[Closed] 800 childrens bodies in Catholic Nuns home for unmarried mums

These people really are despicable:

Father Fintan Monaghan, secretary of the Tuam archediocese, says: "I suppose we can't really judge the past from our point of view, from our lens. All we can do is mark it appropriately and make sure there is a suitable place here where people can come and remember the babies that died."

Let's not judge the past on our morals, then, but on the morals of the time. Was it OK, in mid-20th century Ireland, to throw the bodies of dead children into sewage tanks?

From http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/04/children-galway-mass-graves-ireland-catholic-church

I detest how the government tiptoes around the church so as not to upset it. It's just a group of normal people (save for the child abusers, neglecters and murderers obviously).

If they'd discovered 800 bodies out the back of Pirate Pete's Adventure Playground, do you think the police would be calling up their head office and asking nicely for cooperation?

Mind boggling this. Utterly mind boggling. Is it they think illegitimate means no soul? Flame me but with the widespread child abuse and now this- why is it 'children' spring to mind when you think of Catholicism?

I think the Catholic Church sold its soul a long time ago with constant links to historical child abuse, ill treatment of people who looked to the "church" for shelter or assistance and got roundly shafted...

This legacy or abuse, brutality and neglect will be forever the Catholic Churches "Cross To Bear"

The 800 young kids bodies that are "just resting" is tragic. If Rolf Harris can be up in court for something that happened many many years ago.... the perpetrators of this act by the church need to go to the front of the queue.

If priests are begging forgiveness, well, sorry, no.

I have two experienxces of the catholic church.

my Father in law was sexually and physically abused while at 'priest school' in Ireland

A friend had to forcibly remove a priest from his grandmas house in Ireland. His granddad had just died and the priest was asking for all his gold / watches / valuables, because "he would have wanted the church to have them", literally a day after his death.

nasty, corrupt people.

Desperately sad and very misguided people. Ireland is a democracy, their laws basically prevent abortion today and 50 years ago things would have been much worse. Religion itself is not to blame, its a misguided society.

The movies Philomena and the Magdalene sisters are both excellent films dealing with this issues.

Nicely done konabunny.

Despite my dislike of religion I'm more inclined toward tinybit's helping hand comment than **** religion one.

its a misguided society.

Can't say I disagree with most of what's been written, though much of it is borne of not quite ignorance of how much power the church has had in Ireland for centuries, but moreso [i]why[/i] it's had that power. But to make an sweeping statement like "it's a misguided society" takes a special kind of ignorance indeed.

Ok, in no way am I rushing to defend the actions of the church in Ireland but I think there is more being bandied about than the evidence I've seen can support. All this is from what I've read and I'm happy to be corrected.

First up, the "800" figure is for all deaths of children over a 40 year period which couldn't be accounted for from existing records. The initial proposal was simply that these deaths be memorialised but this has been connected to the 1975 find but doesn't reflect having combed through the remains found and matched them up. As far as i know no one knows how many people were buried in the tank and no one can link the bodies directly to those who died in the house.

Secondly , all the references to it being a sewage tank imply that they were chucking dead children into an in use septic tank. That's not the case from what I've read, it was an unused concrete container in the grounds of their estate.

Also, it seems highly unlikely to me that there was an open grave on the site for 40 years, if nothing else the smell and the hygiene impact would make that a bizarre thing for them to have done. It seems more likely to me that the tank was used to re-inter bones from graves in the grounds as space demanded. Potentially this could include bones from previous generations, including famine victims - hence the original assumption in 1975 - sites like that aren't uncommon in Ireland.

The tragedy in this case is the appalling conditions in which these institutions kept their residents and that wasn't limited to catholic houses. Protestant institutions in Ireland had comparable death rates and I have no idea how british houses from the same period would compare but I'd not have high hopes. The death rate is horrendously high but it's still 20 deaths a year, comparisons to the holocaust are, frankly, silly.

It seems more likely to me that the tank was used to re-inter bones from graves in the grounds as space demanded. Potentially this could include bones from previous generations, including famine victims

No that was a previous assumption.

The [b]names[/b] of the 796 children buried in the unmarked mass grave were confirmed by historian Catherine Corless, after the authorities responded to her repeated requests to access state records.

From here:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ireland-mass-graves-government-may-launch-inquiry-into-800-children-found-in-septic-tank-9487946.html

What is more worrying is 4,000 more elsewhere?

As I said earlier IF they were victims of famine where are all the mothers that would have died to? Surely there'd be a corresponding figure coming close to the above and recorded when/where. If anything mother and child would have been buried together.

Mothers dont let their childrens/babies starve whilst they feed themselves and there is breastfeeding etc.

It just doesn't add up.

The septic tank is a headline grabber. A evocative one but welcome I feel as it'll jolt someone in authority to do something. i.e. investigate this.

Shudder- a Church runs a countries social services. Mental, a religious 'private' company in essence that reports to a head in a different country.

Still the perpetrators probably went to confessional before they met their end.......

But to make an sweeping statement like "it's a misguided society" takes a special kind of ignorance indeed.

