Looking for new or used?
As a Jeep fan, I would say jeep commander.
Unfortunately jeeps went a bit plastic around that time and they no longer make that model, also some might not appreciate the styling.
It was just another option I though I would throw out there.
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High driving position, room for seven, 4X4 and will definitely get the neighbours talking 🙂 You could even stick some armchairs in the back and line with velvet for extra luxury.
The other thing I find quite sad is the willingness to put words into other peoples' mouths with out thinking.
Words like 'inverted snobbery' you mean? It's just pretty telling that you have people literally going 'haha paupers you can't afford these cars but I can' - yet its supposed inverse snobbery that you pick up on and criticise. Pretty telling IMO.
Envy and jealousy has *everything* to do with it, what do you think fuel the bile-filled posts?
The fact that (as evidenced pretty well by this thread) the target market for these cars contains a high proportion of posers who don't GAF about the environment or anyone else, want a car to show off, yet don't have the balls to admit it so invent spurious justifications?
As I said, I could buy one of these cars so I don't see where jealousy comes into it. I don't feel the need to bolster my 'status' with a flashy car though, so I bought something practical.
Envy and jealousy has *everything* to do with it, what do you think fuel the bile-filled posts?
I think it's fuelled by a sense that people who buy these cars do so without a second thought to the consequences of their decision, i.e. the impact on the environment and on other road users.
EDIT: great minds eh Grum.
There IS am impact; these cars DO put out more CO2, even with a diesel engine and the consequence of getting hit by one in an accident when you're in a much smaller car IS far worse for the occupants of the smaller car - that has been shown to be true in crash testing over and over again, cars with more mass impart far greater damage to cars with less mass and the greater the difference, the greater the damage. Yes the people that can afford to buy these bohemoths will be safer, but they are safer at someone else's expense, usually people who can't afford to buy a big car.
So to summarise, what fuels the comments is perhaps better described as a sense of 'social injustice' rather than envy, something that is a common theme in today's society and you can see examples of it everywhere you look. It's a bit like those who can afford to send their kids to private school, or can afford a tennis coach or horse for their kids etc etc.
I could afford a car like that but I drive a Volvo estate instead because it's safer and more environmentally friendly. I wouldn't dream of buying an X5, Q7 etc because of the status of those cars. I don't think all people who buy these cars are guilty of not caring about 'social justice' either, but I do think that peoples' anger towards the subject is driven by that rather than envy.
The OP is Surfmat. and I claim my £5.
Fair play to Audi though. They have managed to make an absolutely killing selling tarted up van's with comfy chairs. They are undoubtedly nice places to be but to describe one as a "car" stretches credulity to the point of breaking.
A Q7 is seventeen feet long and weighs almost 2.5 tons, the same length as a Ford Transit van but quite a bit heavier.
the consequence of getting hit by one in an accident when you're in a much smaller car IS far worse for the occupants of the smaller car - that has been shown to be true in crash testing over and over again, cars with more mass impart far greater damage to cars with less mass and the greater the difference, the greater the damage. Yes the people that can afford to buy these bohemoths will be safer, but they are safer at someone else's expense, usually people who can't afford to buy a big car
And you bought a Volvo estate which is heavily constructed and well known for it's passenger safety?
I have three kids and if, heaven forbid, we where to be hit by another car I want them (and me) to be in the safest possible place, which for me at the time was an XC90 - if looking after your family is wrong then I apologise.
I want them (and me) to be in the safest possible place, which for me at the time was an XC90
No no, it's not and I completely understand what you're saying. The Volvo V70 is the safest estate car available and is as safe as the XC90 I think but it's quite a bit lighter than the XC90 and Q7 etc.
But that's not my point.
My point is this: it's an arms race. It is entirely possible to make all cars lighter and equally as safe, IF all other cars are also lighter.
Once you start down the 'more mass = more safe' equation, it only holds true for as long as you don't get hit by a more massive car, hence it becomes an arms race that those that can afford to buy more massive cars will always win.
It's an observation I'm making not a judgement on your part.
I have three kids and if, heaven forbid, we where to be hit by another car I want them (and me) to be in the safest possible place, which for me at the time was an XC90 - if looking after your family is wrong then I apologise.
What abut the kids in the other car?
