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Over a million people signed the roll back Brexit petition. Think this one will be as effective.
Ah the USA.
They exist there too, not to the same extent but they have rural gravel and lots of forest service roads that anyone can drive on. As long as you go off the beaten track you'll find them, that's why events like the Gambler 500 exist.
<span style="color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji'; background-color: #eeeeee;">'She couldn’t get her head round the idea that a decelerating vehicle has a negative force' I'm curious as to where you took this. Is that why pedestrians fly over the bonnet when you hit them rather than just launching further down the road?</span>
They exist there too, not to the same extent but they have rural gravel and lots of forest service roads that anyone can drive on
Much of the gravel road network is two-way though, and there is a clear distinction between gravel and non-gravel which is well known so it would be straightforward to program the car not to go down them. The ones I saw were well signposted as you turned onto them - and of course the road surface changed visibly. And there are far fewer gravel roads than tarmac. On top of that, they are mostly in remote locations where few people live so I'm willing to bet most people live their whole lives without going on them at all.
In the UK on the other hand most of the road network is actually single track so the chances of needing to go on some are pretty high.
Bit off the main topic.
On the idea that British roads are too tricky for autonomous vehicles. That is the reason asda is going to use them in North London.
If you are in Wales and want to vote to keep the law you can do so with this petition:
Reply To: New (?) Warburton’s advert!!!!
A cycling friend popped over the border into Wales on her motorbike today - she seemed to feel that pedestrians seem to either be unable to judge a motorbike at 20mph or believe that the change gave them the right to wander into the road at will. (Which was my experience on Cambridge today as well!)
@molgrips that graphic doesn't say what you think it does, a C or unclassified road isn't necessarily a single lane, it's just not an A or B road. Think about it, is your street an A or B road? (I'm hoping it's neither to prove my point!)
No, plenty of C's with a white line in the South East but likewise there are A and B roads in Wales where the white line disappears for short or long periods. That's kind of my point, it's really random and inconsistent.
Anyway, back on topic, the implications of the 20 limit are now largely academic as everyone seems to be ignoring it now, in my neighborhood at least.
<span style="color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji';">"A cycling friend popped over the border into Wales on her motorbike today – she seemed to feel that pedestrians seem to either be unable to judge a motorbike at 20mph or believe that the change gave them the right to wander into the road at will. (Which was my experience on Cambridge today as well!)"</span>
Maybe because it's the law?
Applies to pretty much every road in the UK except M-ways and a few other places - pedestrians HAVE the right of way, motor vehicles don't.
There's pretty good adherence here in the Amman Valley, Carmarthenshire. Coupled with the 40mph limit with average speed cameras on the Brynamman mountain road things are almost reasonable enough for road riding in safety here.
Having said that though, a friend yesterday posted about the third! Operation Snap prosecution that has resulted from footage of close passes that he has been subjected to.
400,000 sign a petition demanding scrapping of the law, but only a couple of hundred (at most) turn up in Cardiff at a protest march yesterday.
There were 10,000 in Bangor at a Wales independence march.
Hmmm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-66902150
Gwaelods link is what I thought I would find when opening the 'roasters' thread 😆
It was publicised for ages yet people are only protesting it now? Probably not the level of forward thinking you want for doing more than 20 in a residential area.
If we can also adopt light controlled pedestrian crossings that prioritise the pedestrian like in Europe that would also be great. 5 minutes stood waiting in the rain here while drivers go through sat in the dry 🙄
The difference between the number of petition signatures and the number of protesters is quite something.
400,000 sign a petition demanding scrapping of the law, but only a couple of hundred (at most) turn up in Cardiff at a protest march yesterday
Probably as they'd have had to get off their arses and out of their cars to walk?🤣
Also ironically think the roads are too dangerous to walk and cycle on 🙄
Well it’s quite a journey from Tufton St to Cardiff especially at 20mph
If we can also adopt light controlled pedestrian crossings that prioritise the pedestrian like in Europe that would also be great. 5 minutes stood waiting in the rain here while drivers go through sat in the dry 🙄
That would be great. Also lights that either prioritise roads with actual traffic on them or turn off late at night.
Why we still use timed lights in the 21st century is beyond me.
Why we still use timed lights in the 21st century is beyond me.
I think many are on sensors? Box with a red LED on top of the lights? Or sometimes a weight sensor under the rectangular cut section just behind the line?
Oh many are, but they are still installing timed lights all over the place and not upgrading them.
Funny how 20mph has appeared in some Scottish local authorities without the same level of fuss. What could it be about the devolved Welsh Government that has attracted the ire of Tufton Street?