It's true though, relegion is only a symptom, or process to obtain power. In itself it is harmless, in the same way as any other tool. When it's wielded to exert power is when it becomes an object of hate.

Ultimately it's society that has bred the relegions we currently have, society is at fault. People. You and me and everyone else who participates. It's even more screwed up though, because in this particular case it's the misogyny of society that has resulted in the horrific conditions and deaths of mothers and children. It's those who are underclasses who are targeted, the weak, young and disenfrachised.

The names of the 796 children buried in the unmarked mass grave were confirmed by historian Catherine Corless, after the authorities responded to her repeated requests to access state records.

Just because they now have names doesn't mean that they have anymore evidence of how their bodies were treated after their deaths.

Got nack-all to do with religion, no matter who did what in whatever name.

True, it was the religions representatives here on earth..

lemonysam - Member
...Secondly , all the references to it being a sewage tank imply that they were chucking dead children into an in use septic tank. That's not the case from what I've read, it was an unused concrete container in the grounds of their estate...

I'm sure if it was an unused water reservoir that would have been mentioned.

I'm puzzled as to what other purpose than sewage an "unused concrete container" could be intended for. Was it built specifically for pit burials?

I've not read the above but I read elsewhere that the Irish state used to pay a 'bounty' to these homes for each child they managed to get adopted.

Those that were unsuitable for adoption or ill were seen as having no value and treated so poorly a lot of them died.

I read elsewhere that the Irish state used to pay a 'bounty' to these homes for each child they managed to get adopted.

Those that were unsuitable for adoption or ill were seen as having no value and treated so poorly a lot of them died.

Correct. It was known in Ireland at the time (1934) that

mortality among “illegitimate children” in 1924 was five times that of the rest of the population.

But that in itself is not thought to expain the number of deaths in the Tuam home.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/tuam-deaths-need-further-investigation-says-academic-expert-1.1822219

There is a village in Hants (I'm not going to name it) that's not too far from my home that was a "hospital" in a very similar vein to the one mentioned here.
They have buried 1500 in the grounds(thereabouts, they stopped counting) single Mums and Kids that were treated in the same way.
Every year there is a service held on the old grounds to remember them, the service attracts about 3000 folks. To say it's a moving tribute is an understatement.

Thing is, the old "hospital" is now new flats and Appt's and a modern village with about 400 homes on.
The residents tried to get this once a year service stopped because it was upsetting thier families.

Difficult to comprehend don't you think. 😕

But to make an sweeping statement like "it's a misguided society" takes a special kind of ignorance indeed

The site of a local hospital and before that a workhouse for the poor, now rebuilt as cheap housing, has an old church yard containing the bodies of many thousands of babies and unborn babies.

It was accepted then,but is seen as something terrible and shocking now.

The Indian lady died as she was told "we don't do abortions, this is Ireland".

We'll just ignore your straw man for now...

I'm a Catholic, confirmed. Went to a convent school for a bit. I don't see it as the religions fault.

If you can't see that the religion of those who ran these places played a major part in their actions, then you're some kind of blind.

What was happening wasn't a secret. Its the framework of the society.

I'm not sure what to infer from what your saying. (Well, I think I do, but really don't want to think it.) In which tense are you talking? And do you think those crazy Irish would have mistreated their illegitimate children similarly without the influence of priests and nuns?

I really don't understand why STW contributors are on here expressing shock and outrage, they must live very sheltered lives. This kind of thing has been going on for centuries; unwanted babies have been allowed to die quietly and famine or plague victims have been thrown into communal pits - how many Irish and Scots do you think died during the potato famines? It's all very well to heap scorn on those who perpetrated these things but at that time it was considered normal and even necessary in those societies. How do we know that in a hundred years our great grand-children won't be disgusted by something we consider perfectly acceptable today?

What I say doesn't excuse the disgusting acts perpetrated all over the world in the name of religion though - especially if you believe that religion is nothing more than "my imaginary friend is better than yours". Religion is, to me, the greatest mistake of the Human race.

The first Magdalene Asylum was in London, not Ireland.
They were operated by many Christian denominations, not just Catholicism.

Inhuman behaviour in the name of religion is not exclusive to one denomination.

Globalti the children in the "care" of those nun had a 4 times higher mortality rate than the other locals so you are frankly talking out of your bottom.

Got nack-all to do with religion, no matter who did what in whatever name.

Btw I am aware of the problems of generalisations and other groups being brought into disrepute by the actions of a few, problem is, religions tend to have central tenets and scripture there backing up the nuttier end of the scales viewpoint, it's just that the more level headed say "oh we just ignore that bit"

Globalti the children in the "care" of those nun had a 4 times higher mortality rate than the other locals so you are frankly talking out of your bottom.

that time it was considered normal and even necessary in those societies. How do we know that in a hundred years our great grand-children won't be disgusted by something we consider perfectly acceptable today?

I think a lot of the problem is this.... It's well within living memory in a civilised country, very close to home.

It's not a 100 years ago, it was upto 55yrs ago. Some of those mothers and people in the homes are very much alive.