Envy and jealousy really has nothing to do with it. I could afford one of these ridiculous cars if I wanted one. If we are going to get into armchair psychoanalysis, what about the low self esteem of those who feel the need to buy an impractical and antisocial car for reasons of 'status', but don't have the confidence to admit it, so come up with all sorts of frankly laughable justifications?
This.
I have three kids and if, heaven forbid, we where to be hit by another car I want them (and me) to be in the safest possible place, which for me at the time was an XC90 - if looking after your family is wrong then I apologise.
Hmmm, that age old chestnut!
For the record, I'm certainly not a snob, and a long way from being an inverse snob when it comes to cars. I have a massive respect for engineering, quality craftsmanship, performance, handling, the sound of their engines, the way they smell etc etc. I love cars basically!
But I can't afford a good one, and I realise and understand the impact they have on the environment. So I drive around in a cheap, economical old banger as its far more practical for my needs, and it's also significantly more economical than any vehicle that's been mentioned in this thread so far.
People get too caught up in justifying stupid cars to themselves for reasons only they can muster. No faux by four is a good car. They're all nasty pieces of cobbled together parts bin shite, covered in leather and big wheels, marketed to the well off with over productive loins as "safer for your children". What a pile of crap! At least a Ferrari or an Aston Martin makes no apologies for what it is, an outright performance car that's not trying to be socially responsible in any way.
If you REALLY cared about your children, you'd make them walk or cycle to school, and if that's too far, you'd move house so they were closer to school! I grew up living in the sticks, but my parents would just drop me off at the bus stop (a good 3 miles away) so I could then catch the bus to school.
My point is this: it's an arms race
EXACTLY!
And until everyone backs down and realises their own Tarquin, Freida and Tilly are no more important than the next family's kids, then it'll end up like the cold war with everyone getting bigger and bigger weapons until we reach a stalemate where none of them will fit on the UK's roads any more! Seemingly the Audi Q7 is nearly there already...
Boggles me how ANYONE could spend a small fortune on one of those monstrosities. If I absolutely had to have several kids, I'd buy something like a Caravelle and pocket the change towards something I could enjoy myself on quiet days and weekends.
I want them (and me) to be in the safest possible place, which for me at the time was an XC90
Wrong, you need one of these:
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Toyota Land Cruiser 4x4 Armoured LHD,
fitted 4.2 litre turbo diesel,
5 speed manual gear box,
[b]Jankel B4 armoured,[/b]
Anti-Lock Brakes,
Driver Airbag,
Passenger Airbag,
Side Airbag,
Power Windows,
Rear Window Defroster,
Rear Window Wiper,
Tinted Glass,
A/C:front and rear,
Cruise Control,
Radio / CD with CD Changer,
Power Mirrors,
Sunroof,
7 Seats,
[b]Dual batteries,
Fire suppression system,
external vehicle intercom,[/b]
Hi-Lo ratio,
Spare wheel,
POA from MOD sales
or you could go all judge dredd and get one of these:
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10 seater and a mere £35K
That's the vehicle I need to 'teach' stupid drivers to give way to the right at my nearest roundabout.
Some of these posts are literally amazing. Talk about social conscience and injustice all you like, I don't buy it. The crux of the matter is that some people don't like the fact that someone else can afford to buy and run a bigger and more expensive car than them. I bet the guys in their cayennes or x5s don't have an opinion on some other guy's vectra.
What abut the kids in the other car?
If their parents loved them they would be in a Q7, obviously. On a more serious note, what about the kids in the other car? Why would anyone care about some random stranger's kids as much as their own?
[i] cars with more mass impart far greater damage to cars with less mass and the greater the difference, the greater the damage[/i]
Surely if that's the arguement you'll be wanting to ban HGV's, 7.5t's, 3.5t's and anything else bigger than a Focus?
And looking through the data it seems that a new BMW 118d 5 door weighs more than my old BMW 535i (E39)!
And until everyone backs down and realises their own Tarquin, Freida and Tilly are no more important than the next family's kids
Do you have kids? My son is more important to me than everything else in the world added together. I'd jump under a bus for him without hesitation.
Having said that we have a skoda fabia, so I'm not sure what I'm doing on this thread!
PS I just passed my advanced motorbike test!
Some of these posts are literally amazing. Talk about social conscience and injustice all you like, I don't buy it. The crux of the matter is that some people don't like the fact that someone else can afford to buy and run a bigger and more expensive car than them. I bet the guys in their cayennes or x5s don't have an opinion on some other guy's vectra.
