Sure, there's no fun if the cover up only hides incompetence. You need a conspiracy!
Can you explain where I've mentioned a conspiracy here?
This is a thread on 9/11, hence CIA funding of endeavours involving Osama Bin Laden is troubling, as is NORAD failing to tell the truth to the 9/11 commission.
Can you explain where I've mentioned a conspiracy here?
how do you know that was aimed at you?
This is a thread on 9/11, hence CIA funding of endeavours involving Osama Bin Laden is troubling,
It's really not. As explained by others above. You just [i]want[/i] it to be troubling. Can you see the difference here?
as is NORAD failing to tell the truth to the 9/11 commission
Adequately explained by others, they also gave you a link to vanity fair, which is inconvenient.
Serious question. You're in a minority of one here. Why do you think that no one subscribes to your position or gives any weight to your evidence?
This is a thread on 9/11, hence CIA funding of endeavours involving Osama Bin Laden is troubling
Ok. Let’s try again 🙄
What is it that you find troubling about the CIA providing support and funding for the Afghan fighters who were fighting against the Soviet occupation 35 years ago.
You brought it up.
You said you found it troubling.
So what specifically do you find troubling about it ?
Let's go back to the source...
[url= http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/11/magazine/lost-at-tora-bora.html ]CIA funding of endeavours involving Osama Bin Laden is troubling
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One striking coincidence which gives a degree of concern is Frank Carlucci being deputy director of the CIA at the Genesis of Operation Cyclone.
That's the same Frank Carlucci who was Chairman of the Carlyle Group from 1992-2003.
The very same Carlyle Group who had extensive business ties with the Bin Laden Group (whose bulldozers Osama Bin Laden used to build the Tora Bora stronghold with CIA funding)
Bear in mind that the Carlyle Group's presence in Saudi Arabia came about as a result of a member of the Royal Family who has been implicated in funding and supporting Al-Qaeda.
One striking coincidence which gives a degree of concern is Frank Carlucci being deputy director of the CIA at the Genesis of Operation Cyclone.
Why is that a concern ?
That's the same Frank Carlucci who was Chairman of the Carlyle Group from 1992-2003.
More than a decade later, he worked for a private equity firm. So what ?
The very same Carlyle Group who had extensive business ties with the Bin Laden Group
The bin laden family held a relatively tiny investment ($2m) in a fund at Carlyle Group.
Their investment made up roughly 1.5% of a single fund at Carlyle Group.
A drop in the Carlyle Group ocean.
Hardly as “extensive” as you would like to make out.
So.
You’ve still not let us know what was so troubling about the CIA funding the Afghan fighters in the 80’s.
It was publicly known foriegn policy.
It was vote winner for Reagan in fact.
Serious question. You're in a minority of one here. Why do you think that no one subscribes to your position or gives any weight to your evidence?
[quote=jonnyboi ]Serious question. You're in a minority of one here. Why do you think that no one subscribes to your position or gives any weight to your evidence?
is that the tag line to the new rambo film?
If so, I'll happily take the lead 😉
Always outnumbered, never outgunned etc...
Anyhoo back to facts...
It was vote winner for Reagan in fact.
Debatable whether that had a big influence on the result (Brian Crozier and his cronies are as likely to have played a role in the election results, much like Robert Mercer in the case of Trump) but regardless, if it was indeed a vote winner, it was one which spawned a terrorist network, supported by the Saudi Ambassador.
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Which resulted in an attack that could've been prevented.
A New Yorker article in 2006 described Soufan as coming closer than anyone to preventing the September 11 attacks, even implying that he would have succeeded had the CIA been willing to share information with him.
So. Without changing the subject yet again.
What is that has you so concerned about the CIA/USA funding Afgham fighters against the Soviet Occupation in the 80’s
You’ve still not answered yet.
You brought it up.
it was one which spawned a terrorist network
So what if it did ?
Are You seriously suggesting that was the plan all along?
The CIA saw some 20 year old uni grad on a digger in 1981 and said, you know what .... I’ve got an idea.
Ffs.
You're talking guff...
my concern was:
CIA funding of endeavours involving Osama Bin Laden is troubling
And it's answered above.
