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It is a grade 2 scramble. Scrambling isn't within the remit of ML. The only ropework in ML is using a confidence rope. Scrambling requires a rope which is rated for climbing/harnesses and some gear. MCI is required for scrambling (formerly MIA).
I've been following YouTube channel 'Scottish Munro journey' and it turns out the guide Dave Fowler was the one from in the Skye , In Pin episode
That is terrible news - I had met Dave Fowler a couple of times, he was well respected and known in mountain circles in Scotland.
I await the formal reports before I consider too much more, but I am sure the lessons to be learned will be much discussed then.
Really horrible news all all round. Just goes to show that accidents can happen to even the most experienced. An awful job for the rescue team too.
The Fatal Accident Inquiry report was published yesterday. There’s probably no major surprises in the basic findings - they were all roped together and appears one of them has slipped/fallen and taken the others with them as particularly tricky part of the route.
Expert witness evidence doesn’t really identify specific failings but the inquiry (which somewhat unusually was presided over by a Sheriff who is on a MRT so understands the setting better than most) noted that they couldn’t find evidence of somethings which might be considered best practice - of course the only three people who know if they were done or even considered are unable to explain.
whilst many of those who play in the hills will read the press reports they perhaps won’t know where to find the full determination:
and I suspect those who do make it that far may not make it all the way through, the report highlights some interesting points about preparation for such trips with unknown clients, footwear, briefing of the clients and assessment of competence before getting to the point of no return.
The sheriff adopted the words of one of the experts witnesses, and whilst he stresses this is a matter for professionals guiding others in the mountains, I think the thinking points are actually just as relevant to groups of unknown “friends” and whilst talking here about scrambles could just as easily be about mountain biking or other adventurous pursuits:
“29. However, it is my view that meeting clients for the very first time immediately before beginning a venture like the Aonach Eagach increases the pressure on the leader. There is very little time to evaluate the clients and their equipment and very little opportunity to change the plan. It is very difficult for the leader to alter or cancel the venture when clients have travelled a long way for a single day excursion.
30. In my view, a better plan would be to meet the clients the day before and to undertake a short familiarization trip. This would give the leader an opportunity to assess the clients’ abilities and to introduce the techniques that would be used on the traverse of the Aonach Eagach. It would also provide an opportunity to make any changes to their equipment should they be required.”
The crux being
"69 This (the accident) was not an outcome that resulted from want of
reasonable precautions. It was, instead, a terrible accident that occurred despite
all reasonable precautions being taken, reinforcing the immutable fact that the
inherent risks of mountaineering, however mitigated, can never be entirely
eliminated.”
I've never done any proper climbing (I did a few days abseiling as part of army cadets though, and climbing back to the top of the quarry for another go was definitely the shitter part of the equation - I have the mass and flexibility that is far more suited to downward directed enjoyment)
So this might be totally obvious to climbers but not to me (and apologies if insensitive to the accident but it was now some time ago). But what's the point of being roped together on a really exposed ridge like that. If someone falls, you have the length of rope in time terms to do what? My maths head can't work out how the momentum of a falling person can be arrested by someone on an unstable footing like that ridge, where even being pulled a few feet would see you falling as well? Is there some sort of buffering device so you don't get such a sudden jerk?
The idea, to paraphrase Whymper*, is that if one falls into Strathclyde the other jumps across to Highland..
Or, more realistically, the leader can place occasional bits of gear as they proceed, to provide some security. Or stop and set up a (proper ) belay when they find a trickier bit ( with the other two already tied on)
* Probably not Whymper, but someone else.
Indeed the theory is that
a) folk don't jump, they slip or need an extra pull up. That actually is manageable and quick to do with a short rope, particularly if it's just draped behind boulders or guide takes string stances
b) if you're on a really challenging section, a good system will allow you to drop a load more rope out between guide and client(s) and set up a ground or body belay combined with rope behind boulders etc, so being able to cope with a more sudden or heavier fall
c) if desperate, prepare to jump off the opposite side of a ridge. This of course does not work if you can't reach the other side, if things happen suddenly or you've not got the minerals. Pretty desperate stuff really.
The crux being
"69 This (the accident) was not an outcome that resulted from want of
reasonable precautions. It was, instead, a terrible accident that occurred despite
all reasonable precautions being taken, reinforcing the immutable fact that the
inherent risks of mountaineering, however mitigated, can never be entirely
eliminated.”
you have quoted from the submission made by the crown rather than from the conclusions drawn by the sheriff. He said:
“[116] The Crown, in concluding their submissions, stated that “the inherent risks of mountaineering, however mitigated, can never be eliminated”. Submissions for West Coast Mountain Guides were in similar terms. It should be clear from my detailed consideration of the first possible scenario that I do not whole-heartedly adopt this somewhat fatalistic attitude. Nonetheless my concluding that no possible section 26(2)(e) or (f) findings arose from the second and third scenarios does mean that,on the basis of the evidence led in this Inquiry, I have to accept that there are specific risks, particular to the practice of short roping, that cannot be reasonably eliminated.”
