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But still very few of us would ever see an expression like "2+2+2+2+2 * 0" which - don't ignore this point because it's important - is designed to trip people up.
FTFY 😛
Has anyone googled it yet? After all, that will guarantee the right answer.
An arguably poor analogy, but not a straw man; since I'm not distorting the opposing argument, I'm merely seeking to test it against an alternative scenario.
You're suggesting your alternative scenario is directly equivalent, hence strawman.
"[i]No it couldn't - it's far more fundamental to the whole way maths works.[/i]"
Well... yes, though I'm disappointed you didn't go to the effort of an example 🙂
"[i]You're suggesting your alternative scenario is directly equivalent, hence strawman. [/i]"
Touché 🙂
if you travel 100 miles north, 100 miles east, 100 miles south and 100 miles west, you don't end up where you started.Provided you start in the right place you do.
I know you're right, but racking the ole grey matter as to where you have to be for it to work. Certainly not in this latitude.
My take on it that the question is poorly constructed. Its unusual to see a mathmatic expresion like that id say.
Using the money in the pocket/shop keeper example, would you pull out a handful of 2p and then go i have 2+2+2+2+2 etc= 48p or 24 x 2 = 48p. Fairly certain we would all count how many 2p we had, and do the multiplication.
Using algrebra, would you use a+a+a+a+a+a or 6a?
When i first looked at the question, i struggled to count the number of 2's that appear in the question, always have done on a cumputer screen. My eyes just lose focus for some reason and i usually have to count them a few times to make sure im consistent.
ITT: Idiots.
"[i]I know you're right, but racking the ole grey matter as to where you have to be for it to work. Certainly not in this latitude. [/i]"
Start at any point 50 miles south of the equator.
They do the maths, yes. They don't write down an expression on paper. That's one of my key points - the ability to do something is not the ability to read an expression of the act.
That doesn't matter. As I just said with my example, you might not need to write that down, but you do need to enter it into a calculator, which means you will use the multiply button and you will need to enter it in the right order*
*(or if you have a flashy scientific calculator that does precedence for you then you'd still need to know it to have any idea if the calculated answer is roughly correct or not)
And don't tell me that "normal people" don't do sums like these.
I'm frankly disappointed that no-one has accused me of sustaining a devil's advocate position purely to cover the fact that I'd forgotten something I learned 30 years ago. No wonder this forum's rich pickings for trolls 🙂
My take on it that the question is poorly constructed. Its unusual to see a mathmatic expresion like that id say.
I think everyone agrees it is designed to trip you up. That's sort of the point of the exercise. But I think most folk would realise it may not be quite what they think and give it a second look.
Something simpler like 2 + 3 x 5 is [i]not[/i] designed to trip you up, but it sounds like some of the forumites would get it wrong (it's 17, not 25).
"[i]As I just said with my example, you might not need to write that down, but you do need to enter it into a calculator, which means you will use the multiply button and you will need to enter it in the right order[/i]"
But you presumably remember the days when we wrote (as we still do, of course) "sin 90 = 1" but calculator syntax was "90 sin = 1"?
People struggled a bit when they first used a calcuator for trig because [i]they understood the operation perfectly well but they didn't know the syntax[/i]. It wasn't that the calculator's syntax didn't make sense, it's just that people had never used it.
You can understand how to count your change without needing to understand arithmetic syntax.
I wonder how many people there are who (a) would struggle with working out "501 - 20 - 20 - 20 x 3" and (b) would calculate darts scores in a fraction of the time that any of us would. I would guess quite a few.
m frankly disappointed that no-one has accused me of sustaining a devil's advocate position
I considered it but I'm happy enough to play "Devil's Prosecutor" 😀
Regarding the car one: don't you start 25 miles south west of the north pole? 😀
Tom has 5 apples, Dick and Harry each have 8 apples, they pool them together and divide them equally between them.
'Normal people' would correctly do the sum by adding 5 + 8 + 8 and then dividing by 3
I'm sure a fair percentage would not know that it should be written (5+8+8)/3
It doesn't stop them being able to do the sum though.
To use your own argument against you. Most people don't need trig in their day to day lives, therefore:
[img] 
?1279885944[/img]
"[i]25 miles south west of the north pole[/i]"
South-east, surely? 😉
Oops. Just re-read the question:
if you travel 100 miles north, 100 miles east, 100 miles south and 100 miles west, you don't end up where you started.