CIA funding of endeavours involving Osama Bin Laden is troubling
Osama bin laden was nobody at the time.
This was the 80’s
He was 20.
So what is your concern really.
Now its not just a soundbite that makes it sound like the CIA where knowingly funding bin laden (the terrorist)
You do realise that Governments change alliances all the time?
You do know that Germany and Russia had a pact in 1939 but went to war in 1941?
You do know the Japanese had an alliance with UK, France and the US in WW1 but 20 years went to war against teh same countries?
You do not know that Churchill despised and mistrusted Stalin but still sided with him against the Nazi's? Then 4 years later he wanted to invade the USSR?
Very troubling.
#makesyouthink
You do realise that Governments change alliances all the time?
Everyone else knows this. And accepts it.
JHJ however doesn’t seem to get it.
Or simply chooses to pretend not to, as it suits his argument.
Osama bin laden was nobody at the time.
This was the 80’s
He was 20.
Well, you're not far off... when Operation Cyclone started in 1979, he was 22; by the time he'd built the tunnels of Tora Bora, he would've been about 30.
For a similar case study, [url= http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/14/opinion/a-tyrant-40-years-in-the-making.html ]let's look at Saddam Hussein... he would've been around 25 when the CIA 1st started using him as an Asset[/url].
On the brink of war, both supporters and critics of United States policy on Iraq agree on the origins, at least, of the haunted relations that have brought us to this pass: America's dealings with Saddam Hussein, justifiable or not, began some two decades ago with its shadowy, expedient support of his regime in the Iraq-Iran war of the 1980's.Both sides are mistaken. Washington's policy traces an even longer, more shrouded and fateful history. [b]Forty years ago, the Central Intelligence Agency, under President John F. Kennedy, conducted its own regime change in Baghdad, carried out in collaboration with Saddam Hussein.[/b]
As its instrument the C.I.A. had chosen the authoritarian and anti-Communist Baath Party, in 1963 still a relatively small political faction influential in the Iraqi Army. According to the former Baathist leader Hani Fkaiki, [b]among party members colluding with the C.I.A. in 1962 and 1963 was Saddam Hussein, then a 25-year-old who had fled to Cairo after taking part in a failed assassination of Kassem in 1958.[/b]
(On a side note it's worth remembering [url= https://wikileaks.org/wiki/Corruption_convicted_billionaire_Nadhmi_Auchi_legal_threat_to_Wikileaks,_5_Nov_2008 ]Nadhmi Auchi's role in the Ba'ath Party[/url]... You'll find I've mentioned Auchi in other threads)
State Department records from the US Baghdad Embassy made at the time, and obtained by Wikileaks, confirm the Observer's 2003 story. [b]Saddam Hussein was tried in absentina. And not only did Nadhmi Auchi stand trial, but he was convicted and sentenced to three years imprisonment in 1960 for his part in the conspiracy--the supply of machine guns, as a Ba'ath party member, to other members who carried out the attack. [/b]
You don't seem capable of accepting what gobuchul has just said, that in international affairs allies and enemies change. What on Earth has all this CIA support of Bin Laden got to do with 9/11? Are you suggesting the CIA were planning with Bin Laden way back then to turn a blind eye to a future, unspecified terrorist attack in America?
You don't seem capable of accepting what gobuchul has just said, that in international affairs allies and enemies change. What on Earth has all this CIA support of Bin Laden got to do with 9/11? Are you suggesting the CIA were planning with Bin Laden way back then to turn a blind eye to a future, unspecified terrorist attack in America?
He’ll not tell you what he’s suggesting, as overt statements get refuted fairly easily.
As above, alliances come and go. All this is old news and none of it, not one single shred of evidence points to a conspiracy relating to the events of 9/11.
Incompetence? Possibly
Missed opportunities? Almost certainly
But that’s it.
What is your problem with the Bora Bora tunnels ? The CIA fighting the soviets built them for the mujahedeen fighting the soviets . AQ did not exist had not even been thought of at that time . Years later Bin Laden who knew about the tunnels used them when fighting the Americans . What do you find surprising or suspicious in those facts ?