30. In my view, a better plan would be to meet the clients the day before and to undertake a short familiarization trip. This would give the leader an opportunity to assess the clients’ abilities and to introduce the techniques that would be used on the traverse of the Aonach Eagach. It would also provide an opportunity to make any changes to their equipment should they be required.”
That would likely make such guiding unaffordable and put many guides out of business, so it ain't gonna happen.
Thanks for posting this, it's sobering stuff.
30. In my view, a better plan would be to meet the clients the day before and to undertake a short familiarization trip. This would give the leader an opportunity to assess the clients’ abilities and to introduce the techniques that would be used on the traverse of the Aonach Eagach. It would also provide an opportunity to make any changes to their equipment should they be required.”
That would likely make such guiding unaffordable and put many guides out of business, so it ain't gonna happen.
Organisation representing guides were participants in the inquiry and expert witnesses (experienced mountain instructors) gave evidence, if commercial viability was discussed it didn’t make it to the report. Assuming that all reputable guides adopted such an approach it would increase the cost of a single trip - but I don’t know how price sensitive the cost of a guide is? However the report does outline alternatives which might go someway to mitigating the risk.
I've never done any proper climbing (I did a few days abseiling as part of army cadets though, and climbing back to the top of the quarry for another go was definitely the shitter part of the equation - I have the mass and flexibility that is far more suited to downward directed enjoyment)
So this might be totally obvious to climbers but not to me (and apologies if insensitive to the accident but it was now some time ago). But what's the point of being roped together on a really exposed ridge like that. If someone falls, you have the length of rope in time terms to do what? My maths head can't work out how the momentum of a falling person can be arrested by someone on an unstable footing like that ridge, where even being pulled a few feet would see you falling as well? Is there some sort of buffering device so you don't get such a sudden jerk?
I used to “proper climb” quite a lot. I have never short roped (mostly because I was climbing not scrambling). I know people who did with claims that if required they would use the sort of bravado MOAB and the generalist describe of client falls left you jump right. I’ve never been convinced reaction times were fast enough, weight differences workable, balls big enough, or ropes going to appreciate a rapid dynamic movement across rough rock. It’s notable that neither of the expert witnesses seem to have suggested that leap off the other side is expected course of action. I dare say, someone somewhere has pulled it off, perhaps in winter. The short rope technique as explained to me 30 odd years ago was consistent with that in the FAI - it was not a “fall arrest” technique but rather a short taught rope that stops a slip becoming a fall.
I have some rock climbing experience but have never short roped. Climbing with friends of equal ability the risks seemed to out weight the benefits. If the ground was hard enough a rope was required we used belay.
" it was a matter of agreement that, as gleaned from the post mortem
examinations, David Fowler weighed 57 kilograms, Hazel Crombie 52 kilograms and
Graham Cox 90 kilograms."
I have held a fall on an ice pitch As leader I was holding my second of similar weight and I was belaying from a decent stance belayed to a dead man. As he was having trouble the fall was expected and the rope had no slack.
The idea of potentially having to hold an unexpected fall whilst not belayed and with a combined weight more than double mine below me on the rope is not attractive.
Buy I am obviously not an expert and people vastly more qualified than me think it us OK.
What does “As leader I was holding my second of similar weight and I was belaying from a decent stance belayed to a dead man” mean? TIA.
What does “As leader I was holding my second of similar weight and I was belaying from a decent stance belayed to a dead man” mean? TIA.
I was above the person who fell. There was almost no slack in the rope. I was reasonably secure. A deadman is an aluminium plate which is stuck into hard snow as a belay. so when my friends weight came on the rope there was no sudden shock and I could not be pulled of my feet as I was clipped onto the deadman
https://helixoperations.com/products/deadman
A German winter climbing pal of mine had some trouble coming through customs with a "deadman" .
They asked what's in the rucksack , he told them...he spent 3 hours in a back office
That was almost 35 years ago now I lived in Glencoe at the time . I never really enjoyed doing the Aonach Eagach as I didn't like how busy it was in summer, and it was at the absolute limit of my abilities in winter conditions
I've had a chance to read the report and the recent bits of the thread and thought I'd offer my thoughts.
Firstly, this is obviously a desperately sad story and also a really, really unusual occurrence.
I think the idea of 'short roping' is key to understanding the report. It's actually a pretty complicated thing and the report goes into quite a lot of detail about what it entails.
It can involve different techniques that provide different levels of security. Although people might use similar techniques in their personal climbing it's very different from what a guide would do with clients.