You can apply that all you want if we're talking about Ferrari's, Aston's, Porsche's, or even high end Beemers and Audi's (not X5's or Q7's though) and to an extent you would be right.
The thing is here, we're talking about faux by four tanks. Good for nothing except getting 7 people in (and only 5 of them in comfort). They're as pointless as an argument about them on an Internet forum! 😉
As an aside, just cos you can afford a nice car, and choose to run one, does not make you part of any kind of elite group. I'd love a nice car (again) but can't afford one right now (and it wouldn't be a faux by four) and I certainly would never deny someone spending their own cash on whatever they wanted to. But you should probably take note there are probably many more people out there as well off as you or more so, that simply don't care about cars in the slightest either and chose their vehicles on much more rational criteria. You should probably note as an aside, that faux by fours like the X5 and Q7 are about as socially acceptable as smoking in public these days, which is probably why you're experiencing such a massive backlash against them (aside from the fact they're crap and pointless).
Do you have kids? My son is more important to me than everything else in the world added together. I'd jump under a bus for him without hesitation.
Precisely my point
Doesn't matter whether I have kids or not, your kids are no more important to me than the next persons. And that is the point. All kids, regardless of parentage, are equally important. And all too often people forget this and try to wrap their kids in cotton wool, or treat them like they could do no wrong! Ever sat next to a family in a restaurant with kids that would just not behave, and parents that would just not discipline them at all? Same principle... Why are their kids so important that they can get away with being socially inept?
FWIW I have nothing against kids at all, but as a parent you should realise there are millions of other parents out there, all thinking their kid is more important than yours too. Hence the "protect my kids in an oversized hunk of junk 4x4" arms race perpetuates...
And looking through the data it seems that a new BMW 118d 5 door weighs more than my old BMW 535i (E39)!
Which proves the point that it's an arms race. Cars are getting heavier and heavier. The new 118d may weigh more than the E39 5-series but the new 5-series is even heavier still.
The crux of the matter is that some people don't like the fact that someone else can afford to buy and run a bigger and more expensive car than them.
Jeremy with that kind of attitude you are just proving my point. Your lack of grace, sensitivity and empathy towards others are the very characteristics people associate with the type of person who drive these cars and you're demonstrating that point perfectly. That you think for one second that it's because they are some how jealous or resentful of a person like that is actully quite funny.
If that's the kind of person you have to be in order to make enough money in life to afford that kind of car, then don't be surprised if people judge you for what you are and don't think for one minute that other people don't feel blessed that they don't have to be like that themselves.
Me, I've got a Nissan Patrol. Looks gorgeous, goes like the clappers, tows my caravan, comfy as anything, quiet in the cabin, had 7 seats (although I took the back row out because I don't need them). Oh, and a very capable offroader too. I love it. See my post on the caravan thread re environment.
All kids, regardless of parentage, are equally important
so you dont have kids then
And following on from that..
my car...
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It is a 3.5sd or twin turbo. 286BHP unmodified and I enjoy driving it.
Love it how people are an expert on me, because of the car I drive 😆 If I had a subscription to the Guardian as well would it cause widespread confusion?
As for the car, it's not a real 7 seater. It's a 5 plus 2, my teenage son can fit in the back row when needed but it comfortable for long drives. We do use the extra seats though when my parents come down to stay and we go out as a family. Otherwise we would be taking two cars. Offroad it's not bad either, when I have the summer 20" wheels it's not ideal, but come the winter months and I have the 18"s on with thinner mud & snow tires it has been towing horse boxes out of my brothers farm and across fields without issue.
Economy is rubbish though, my old one would return 30mpg and this was meant to be a more fuel efficient engine, yet I struggle to get a constant 27mpg.
so you dont have kids then
You're still missing my point. Your kids are no more important than mine, or anyone else's, to the next person along. Society fails to realise that in general and allows everyone to run around believing their kids are the most important thing in the world... To you they are, but they're not to anyone else (except their other parent of course).