Over the last month, Al Waleed Bin Talal and Bandar Bin Sultan have both reportedly been detained as part of the Saudi Purge; there have also been suggestions of further investigation into the Al-Yamamah deal
Still no word on Turki Bin Faisal though...
[url= https://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-peak/feathered-cocaine_b_4392859.html ]Feathered Cocaine[/url]
With some of the richest and most powerful men in the world visiting these falconry camps, the camps also attract some of the world’s most undesirable — like weapons smuggler and the inspiration for the movie, Lord of War, Viktor Bout, who was frequently a guest at royal falconry camps. [b]But the most infamous guest was Osama bin Laden, who, for many years, made annual visits to the royal falconry camps in both Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates during a time when he was already wanted around the world for mass murder. Former Saudi Ambassador, Prince Turki bin Faisal hunted with bin Laden often, and bin Laden was a VIP guest at the falconry camp organized by the former foreign minister from the U.A.E. bin Laden was so involved in falconry during the ‘90s and 2000s, that during the time he lived in Kandahar, Afghanistan, he stole most of the falcons from the surrounding tribes for his own personal use, giving the best birds as gifts to royal sheiks in the Emirates, and princes in Saudi Arabia.[/b]
Not forgetting of course that it was Turki bin Faisal's sister (Bandar Bin Sultan's wife) who was involved in money finding it's way from the Riggs account set up by the UK paymaster general to the hijackers support network.
Well, you're not far off... when Operation Cyclone started in 1979, he was 22; by the time he'd built the tunnels of Tora Bora, he would've been about 30.
And as a nobody, but a good civil engineer, he did a good job I presume.
As America wanted, to enable the fight against the soviet occupation.
That’s It. Simple.
For a similar case study...
quick, change the subject.
Nice story jivehoneyjive. Is there any corroboration?
What is your problem with the Bora Bora tunnels ? The CIA fighting the soviets built them for the mujahedeen fighting the soviets . AQ did not exist had not even been thought of at that time . Years later Bin Laden who knew about the tunnels used them when fighting the Americans . What do you find surprising or suspicious in those facts ?
See how he doesn’t like answering direct questions?
‘Quick, look in these tunnels over there! Here’s a pic of two people together’
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See what I mean?
What is your problem with the Bora Bora tunnels
He doesn’t have a problem with them at all.
Because I’m pretty sure he’s intelligent enough to know that really they are an irrelevance.
But they are a tool that he can use to make statements that make the CIA/USA sound complicit in something they had nothing to do with.
“The CIA paid Osama Bin Laden to build the tunnels”
Sounds like damning evidence against the CIA being part of a terror plot.
If your a complete idiot it does anyway 🙄
It's more due to the link between Operation Cyclone, the CIA, Frank Carlucci, the Carlyle Group and Al Waleed Bin Talal, who is not only alleged to have been involved in the support and funding of Al-Qaeda prior to 9/11, but has recently been arrested in Saudi Arabia, apparently in relation to such matters...
I could wangle in a link between Al Waleed Bin Talal, Rupert Murdoch and the CIA for good measure, but I'll leave that for another day.
Similarly the statement
“The Carlyle Group had extensive business toes with the Bin Laden family”
Apart from the total exaggeration in using the work “extensive” considering the tiny investment the Bin Laden Group had invested in one single Carlyle fund.
$2m which made up [b]0.15%[/b] of the total fund
(Not 1.5% as I miss typed earlier)
But either way, so what ? The Bin Laden Group has investments all over the place, they are a big company.
It also fails to mention that the Bin Laden family had very publicly disowned Osama anyway. And he had nothing whatsoever to do with the Family or the Company at that time.
It's more due to the link between Operation Cyclone, the CIA, Frank Carlucci, the Carlyle Group and Al Waleed Bin Talal
Explain what the links are and what they mean.
With an actual timeline and make some conclusions.
I will bet my arse you can’t/won’t.
Regardless of the size of investment, for George HW Bush to visit the Bin Laden family twice on Carlyle Group matters, they must've had some fairly important business...