Funny how 20mph has appeared in some Scottish local authorities without the same level of fuss. What could it be about the devolved Welsh Government that has attracted the ire of Tufton Street?
It appeared in many Welsh towns and cities also without much fuss, though there was some. It was putting it in national legislation as a default that meant it could be deliberately misrepresented so as to raise peoples' ire that gave the opportunity for it to be treated as a "wedge" issue (is that the word).
There's an Op-ed here today about Conservatives in Wales and how they are trying to stoke it up as a wedge issue, despite it being them who began the process to bring in the legislation in the first place.
Don't know what the fuss is. Just been over from Manchester, via our caravan in Prestatyn and then across to Harlech. Prestatyn to Harlech is 60 miles but took about 2 hours. Lots of short 20 zones but that possibly delayed us by a couple of minutes at most.
I think many are on sensors? Box with a red LED on top of the lights? Or sometimes a weight sensor under the rectangular cut section just behind the line?
Aren't they proximity sensors under the road rather than weight?
I know a hack for the older ones was to pop a rare earth magnet as low as you could on the bike and position it over the line of the sensor to trigger the "car waiting" part of the timer.
And as soon as any of the sensors fail, or send a gibberish signal, the whole thing does default to a simple timer.
I was impressed in France recently where you drive into a town or village (at 30kph) and a red light is showing at a crossing with nobody on it. If you’re travelling at 30kph or under it goes green, if not it stays red for a bit. It’s a genius idea for calming speed without humps.
There's one on the A75 at one of the little villages around Castle Douglass. Great idea, been there a few yrs now.
Looks like it's working
On Saturday, a march against the speed limit’s introduction attracted over one hundred protesters
😅😅😅😅😅
There’s one on the A75 at one of the little villages around Castle Douglass. Great idea, been there a few yrs now.
There was one on the A78 through Fairlie, not sure if it was deactivated at the end of the trial phase but barring a few teething issues it was a great idea.
Sample analysis of two routes has indicated a journey time increase of between 45-63 seconds along the two 2.5km routes in Cardiff and Wrexham
OMG 60 seconds, how will we cope?
Folks over in Anglesey not too impressed. But they like to moan. Here in North Wales most people I’ve spoken to are ok with it, most have taken it with jest….lots of funny moaning.
It was weird being in England with 30mph limits on streets that in [s]Scotland[/s] Stirlingshire, some city centres, the Borders and Wales would be 20mph this weekend.
FTFY, it's going to be bad* enough round here when they decriminalise parking and start actually enforcing it without 20mph limits as well.
*depending on your viewpoint, I'm going to be sitting back laughing at them all.
It's pretty telling how much of the anti campaign is just lies, isn't it? Just an admission that they can't achieve what they want with the truth.
What is it about being asked to drive a bit slower that attracts these utter fruitcakes?
I'm a bit disappointed chemtrails didn't get a mention.
We have had a 20mph speed limit through our small town now for a couple of years (England). Most of the drivers ignore it, don't know it's a 20 zone, or thought that the 'previous humps when removed' meant they could just carry on as normal.
Hopefully the 20mph limits come into force in England soon.
20 here is definitely being ignored on our road. that said I think the average speed has come down. most were going well over 30. now it's probably closer to 30. so better but still a long way from 20
Pretty good adherence round the Abergavenny and Crickhowell area from what I've seen today. But that could be down to the amount of old biffers who drive at half the speed limit regardless round here anyway 🤣
A few council lorries out and about updating signage and the numbers on the road too, should shut up a few of the moaners.
What is it about being asked to drive a bit slower that attracts these utter fruitcakes?
I had a look at the pictures of the protest in Cardiff on Saturday and recognized a few faces from the Anti Lockdown and Independence protests, seems to be mainly the same small group who turn up every time rather than separate groups.
Bit conflicted today. Overtake the Dacia Sandero, (on my bike) or hold back? Decided not to antigonise anyone and slowed down a bit.
I said a couple of days ago that compliance was good in NE Wales, well as I left work rather late tonight and there was less traffic, not so much. Not enough traffic volume and cars doing 20 to slow all the speeders down.
"Lose your car lose your freedom", ah, so if you don't have a car you aren't free? That'll come as a shock to a whole lot of people.
Not too shocked to see a bunch of the conspiracy talking points are the same as "15 minute cities" and all that insanity. Countdown to "eating bugs" in 3, 2, 1...