I wonder, given the state of global over population not looking like its going to slow any time soon, just when society (and more importantly govts) is going to stop rewarding people financially or socially for having children? You might think me a devils advocate, but being serious now, child benefits and other financial or social benefits for having children came about post WW2 for the benefits of helping rebuild the country... Think about it, in China they all want a son only and baby girls get abandoned because they're seen as a burden. How many people in Britain today have children for anything other than a selfish reason? None. The only reason to have children any more is because you want them. Therefore it is in itself, a selfish act. Not that I'm criticising... Everyone is equally selfish. But the time will come, maybe not in our lifetimes, when having children is actively discouraged because each new child puts more burden on society than it will alleviate!
And people buying Q7's and X5's to transport them about in to protect their little pride and joy very selfishly, will only speed the whole process up!
We are all someone's child, and we are or all have been the most important thing in the world to someone, at some point at least... But not to anyone outside of your immediate family, just remember that!
If buying a Chelsea tractor were the only way to keep your kids safe in a car then I could understand the argument people make for buying and running them.
There isn't anything I wouldn't do for my kids either, including driving a Volvo estate 😀
The thing is here, we're talking about faux by four tanks.
In what way are they false? They do exactly what the designer designed them to do. The designer designed a big four wheel drive car because there was a demand for big four wheel drive cars. Do you think they're bad because they're not Defenders? That's a bit silly. Not all cars are the same. The only mountain bikes that [i]really[/i] need suspension are downhillers, so all the others must be "faux" sussers eh?
Mboy I think you have missed the point. My son is far more important to me than anyone elses and you cannot expect society to not act in a way that goes against this. You dont really have kids do you?
@geetee I don't think many people see the need to justify their car choice. It's pretty clear who here hasn't driven something like a twinturbo X5 or a tdv8 RRS though. They handle better than many cars with sporting pretensions, have a great driving position, are supremely comfortable and very very fast for such big vehicles. 1000 mile trips fly by in airmchair comfort. Awesome things really, if I was still doing stellar mileage I would have another faux by four in an instant.
[i]@geetee I don't think many people see the need to justify their car choice. It's pretty clear who here hasn't driven something like a twinturbo X5 or a tdv8 RRS though. They handle better than many cars with sporting pretensions, have a great driving position, are supremely comfortable and very very fast for such big vehicles. 1000 mile trips fly by in airmchair comfort. Awesome things really, if I was still doing stellar mileage I would have another faux by four in an instant. [/i]
Gotta disagree with you here though, for stellar mileage you want a good quality sporting saloon - far safer if only due to their lower centre of gravity, and quieter due to not having a 'hatch'.
Gotta disagree with you here though, for stellar mileage you want a good quality sporting saloon - far safer if only due to their lower centre of gravity, and quieter due to not having a 'hatch'.
We'll have to agree to disagree 🙂 After years travelling round Europe in all sorts of posh BMWs and Mercs, the absolute best car for this sort of thing I find is a TDV8 RRS, the combination of the high driving position (I find this less tiring over long distances) and the air suspension make it a brilliant continent crosser. I don't think they make them any more.
I understand your point entirely, it's the same one everyone else uses. I know that as a parent, there is nothing more important to you than your own child. I get that. My point is there's 7 billion other people on the planet, and only you and your spouse share the same view... Whether I have kids or not is wholly irrelevant.
So accepting that in the grand scheme of things, nobody's kids are actually more important than anyone else's (save for if you know yours is going to cure cancer, or create world peace perhaps) then society perhaps needs to start looking beyond the end of its nose a little bit, beyond the (all too well pointed out by some members on this thread) "I'm alright Jack, f*** you" attitude.
Life is still worth a fair bit in the UK thankfully, but in many countries life is cheap. Life will only get cheaper (and commodities more and more expensive) as the world population grows and grows. Whether we choose to be part of the solution to the worlds problems, or be selfish and look after our own, is what I'm trying to get at... Wanting to look out for your own is human nature, and is commendable, but in the modern world all too often it can mean putting others at risk or depriving others of an opportunity in life. You might just say that "life isn't fair" and indeed you may be right. But to say that attitudes can't or won't change? 3 generations ago or less, the motor car was seen as the thing that was going to revolutionise the world and solve all our problems. Then more recently it was international jet travel. Both are sliding rapidly down the scale of social acceptance as time goes by. When there's 50 billion people on the planet, 4/5ths of them can't afford to eat, to fuel a motorcar for a week costs an entire months average wages and nobody can get any life insurance, who's to say that people's perceptions on the importance of human life won't have altered?