I'm astonished that some in this thread can't see the link between this and the catholic religion. Or the influence religion has on society, which seems to be far more than society has on religion!

"Got nack-all to do with religion"
<nelson muntz>HA..HA!<nelson muntz/>

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
Epicurus 341 BCE - 270 BCE

Nope, not buying the "it's not religions fault".

Everywhere that's been touched by the Catholic church has been FUBAR'ed. Spain and Italy are corrupt as ****, South and Central America are even more corrupt and the Philippines is as well.

If you compare ex British colonies to Spanish ones, who are the ones who are doing better? Oh yes, the ones that weren't Catholic. If Spain had conquered North America, it to, would resemble Mexico.

You're right Tom, as well as the Vatican being complicit with some of the slaughter that was undertaken by the worst of the Nazis during WWII.

catholicism WOW
[IMG] [/IMG]

just playing advocate, are those sent to the homes not going to be those right at the bottom of the social heap so already seriously disadvantaged

The thing is, they are/were only at the bottom of the social heap in the first place because of the attitude and teachings of the Catholic Church.

Indeed, children born out of wedlock (and their mothers) have been treated absolutely fairly in every situation other than those unlucky enough to be born in catholic countries.

Yep. You're talking about a religion that covers up and tolerates all sorts of disgusting behaviour but ostracizes women who have children our of wedlock.

As did/does all other religions.

Quite amusing this thread, if you play a game of spot the bigot.

"If you compare ex British colonies to Spanish ones, who are the ones who are doing better? Oh yes, the ones that weren't Catholic. If Spain had conquered North America, it to, would resemble Mexico."

This is so ahistoric and loopy as to be almost impressive.

Spot the bigots?

Ironic.

I wonder how Ireland/the media there is dealing with this latest scandal. I was thinking last night, again decent religious Catholics - how must they feel again hearing this?

Seems pretty simple to me. Systematic neglect and abuse of children in institution run by nuns. People from a religious order either guilty or at least complicit in silence. Can't see the positive influence of religion here.

Don't need religion for abuse though - take the current Cyril Smith allegations...

If you compare ex British colonies to Spanish ones, who are the ones who are doing better? Oh yes, the ones that weren't Catholic. If Spain had conquered North America, it to, would resemble Mexico.

Never looked at my data on this but what does worry me is the ride of neo- conservatism in the US and the apparent link to religion.

hora - Member
Spot the bigots?

Ironic.

I wonder how Ireland/the media there is dealing with this latest scandal. I was thinking last night, again decent religious Catholics - how must they feel again hearing this?

Interestingly it seems to me that the basis of the protestant church was partly about the way the Catholic church was in a position to behave in this way - leaders putting themselves in between the common person and God. Catholic leaders seem accountable to only God whilst Protestant leaders cannot hide from the rest of the church members all of whom are able to take part in all church activities.

Of course an person wishing to do terrible things could find joining a church a useful way of doing those things - access to Quire boys or whatever.

bigot: origins, late 16th century (denoting a superstitious religious hypocrite): from French, of unknown origin. (OED)

irony: religious people calling atheists bigoted for pointing out their superstitious religious hypocrisy. (me)

If you think its wrong to have strong feelings against the books and belief systems which have led to so much misery (and bigotry :O) in the world, I'd love to see your reasoned arguments why you think religion should get a free pass.

Communism, Facism, and their followers can be called anything you like (which is good), but religion and its followers seem to claim a special place above criticism.

Why?

Honest question. (Top Tip: calling everyone you disagree with bigoted or ????phobic doesn't constitute an actual answer)

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

This is the flawed part of the superficially clever argument, that's why no-one takes much notice of it these days I suppose.

hora - Member

Spot the bigots?

Ironic.

I wonder how Ireland/the media there is dealing with this latest scandal. I was thinking last night, again decent religious Catholics - how must they feel again hearing this?

Lots of bigotry on this thread Hora (not from yourself).

Ignorance and bigotry here:

Everywhere that's been touched by the Catholic church has been FUBAR'ed. Spain and Italy are corrupt as ****, South and Central America are even more corrupt and the Philippines is as well.

If you compare ex British colonies to Spanish ones, who are the ones who are doing better? Oh yes, the ones that weren't Catholic. If Spain had conquered North America, it to, would resemble Mexico.

And here:

grtdkad - Member

You're right Tom, as well as the Vatican being complicit with some of the slaughter that was undertaken by the worst of the Nazis during WWII.

And again here:

jon1973 - Member

Yep. You're talking about a religion that covers up and tolerates all sorts of disgusting behaviour but ostracizes women who have children our of wedlock.

Take a look at the asylum system operated in this country up until 20 odd years ago:
Do you know how many people were denied their freedom?
How many died there? Where were they buried?
Why many of them were put there in the first place?
No. No you don't.

The mindless prejudice, complete disregard of history and thoughtless stupidity behind such comments is amazing.

Threads that denigrate one particular religion are superb for identifying the ignorant - this and the recent anti Islam thread being perfect examples.

I'm an atheist myself, but I was brought up a Catholic and am not a fan of any religion.
But seriously, some people on here really need to take a damn good look at themselves.