Bit conflicted today. Overtake the Dacia Sandero, (on my bike) or hold back? Decided not to antigonise anyone and slowed down a bit.
My understanding is that the 20mph limits are on roads which need a lower speed limit for safety, so that applies to all road users.
At some point a cyclist will break Rule#1 and get charged with "cycling furiously", which will make the "war on drivers" people spontaneously combust.
cycling furiously no longer exists ( certainly in Scotland) Its dangerous or careless cycling same as for car drivers. Bicycles are NOT able to be prosecuted for speeding.
Regarding Abergavenny the 20mph limit has been in force there for quite a while through town, at least six months if not more. There was a confusing stretch of 30 between the 20 and the 60 which wasn’t helpful. I guess that is no more.
unfortunately in Hampshire the county council have stopped any new 20mph limits being introduced until they do a review or something. What we have is a very right wing gammony jag driving council who are frightened to spend any money on road safety. General policy has been only to introduce road safety measures when there has been a death attributable to the road layout. This is a bit worrying when the pavement between my house and the kids school is about 30” wide right up against a wall and artics thunder by at 30 mph plus. Hopefully things will change with the new transport policy that prioritises walking and cycling over cars but it’s kind of being forced on the council by govt policy rather than them realising the opportunity to push it themselves and make residents lives better. I’m happy to drive at 20 through other peoples towns, why shouldn’t everyone drive at 20 through my town?
I can't WAIT to discuss this at length with my Drakeford hating, car loving, ex-police father-in-law at Christmas, this is despite him only leaving the house to go to ASDA or walk the dog these....
I'll stick "War on Motorist", "Stealth Tax", etc on my bingo card now...
Bit conflicted today. Overtake the Dacia Sandero, (on my bike) or hold back? Decided not to antigonise anyone and slowed down a bit.
The 20mph is for the safety of all - pedestrians, other cyclists, even cars.
Therefore to overtake beyond 20mph breaks both the intention of the speed limits as well as Rule No.1. No matter what your transport type.
The encouraging thing is is that people have generally slowed down just a bit on all roads, and the talk in the pub has changed from "Drakeford's a control-freak" to discussing the finer points of where is and is not affected, how much difference it actually makes, and whether in the long run anyone will be bothered to push their LA for the tweaks they feel necessary. The amount of times I've heard "I never realised that X road was Y speed?" - so people have started looking at the signs, that's a a good thing.
Live on the Wirral and they are introducing here. Think its a great thing. When driving I notice 2 types... Those that drive close, sometimes gesticulating but always showing signs of exasperation and aggression and those that appear behind you quickly (obviously speeding) then slow to match your speed and typically also drop back to a reasonable distance. The latter may need some education and hopefully they wont need others to remind them of the law the others I see as "sport" and the responsibility of managing their blood pressure lies with them...
Drakeford’s a control-freak
He's simultaneously described as a Nazi and a drip. I don't think people really think these statements through very well.
Drippy appearance, Nazi behaviour. Simples.
The builders in the flat opposite mine have used both those sayings in the same sentence most days, although they use them more generally for all politicians not just Drakeford.
Regarding Abergavenny the 20mph limit has been in force there for quite a while through town, at least six months if not more. There was a confusing stretch of 30 between the 20 and the 60 which wasn’t helpful. I guess that is no more.
Still there, both coming from the Hardwick roundabout and heading towards Neville Hall Hospital from Crickhowell. The 20 limit has grown the last few weeks though so plenty of bits that used to be 30 are now 20 and most of the drivers are adhering to it.
Cardiff is speeding up though, think the novelty has worn off despite a lot of them having been in place for well over 6 months.
It's quite time dependent though, rush hour is still as bad as it ever was but during the day and evening it's much more 20-ish.
Looks like the Tories election campaign is based around banning 20mph limits. What a bunch of knobs.
To quote Lord Farquhar:
“Some of you may die, but that’s a price I’m willing to pay.”
since having driven in Wales a lot since the 20 mph introduction, I've actually noticed there are loads of 20's on my commute in Manchester - I cycle so ignore it, but so do all the drivers ! Be good if these get enforced.
I've not been following this thread, but just a few observations. I live in Shropshire nearish to the Welsh border and take full advantage of having that beautiful country on my doorstep.
Yesterday l decided on a whim to spend the day motorcycling so did a 220 mile loop from Ludlow across mid Wales to Barmouth, north along the coast then home via the southern part of Snowdonia.
Things I noticed.