Al Waleed Bin Talal, who is not only alleged to have been involved in the support and funding of Al-Qaeda prior to 9/11, [b]but has recently been arrested in Saudi Arabia, apparently in relation to such matters...[/b]
Cite.
Nice story jivehoneyjive. Is there any corroboration?
Guess you're refering to this:
Over the last month, Al Waleed Bin Talal and Bandar Bin Sultan have both reportedly been detained as part of the Saudi Purge; there have also been suggestions of further investigation into the Al-Yamamah dealStill no word on Turki Bin Faisal though...
Feathered Cocaine
With some of the richest and most powerful men in the world visiting these falconry camps, the camps also attract some of the world’s most undesirable — like weapons smuggler and the inspiration for the movie, Lord of War, Viktor Bout, who was frequently a guest at royal falconry camps. [b]But the most infamous guest was Osama bin Laden, who, for many years, made annual visits to the royal falconry camps in both Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates during a time when he was already wanted around the world for mass murder. Former Saudi Ambassador, Prince Turki bin Faisal hunted with bin Laden often, and bin Laden was a VIP guest at the falconry camp organized by the former foreign minister from the U.A.E. bin Laden was so involved in falconry during the ‘90s and 2000s, that during the time he lived in Kandahar, Afghanistan, he stole most of the falcons from the surrounding tribes for his own personal use, giving the best birds as gifts to royal sheiks in the Emirates, and princes in Saudi Arabia.[/b]Not forgetting of course that it was Turki bin Faisal's sister (Bandar Bin Sultan's wife) who was involved in money finding it's way from the Riggs account set up by the UK paymaster general to the hijackers support network.
Though it's not a direct mention of the falconry camps, there is this [url= http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,480226,00.html ]Time Article[/url]:
Yet when Zubaydah was confronted by the false Saudis, writes Posner, "his reaction was not fear, but utter relief."[b] Happy to see them, he reeled off telephone numbers for a senior member of the royal family who would, said Zubaydah, "tell you what to do." [/b]The man at the other end would be Prince Ahmed bin Salman bin Abdul Aziz, a Westernized nephew of King Fahd's and a publisher better known as a racehorse owner. His horse War Emblem won the Kentucky Derby in 2002. [b]To the amazement of the U.S., the numbers proved valid.[/b]
[b]Zubaydah, writes Posner, said the Saudi connection ran through Prince Turki al-Faisal bin Abdul Aziz, the kingdom's longtime intelligence chief.[/b] Zubaydah said bin Laden "personally" told him of a 1991 meeting at which Turki agreed to let bin Laden leave Saudi Arabia and to provide him with secret funds as long as al-Qaeda refrained from promoting jihad in the kingdom.
Zubaydah said he attended a third meeting in Kandahar in 1998 with Turki, senior isi agents and Taliban officials. [b]There Turki promised, writes Posner, that "more Saudi aid would flow to the Taliban, and the Saudis would never ask for bin Laden's extradition, so long as al-Qaeda kept its long-standing promise to direct fundamentalism away from the kingdom." In Posner's stark judgment, the Saudis "effectively had (bin Laden) on their payroll since the start of the decade." Zubaydah told the interrogators that the Saudis regularly sent the funds through three royal-prince intermediaries he named.[/b]
Posner told TIME he got the details of Zubaydah's interrogation and revelations from a U.S. official outside the cia at a "very senior Executive Branch level" whose name we would probably know if he told it to us. He did not. The second source, Posner said, was from the cia, and he gave what Posner viewed as general confirmation of the story
There's another unanswered question. If Turki and Mir were cutting deals with bin Laden, were they acting at the behest of their governments or on their own? [b]Posner avoids any direct statement, but the book implies that they were doing official, if covert, business.[/b]
(To clarify, that's the same Turki Bin Faisal... his full name is actually [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turki_bin_Faisal_Al_Saud ]Turki bin Faisal bin Abdulaziz Al Saud [/url])
What about the Tunnels of Gibraltar?
They were built to fight the Spanish, then the French.
They were then used in WW2 against Hitler.
Here's a picture of Hitler and Franco.
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Hitler wanted an European Superstate. Something like a very efficient but evil EU.
George Orwell fought in the Spanish Civil War and dies at only 47. After writing 1984 on the island of Jura.