On that note, enjoy the rest of your day... 😉
That's a bit silly. Not all cars are the same. The only mountain bikes that really need suspension are downhillers, so all the others must be "faux" sussers eh?
True to a certain extent. But what would be the MTB equivalent of a Q7?
A Nomad carbon with slick tyres, road bike gearing and a gel saddle the size of an armchair
The crux of the matter is that some people don't like the fact that someone else can afford to buy and run a bigger and more expensive car than them.
Except we already established that isn't the case. Just repeating something over and over again doesn't make it true. Just because you don't have a social conscience you assume no-one does.
Gotta disagree with you here though, for stellar mileage you want a good quality sporting saloon - far safer if only due to their lower centre of gravity, and quieter due to not having a 'hatch'.
You're only saying that because you're jealous of people in 4x4s, clearly.
I don't like that [i]someone else can afford to buy and run a bigger and more expensive car than[/i] me, because of the way they avoid tax. I think that may be a thrant for another time 😐
The government want us to think cars are bad so they can charge us more tax. Let's have a little think about this.... Pious, sorry Prius, NEW, shipped here from Japan (with nasty poisonous batteries in it - also you have to consider how the electricity is generated) v. old, well-maintained car. Nope, doesn't stack up in favour of the Pious (sorry, Molgrips, I know you have found your true love).
Something I thought of the other day, peds walk out in front of noisy cars, it's gonna be carnage when everything's electric and silent!
People are so ready to judge one on one's car, without having any regard for the rest of one's life. I use my car to tow my caravan, yes it probably gives out more co2 but remember the Tesco ad where the family have two cars and are rushing around ferrying their children hither and thither? Bet you I emit less co2 than that model!
If cars are SO bad, the government had a chance to reduce our car usage when the recession hit. What did they do? They introduced the scrappage scheme to ENCOURAGE people to buy new car.
Is an old banger really more environmentally friendly than a q7?
I reckon so, once you take into consideration all the resources required to create a brand new car... just my opinion though 🙂 but really my point is that we have to consider our carbon footprint (in the modern vernacular) in the round, rather than pick on our car usage.
What if you run over your own kids in the 4x4? Won't you feel like an idiot...
Interesting RichPenny.
Would they be more or less dead after being hit by a 4x4 than a 2 wheel drive car? Why am I more (or less) likely to run over children in my car than any other car?
Am I more or less likely to speed in my car? Given that I do tiny miles per year, mostly on motorways (where there are no children) am I more or less likely to squish a child than the "family hatchback" mob?
Sorry, but I'm not having it.
Who wants to run over a child anyway? It makes a terrible smell if the body parts get on the exhaust pipe and it takes ages to pick the bits out of the tread of your tyres, plus all those forms to fill in, going to the police station when you could be driving around depleting the ozone layer...
[b]JOKE![/b]
I bet the guys in their cayennes or x5s don't have an opinion on some other guy's vectra.
They probably dont have opinions on anything. It turns out you have to be dull, soulless and fairly square shaped to be allowed to buy one of those monstrosities.
Would they be more or less dead
The children of 4x4 owners are more or less lifeless anyway.
Ive seen them, there's lots in the lake district.
Dad, in the front. In the zone. Man and machine in harmony. Running on pure testosterone.
Kids in the back staring out the window. A dead look in their eyes.
There was a study conducted a few years ago that concluded that dads who have run of the mill cars make better fathers and their kids are less likely to act like ****s during a meal at a pub/restaurant.
Go DT. You're on a roll!!
davidtaylforth - MemberThere was a study conducted a few years ago that concluded that dads who have run of the mill cars make better fathers and their kids are less likely to act like **** during a meal at a pub/restaurant.
Ye gods, you don't live round here then!
BTW, I don't have any testosterone (nor am I envious of those who do).
Anyway, to the point. Are people hit by 4x4s deader than people hit by buses? Artics? Dustbin lorries? Scaffold lorries? (which completely give me the willies BTW - even after 40 years on the road), coaches. What about a Rolls Royce? They are big and heavy. See? On examination, picking on 4x4s doesn't really stand up.
I'm all for ostentatious displays of wealth. I love fast expensive cars. I genuinely smile when I see a Ferrari or Lamborghini, or a Rolls Phantom for that matter.
I just don't get why people would blow £60k on a posh Citreon Picasso 😀