Most (almost all) people seem to comply with the 20mph limits. Even white van couriers and delivery drivers
I know from previous visits, a lot of these places had already changed to 20mph limits some time ago, so formalising it nationally doesn't feel especially radical or onerous.
It feels entirely natural and appropriate for sleepy rural villages and hamlets. Not too slow, just sensible and respectful towards rural communities
I got a few waves and nods from locals, presumably grateful that drivers/riders are actually obeying the rules!
Most speed limits haven't been reduced. Wales is sparsely populated and the vast majority of the roads are still 50 or 60mph limits. So effects on journey times are insignificant.
Now this was a quiet weekday, it's probably not quite so idyllic on a busy bank holiday with a massive influx of foreigners like me. I also know that a few too many of my fellow bikers can be a bit ****tish in this regard. But all in all I reckon people will quickly adapt and this will be a non issue very soon.
There's a noticeable increase in problem cars on the side roads on my cycle commute in the last couple of weeks. I'm guessing that some drivers are trying to avoid the 'slow' 20 mph main roads by using rat-runs. This isn't helpful for us cyclists - roads that used to be dead are now used by drivers who must get ahead. This morning alone, in about 4 miles on road, I had 2 dodgy overtakes, and about 3 or 4 speeding cars on a previously dead road which runs adjacent to a main road for 1/2 mile.
The 20mph is for the safety of all – pedestrians, other cyclists, even cars.
Therefore to overtake beyond 20mph breaks both the intention of the speed limits as well as Rule No.1. No matter what your transport type.
Sorry, looping back from a couple of days ago, but I didn't overtake mainly due to the Rule 1 clause. I'm pretty sure this car was only doing about 15 however, (I'm not that quick on my fully commuter equipped beast!) but I didn't have a GPS on to actually know.
Out the the motorbike yesterday, it was depressing to see just how many 20mph signs have been defaced. OTOH, traffic has definitely slowed down; as others have said, not to 20, but high-twenties where mid-30s was common is a win. I even notice it walking on the local canal towpath where it has a road alongside. Conversation has become possible without tyre-noise drowning out the words. 🙂
One benefit that doesn't seem to have been widely acknowledged is that people seem to be much more inclined to pause and let you out of side roads now (and TBH, I reckon it was already pretty good for that round here). For many journeys that alone will more than offset any perceived slowing-down.
I look forward to getting out on the leg-powered bike to see how things have been effected.
I think people get impatient and overtake or drive aggressively when they feel held up, and they feel held up when they think they ought to be able to go much faster than they are. IF you maie people slow down, they become less impatient because why rush? I have seen this on motorways - people will try and rush past when they think the road is going to be open and they can drive at 90, but once traffic builds up to a certain point and it's continuous 60 traffic they give up on the 90 idea and sit back, until it clears again.
Interesting article about the popularity of 20 mph zones
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/02/tory-20mph-speed-limit-benefits
On a related topic. Where I live is old narrow cobbled streets. acouple of months ago a bridge and a couple of streets where blocked off to stop rat runners. Its made a huge difference to the quality of life. Initially there was a huge outcry from the usual noisy suspects. Its all gone quiet now as it has made zero difference to the surrounding roads that are still open to thru traffic but the closed roads are so much nicer. In the summer hundreds of people use Shore to sit out and drink beer, coffee and eat ice cream. Now they no longer have ratrunning cars to deal with and have a dozen benches instead. The vast majority of folk using these roads are not in cars and never were
Pardon my ignorance, but is this just in towns and villages etc? Heading down on the weekend for the first time in about 15+ years, I would have been far too young to drive at that point.
I did have a quick google and it suggests areas where you'd get 200 or more people? So assumed towns etc, just wanting to clarify. If it's mainly in built up areas, much like a lot of Scotland, I don't see a problem with it and wouldn't complain about it being imposed elsewhere.
Pardon my ignorance, but is this just in towns and villages etc?
It's anywhere there's streetlights and no other signs. This means residential areas, pretty much because main routes in built up areas are mostly still being kept at 30 - but there will be signs.
Been to St Davids in Wales for a mini break and drove home to Rossendale on the Cardigan Bay coast road.
My comments on the numerous village 20mph limits on what is otherwise a fairly fast trunk road.
The first couple of 20mph limits didn't have any warning - derestricted straight down to 20mph, not a problem but didn't make for relaxing driving. Later villages had a 40mph 'buffer' so stepped everything down a bit before the 20mph which was better.
In the 20mph zones - everyone was abiding, nobody tailgating us, nice and chilled, slow enough to have a good nosey at stuff (we then stopped a few times for a wander round a few places).