Orwell and Churchill both spent a lot of time at the BBC.
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We all know about the BBC.
the tunnels were extended in the Cold War, in response from aggression from the Warsaw Pact.
The Warsaw Pact had member countries that are now EU States, who are pissed off with the Brexit vote, however, only 4% on Gib voted for Brexit.
What is Jura famous for? Whiskey. Just think what damage could be done to their export market by Brexit.
Who's the winner? The Spanish Orujo producers and their Grappa friends in Italy.
But do your own research.
#makesyouthink
Now we are actually on to something Churchill was a supporter of a United Sates of Europe!
And JHJ is quoting a guy who doesn’t believe that 9/11 was a false flag operation or US conspiracy,
Anyway, back on topic
Serious question. You're in a minority of one here. Why do you think that no one subscribes to your position or gives any weight to your evidence?
If anyone feels that there’s been new evidence or facts presented by JHJ that suggest any collusion between the US, Saudi and bin laden in relation to the planning on 9/11 then do speak up
Well I guess must be really thick, because after all this evidence I'm still not able to see how any of this stuff links to a 9/11 conspiracy.
From reading jives links , there were some connections between the Saudi Arabian Bin Laden and Saudi Arabia, some Saudis gave money to Bin Laden to secure a non aggression pact ie keep AQ out of Saudi Arabia. some Saudis may have known AQ were up to something big before 9/11 but not what so couldn't/didn't give a warning in advance and kept shtum afterwards. So no actual conspiracy other than the well known terrorist one, and nothing that people haven't always assumed. In other news I'm starting to believe the pope is actually a catholic.
That's what THEY want you to think.
Good bit of brain storming if you ask me... learnt plenty of shizz I didn't know before today 😉
We have more for you... 🙂
Well I guess must be really thick, because after all this evidence I'm still not able to see how any of this stuff links to a 9/11 conspiracy.
Either the CIA plays amazingly long and subtle games to no obvious effect, or their actions in the short term sometimes have unintended consequences later.
To really understand what happened you need to properly look at Bin Laden’s role. The obvious example here is of course, iron man 3. It’s well known that an episode of the 1990’s animated series contained a plot suspiciously similar to that of 9/11 which leads us to the question ‘what did they already know at this point?’
To answer that you need to look at the trifecta, but more about that later.
But firstly, we need to talk about the tunnels of tora bora again and bin laden suddenly being able to complete such complex structures on his own, outside help is the only plausible answer.
Coincidence? I don’t think so
So, back on topic with iron man 3.
The parallels between the mandarin and bin laden are obvious. And shows why he wasn’t captured alive, after all someone who was in the pay of the west for his entire career couldn’t be trusted with such a big secret.
Finally, and the most chilling part has to be the technical manipulation of our media. After all. If bin laden had been part of a US conspiracy why not reveal it and cause greater damage? That he didn’t can only point to one thing, he was a british stage actor.
Makes you think
Jive, just as a sort of social experiment.
Have you ever worked in a large Corporate organisation/entity, like a council or bank that employs 1000's of people?
My theory is that if you've ever worked in that environment, the understanding that the sort of drive, cohesion, efficiency, long term vision required for any sort of group conspiracy such as would be demanded of the CIA over a 30 + year project to arrive at the point where you move people around the world like chess pieces in order to (say) direct catastrophic terrorist events, just is not possible. the staff churn, the difference visions in command, the day to day variables, the internecine department warfare, the politics just make that sort of thing fundamentally impossible. And it's no really good enough to say "oh, but this is the CIA" they've shown over and over again how inefficient, disorganised and just plain wrong they are on a huge scale.
If you've worked in that environment, you realise very quickly how astonishing it is that just the day job gets done (and only then sometimes by the skin of their teeth)
The Bin Laden Group has investments all over the place
My cousins husband lives out that way and sells goods to the Bin Laden family, does this mean I am now linked to 9/11?
oikeith - MemberMy cousins husband lives out that way and sells goods to the Bin Laden family, does this mean I am now linked to 9/11?
Not only that, but now [i]we're[/i] all linked to 9/11.
Makes you think...