On straightforward, relatively low-consequence terrain, it might just involve the guide being above the clients and keeping the rope tight to them. The idea here is not to arrest a fall but to prevent one happening in the first place. On steeper ground, rudimentary belays can be made by running the rope over spikes or around blocks to provide additional security. It also makes it very easy to set up a proper belay to protect clients on short sections of more difficult ground. The 'short rope' element of it refers to the fact that not all the rope is employed but how much rope there is between guide and client(s) will vary from a few metres to maybe 15m+.
Deciding which of the above to do is a pretty complicated thing and one of the expert witnesses noted that it was one of the challenging aspects of this sort of guiding. All of this is a trade off between speed and security. By moving in this way, you sacrifice some security for speed.
It should never involve anyone having to hurl themselves off the opposite side of a ridge!
Reading back through this thread, and looking at the various photos has just reinforced my lack of any sort of desire to go climbing anything like this, at any time. It’s not that I haven’t got a head for heights, it’s just that I prefer to have the depths safely set on the other side of a secure barrier! 😖
I have seen guides on the snow arete from the Aiguille du Midi with all the clients descending, roped together, in front of the Guide. The Guide is last in the line, HOLDING on to the last 50cm of the rope. Not tied in.
These actually weren't climbers either! Skiers, in ski boots, with poles in one hand, and skis in the other.
This was 1990s, not recently.
Assuming that all reputable guides adopted such an approach it would increase the cost of a single trip - but I don’t know how price sensitive the cost of a guide is?
If every one-day of guiding requires a prior day of assessing competence then the cost will double. There will also be fewer guides available. Both of those factors are likely to lead to folk not bothering with guides and then possibly doing the route without, leading to an increase in accidents.
* Probably not Whymper, but someone else.
I have no idea whether Whymper said anything about jumping off ridges. He did say this though and it's worth remembering:
"Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are nought without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste; look well to each step; and from the beginning think what may be the end."
It's also worth remembering that the fatal accident on the descent from the Matterhorn was due to one person falling off and knocking or dragging the other three off.
Jebus, that and Crib Goch are scary - no way would I go up there.
I have seen guides on the snow arete from the Aiguille du Midi with all the clients descending, roped together, in front of the Guide.
I came up that roped to a mate at the end of a long day. The "you go one way, I'll go the other" is in your mind, but the reality is that you should be carrying coils and ready to shove the shaft of your axe into the snow. The view of Chamonix swimming pool several thousand feet down grabbed my attention. But... in terms of alpinism that's a stroll in the park.
Of course, on rock you can't use an axe for arrest.
the saying I'm familiar with is "if I fall into Italy, you jump into France". Wasn't aware it was whymper, but he did first assents like Grandes Jorasses, so completely plausible. Not something I ever had to do. 😀
Assuming that all reputable guides adopted such an approach it would increase the cost of a single trip - but I don’t know how price sensitive the cost of a guide is?
If every one-day of guiding requires a prior day of assessing competence then the cost will double. There will also be fewer guides available. Both of those factors are likely to lead to folk not bothering with guides and then possibly doing the route without, leading to an increase in accidents.
I understand your point, but I don’t think the sheriff was necessarily suggesting a whole day (elsewhere in the discussion one of the experts said this would be the ideal but if it wasn’t possible you need to be asking a lot more about experience, plans, weight, kit etc than is probably common).
I don’t know how many people get a guide for the AE now? Perhaps more would if the impression was not that anyone can just turn up and guide is showing them the way. I also don’t know how many people guide on the AE with people they’ve never met / worked with before?
it’s probably unlikely that guides are going to change their approach significantly - but perhaps some will ask more questions and if they don’t like the answers propose a “practice day” after all it’s not “just” the client who dies if people get it wrong or have overstated their ability. The point is “the mountains are dangerous and sometimes people die” doesn’t invite anyone to reflect on how to make it less likely.
I've seen a roped pair where one has fallen and the other arrested the fall, that was with ice axe and crampons...had it not worked I would 100% seen two people die .. it was a hell of a long way down to the glacier off that ridge
Jebus, that and Crib Goch are scary - no way would I go up there.
Reality is that most of the ridge is not that scary, and that most images that show huge fear/drop/scary are filmed from angles to maximise.
Here is a more useful set of images - a few key steep or narrow bits, with easy bits in between. Very sustained.
https://www.flickr.com/gp/matt_outandabout/04e1R153H5
The point is “the mountains are dangerous and sometimes people die” doesn’t invite anyone to reflect on how to make it less likely.
This is the crux of things for me
I want to learn. I want to be safer.
But I'm also prepared to take judged risks to do what I enjoy.
The point is “the mountains are dangerous and sometimes people die” doesn’t invite anyone to reflect on how to make it less likely.
If I'm reading it correctly that was pretty much the crown's line but not the Sheriff's.