll have to continue to cut but at least they won't do it with a huge grin on their face whilst laughing at those they throw on the scrap heap.

[img] [/img]

binners - Member
Left wingers supporting the EU in its present state, absolutely baffles me too THM.

Dear comrades, let us introduce you to a systems that will result in you losing your jobs or taking 25% pay cuts. You know it makes sense.....

I am not a fan of coalitions but have been surprised that the current one has done an ok job despite not tackling the real issues - perhaps in the ST, because of that. Given that they have very few real policy options, it could be an interesting experiment to have a peacetime national government, not least because it would show how little we need governments at all. And the horse trading would be brilliant to watch.

molgrips - Member
voting for a least worst available set of self serving **** is a shit system.
It is, yes. Still democratic though.

you say that as if democracy is always a constant and always a good thing,

Nono, my point is the opposite. People use the word "democtratic" to mean fair, honest, open, good, just etc like some kind of ideal. It's not those things at all, it's neutral. A democracy can be a good one or a bad one.

Ditto, meritocracy

Interesting to hear the thoughts about voting Green. I'm thinking along similar lines having never been a floating voter ever before.

The mess we've made of carelessly using limited resources regardless of the long term consequences is an economic issue as much as environmental - it's no longer a marginal/idealistic issue with a natural left-of-centre positioning.

e.g. I wonder how much the flooding in the last 10 years has cost individuals, business and insurance companies? How much is it going to cost to keep central London from being flooded? As an island nation with lots of opportunity to develop wind and tidal solutions, how can we develop new sources of revenue from the move to renewables by selling products and expertise to other countries?

Choosing between the two main parties at the moment is Like being asked if you want your huge shit sandwich on brown or white bread. Both will just mean more of the same.

I, like a lot of people I'd imagine, am no longer prepared to hold my nose and vote for the perceived least-worst option. And look what the lib dems have turned out to be. Just Tories, with added (somewhat belated) hand-wringing. They're finished! And rightfully so!

It's not difficult to see why the two party system is viewed with utter contempt by a big chunk of the population, myself included, who've had enough of the whole 'is it our turn now' pantomime.

There are going to be some big shocks in May. The main parties clearly, complacently think that when it actually comes to the crunch, we'll all fall back in line, revert to tribal voting, and put our cross where it's always gone. Well I'm not doing so this time. The Labour Party has done absolutely nothing to show me it's worth my vote. I wouldn't trust Ed Milliband to run a ****ing bath! Never mind a country. Ed balls running the economy? Seriously?

Between them the Greens, SNP, and (God help us) UKIP are going to decimate what was the previous 'core vote' that both parties have so shamelessly taken for granted for decades. Good! They both need a rocket up them!!

Christ knows what's going to happen in May. But it'll be interesting. An overall majority looks totally out of reach for both. There's going to be some serious horse-trading going on! Who knows... The interests of the actual voters might even be taken into consideration?! Imagine that?!

So Binners, why do you think there is so little to choose between the main parties? What exactly do the fringe parties offer beyond (in many cases) fairy tales? The case of the LDs is interesting - in power (-ish) why did they behave differently? Why did they abandon their policies? None of this happens by accident.

The fact that SNP and UKIP are doing well is far scarier since their core arguments are a combination of fantasy and lies. Democracy fails more when people are suckered in by such obvious clap trap and deceit. That is a failure not a triumph for the system.

The man presently at the helm of the (totally undemocratic) European Comission was the prime minister of Luxembourg when it established itself as the worlds premier destination for Tax avoidance. So I think we can assume that's he's not exactly on the side of the workers.

Binners I think Junker did a decent job for the average worker in Luxembourg, he just did it at significant expense to everyone else. Also as I've posted before the two parties here have similar tax/spending policies because there is little room for manoeuvre.

THM - Nigel Farage and his band of half-witted closet racists stand as a towering, grinning, chortling monument to the total failure of the two main parties to engage with the actual concerns of the electorate. The fact that he's where he is in the polls would, if they remotely lived in the real world, have both main parties soul-searching as how they've got it all so horribly wrong

It won't happen of course. They're far too arrogant, self-serving, and insulated from reality for that. But he is their true legacy! And it's not pretty, is it?

No Binners, UKIP/SNP show that many are fooled by and will buy snake oil. There is nothing "real world" about lying about immigration, currencies, debt etc - yes, it may be what some want to hear, but it is just irresponsible nonsense. Protest parties rely on people falling for this time and again - a false panacea. It won't happen. That is exactly what happened to the Lib Dems. When you are in power the easy options disappear and "real" choices have to be made.

There are no easy solutions to the situation we find ourselves in. That is the main reason why the large parties find it difficult to differentiate themselves. They do this at the fringe - so labour will lie about the NHS and the Tories about benefits/immigration - but on core issues there is nothing to differentiate themselves on. Look across Europe and you will see incumbents are unpopular whatever their politics. No surprise there, there is good reason. Tough choices tend to be less popular than false panaceas to swallow.

For these reason, I will vote for the candidate that represent local issues in my constituency best.

More of an Azathoth voter myself.

Without googling, which party leader do you reckon said this and how would you describe the comment

...to be poor in India wasn’t so bad as to be on benefits in Britain, XXXXXX suggested, “because at least everyone else there is poor too”.

?

The Scandies offer an interesting current example of mainstream parties coming together to isolate fringe/anti-immigration protest parties

"The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies, one, perhaps, of the Right and the other of the Left, is a foolish idea acceptable only to the doctrinaire and academic thinkers. Instead, the two parties should be almost identical, so that the people can "throw the rascals out" at any election without leading to any profound or extreme shifts in policy."

Carol Quigley - Tragedy and Hope ....

Whislt once these were revelatory notions - I think this is now a common perception which has reached critical mass - the free market is non existant and a one party system would follow the collectivist trajectory and greae the skids for global governance - Hint NWO is no theory - it's been an open conspiracy since before all of us were born ..

Without googling and including party leaders past, I'm going for IDS.
his life experience living on the dole in that hovel of a girlfriend's cottage on her parents' vast estate lends him a unique and realistic perspective on this, of course.

Having googled it, i am going to repeat to thm his own wisdom from threads passim, about the utterly critical importance of taking into account context and bias.