However my parents won't go back to Porthmadog (been going for 40+ years) because of it🤷♂️ (they are Daily Mail reader😖)
I was in North Wales in September and again a month ago - I’ve been visiting for over 35 years. I realised that a lot of the villages near to Caernarfon and on the Llyn Peninsula - Nefyn and Morfa Nefyn, Trefor and many more have had 20mph limits for many, many years, the back road into Porthmadog has and indeed, Talysarn has been 15mph for a long time - what I’m saying is that they have been in place long before the latest legislation with no fuss.
My sister is a taxi driver in mid Wales and apoplectic about anything that restricts untrammeled car use.
I shall just abide by the rules, after all I live in a big city which has had 20 limits in various places for at least a decade. Although it can seem very slow to drive it makes little journey time difference but makes walking and cycling better and decreases aggression on the roads generally.
Well in my English city very few are actually driving at the new 20 limit. in fact if you do people overtake.... the road near us I would say is slightly slower overall as most would do 40ish down it, and now most are doing 30ish. about as many doing 20 as there are bellends who use the speed bump to test their 0 -60 times
I recently drove from Bristol to Abersoch, and was pleasantly surprised by the high level of compliance with the new limits. The usual suspects will lose their minds of course.
My sister is a taxi driver in mid Wales and apoplectic about anything that restricts untrammeled car use.
Never got this. Surely traffic restrictions -> more cycling/walking -> more people deciding they don’t need a car -> better traffic flow and more taxi customers?
Just heading back to Pembroke after a short week in the Lakes. 30mph feels outrageous as a limit in little villages like Cartmel or Coniston. I know there are some local 20 limits around but it can’t be long before 20 becomes the norm?
However my parents won’t go back to Porthmadog (been going for 40+ years) because of it🤷♂️ (they are Daily Mail reader😖)
I admire the commitment to their convictions, however misguided…
Well in my English city very few are actually driving at the new 20 limit. in fact if you do people overtake….
Not in a city here but I get overtaken doing 30 in a 30 or 40 in a 40 fairly often now - in the middle of the zones too not like it's as it becomes a faster limit or anything. Also see more people starting to just drive around queues at red lights and go once there's a gap.
The 20 mph imits on the main route to/from Cardigan has been 20 for a long time. I'm in North Wales most weekends and it's been fine. I did get someone tear past me to get to the one-stop shop about two seconds before I passed it at 20 mph last weekend - generally folk are OK. I've not ridden on the roads since the change down there as I've brought the bike back from our static caravan (and we're getting rid this year) !
It's very easy to suddenly be going faster than 20, or indeed forget. One thing I have noticed is there are loads of 20's in Manchester - not really paid attention before as I'm usually on the bike, and not the car.
Also see more people starting to just drive around queues at red lights and go once there’s a gap.
Dashcam and report?
It’s very easy to suddenly be going faster than 20, or indeed forget
I used the limiter on my car the other day. Worked well.
Never got this. Surely traffic restrictions -> more cycling/walking -> more people deciding they don’t need a car -> better traffic flow and more taxi customers?
Without wanting to insult the posters sister, that view requires a bit of independent, long term thinking.
We were in North Wales for a couple of nights last weekend - totally forgot the new limit and had a shock when I saw the signs. Feels very slow at first but once you make the mental adjustment it was very pleasant driving through places nice and steady, and walking around the places we stopped was definitely much nicer.
Down the pub:
'It's just a money making scheme. I bet they've bought a load of new mobile camera vans '.
'Hang on if you stay at or below the speed limit how are they going to make money?'
'Well . . .er . . .um. . .Look a squirrel'.
In other news we've now got a 20 mph, then a 30 mph and then a national speed limit down the lane to ours. Fantastic I can now legally scatter the horse riders, joggers and cyclists into the hedges with impunity*.
* This is a joke. Only the school bus hits 50 mph. Tosser.
It’s very easy to suddenly be going faster than 20, or indeed forget
But its not in a 30? Really - if you cannot control your speed then.................................
Controlling your speed is one thing, remembering the limit is another when there isn't necessarily a repeater to remind you and your car is helpfully telling you it's actually a 30 limit.
Learned behaviours take a while to overcome, with better road design it's even harder to forget, Stirling has given all the minor roads priority at crossroads heading to the dance studio my sister in law teaches at. Works really well.
Compare and contrast to Glasgow and the 20mph limit in the city centre might as well not exist. If they actually made some of the stroads they've ended up with two way then people may slow down. Fling a segregated cycle path in as well whilst they're at it.