So yes, [i]50[/i] miles south-west of the north pole. I think. Probably.
Normal people don't do this. It's too cold and their tyres get stuck. 😉
Oh hang on, I thought you were being cleverly facetious. There is no "south west of the north pole". At the north pole, there is no west and no east - and, indeed, no north.
If you start 50 miles from the north pole (all such points being directly south of it) you can't go 100 miles north. You can go 50 miles north and keep going on the same circumference for a further 50 miles, which takes you to 50 miles south of the pole on the opposite longitude. From there, 100 miles east takes you to some other point 50 miles south of the pole, and then you head 100 miles south. You're now 150 miles from the pole and no amount of westerly travel will get you to your original point 50 miles south of the pole.
The only answer is "50 miles south of the equator".
Tsk. Basic navigation. If I may hoist you by your own paraphrased petard, "[i]Who says standards of navigation are slipping eh?[/i]" 😉
But one can still be south and west of it though, even if south and west make no sense when you are actually standing directly on it.
Can't you?
[i]*confused*[/i]
Edit: ah right now I get you. Normal people don't do this 😀
[img] 
?1256847756[/img]
"[i]one can still be south and west of it though[/i]"
No. You can never be to the east or west of either pole, only to the south of the north pole or north of the south pole, or standing on either.
This thread just keeps on giving.
I must admit when I glanced at the problem I straight away thought "0" but the third post down was "What's the operator precedence?"
Then I remembered you do multiplication / division first.
So of course there is absolutely no shame in not remember operator precedence but going "Ner, ner, nerrr! I'm not listening, maths is for geeks!" When you are told the correct answer and why is pretty pathetic really.
And appealling to the argument that no one would ever write an expression that way misses the point entirely. This one [b]is[/b] written this way to see if you know how to work it out or probably more importantly that you accept the correct answer when its pointed out to you.
Oh and southwest of the north pole - classic
Top entertainment lads !
GrahamS - I remember being taught this as a kid of course, and all subsequent use thereof from basic algebra onwards. All my life it's just been 'obvious' I guess.
But we never used an acronym at school though, so I've learned something, ta ! ...
Oh, and Bez wins, for the avoidance of doubt 😉
(B)less (M)y (D)ear (A)unt (S)ally
Is how we were originally taught it at school to remember - no sign of O and M and D the other way round.
How come this is still going on?
(B)less (M)y (D)ear (A)unt (S)ally
Had they not invented Exponents/Orders when you were at school?
Sure it wasn't [i]"Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally"[/i]?
That's a common version (P=Parenthesis, E=Exponent).
M and D the other way round.
Yeah, doesn't matter which way round the M and D are, or the A and S for that matter.
Hugely impressive this is still going
Yeah, but what is it [b]about[/b] ?
It's all about insecure types trying to assert themselves and prove that they are somehow superior to other people, by ridiculing and belittling others.
Many of them seem to lack any sense of perspective or even a sense of humour. One sad old perv even tried to get a young lass to take her clothes off. 🙁
It's funny though, in a 'watching a nerdy kid have a tantrum after you've thrown all his exercise books all over the classroom' type of way. 😀
I've enjoyed it immensely. Coon't actually give a fig about the original sum thing though really, I'll be perfectly honest. It din't matter before and it don't matter now, xept in the minds of a few anally retentive socially inadequate types...
Tom has 5 apples, Dick and Harry each have 8 apples, they pool them together and divide them equally between them.'Normal people' would correctly do the sum by adding 5 + 8 + 8 and then dividing by 3
I'm sure a fair percentage would not know that it should be written (5+8+8)/3
It doesn't stop them being able to do the sum though.
You can't just post that and not give the answer!
It's all about insecure types trying to assert themselves and prove that they are somehow superior to other people, by ridiculing and belittling others.
Says the man flushing my head down the loo and giving me a wedgie to try to look cool in front of the girls 😀
I never excluded myself from any of it, Graham. 😐
I am at least open and honest about my failings/issues. Unlike most on here....
Tell that to my ophthalmologist. I've still got biro ink in my cornea. 😆
Anyway 481 posts. I've officially beaten my previous record of 463 posts, set by [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/the-boy-girl-puzzle ]The Boy Girl Puzzle[/url].
A new personal best.
Yay me 😀
Yay me
And stopped a certain elf getting in the final word. Which is probably more important. This thread can now be humanely put to sleep.