At risk of sounding like a broken record, most people are in favour of this stuff, but the antis tend to be better organised. If you feel strongly the other way, please, please get involved with your local active travel group (even if that's just to do a bit of SoMe reposting/contacting councillors etc). This is a link to the Greater Manchester one, there will be equivalents in most places.
Regular driver in Wales and it really doesn't bother me. It was great cycling through Rhudlan on Friday near rush hour as no cars passed me at all (road bike). Same in Rhyl.
I do have to remember when driving as you soon hit 20 when pulling away, but it's way more relaxed driving.
385 is not very many.
Where do you draw the line? What's your personal limit for acceptable casualties on the road? 386? Or would you change your mind at 400? What about if one of those 385 included one of your children? Could you genuinely say at that point that you think that 385 is "not too many" and an acceptable toll in order to drive at 30mph in a village instead of 20mph?
There's no evidence that a 20mph limit has caused problems beyond the made-up claims that driving slightly slower increases emissions. It doesn't affect traffic flow, and if anything improves it as it makes it easier for people to pull out of junctions.
We've had the new 20mph zones in the Highlands for the last 6 months.
Are they generally observed - no
Are people going a bit slower than previously - yes
The issue as ever is consistency in implementation. A few houses on the side of the road (not enough to call a settlement or have a road sign or street lights) on a rural national speed limits B road is a 20mph zone in one instance and continues at 60mph in another with no discernible difference the nature of the 'community'. My local town (Nairn) has a 20mph zone than goes on for about half a mile of fields after the last dwelling on one road but the national speed limit sign is before the last dwellings on another. One small hamlet with a B road through it has maintained its 30mph on the B road with 20mph on the side roads. An even smaller hamlet 2 miles further down the same road is 20mph through it on the same B road. With inconsistency comes confusion and lack of respect.
I don’t think there was just one reason.
From the gov.wales site :
We made this change to:
- reduce the number of collisions and severe injuries from them (also reducing the impact on the NHS from treating the people who are injured)
- encourage more people to walk and cycle in our communities
- help to improve our health and well-being
- make our streets safer
- safeguard the environment for future generations.
No mention of traffic flow but lots for safety or safety related (encourage people to walk and cycle more)
There's also money being spent on 'active travel' routes to encourage people to cycle to work more, for example. One of the routes goes through PontyPridd park (think that might be part of the Taff Trail), which is locked up at some stupid early hour, so not really an encouragement to use it for commuting - although in reality it probablky OK as people seem to work as few hours as possoble here and 'rush hour' seems to start about 4pm.
I assume there are some stats from Scotland where there have been 20mph limits in urban areas for a while
So where are they and what do they show? Im going to guess they are inconclusive given neither side in the debate is using them to their advantage.
Key stat to note, the Thinking Distance for someone driving at 30 is further than the Thinking AND Stopping Distance for someone driving at 20.
Back in the 1960s when these were last measured, they have never been updated to show the current picture. One of the car TV programmes did it and found most modern cars actually stop in between half and 2/3rds of the official distance.
If your using that as a argument then we wont have any lorries on the roads as they will never stop from 20mph as fast as a car from 30mph and its reasonable to assume the same thinking time. I would also rather be hit by a car at 30 than an lorry at 20
"Key stat to note, the Thinking Distance for someone driving at 30 is further than the Thinking AND Stopping Distance for someone driving at 20."
Back in the 1960s when these were last measured, they have never been updated to show the current picture. One of the car TV programmes did it and found most modern cars actually stop in between half and 2/3rds of the official distance.
While I agree with the idea that modern tyres and ABS will be hugely better than the outdated HC numbers. In this instance that has shot your arguement in the foot. The 20mph car would have stopped easily. The thinking distance for the 30mph car is unchanged.
I would also rather be hit by a car at 30 than an lorry at 20
But if the limit is 30, the lorries will be doing 30ish. And if there's a lower limit for LGVs, everyone else will be doing that too, because they'll be stuck behind a lorry.
While I agree with the idea that modern tyres and ABS will be hugely better than the outdated HC numbers. In this instance that has shot your arguement in the foot. The 20mph car would have stopped easily. The thinking distance for the 30mph car is unchanged.
Good to see someone is awake.
I've used the statement a few times, and normally those who are against the 20mph limits miss the nuance & understanding of the statement - mentally I put them into the 52% cohort 🙂
Even if it saves 0 lives and 0 injuries and 0g of co2 it’s still totally worthwhile
Tip: if you're in favour, perhaps don't lead with the 'saving six lives a year doesn't matter' line, because that's really playing into your opponents hands.
molgrips
Free MemberTip: if you’re in favour, perhaps don’t lead with the ‘saving six lives a year doesn’t matter’ line, because that’s really playing into your opponents hands.
Never said anything of the sort but, uh, thanks for the "tip" I guess?
Meanwhile there’s been some sort of U-turn announced - not clear on whether this is distraction (announce something that doesn’t amount to a real change) or political cowardice,
Meanwhile there’s been some sort of U-turn announced
No, there's an adjustment of some roads, which was highlighted as likely from the start of the process.
I'll file 'U-turn' with 'blanket' in the poor description of reality corner.
No, there’s an adjustment of some roads, which was highlighted as likely from the start of the process.
Except the new Transport Minister has said the guidelines will be changed. Either you take this at face value, in which case, if not a U-turn it’s certainly a step backwards, or it’s an attempt to spin the process in a way that appeases the opponents. I suspect the devil will be in the detail.
I suspect that the haterz are clutching at straws. If the current guidance says X but experience has shown that Y is OK, changing the guidelines is sensible progress, not a U turn.
Perspective is everything.
I fully agree with 30 limits but it is actually quite difficult to maintain 20mph. In both our cars it feels like it’s between gears, or the car just isn’t comfortable.
So you spend time watching the speedo trying to maintain 20 mph rather than eyes on the road.
one of our cars allows you to use cruise control at 20mph, one doesn’t. It’s easier to drive with it on in the car that has it which again imo defeats the objective
They are going to Porthmadog next week so I’m awaiting the fall out about it.
I've just had a long weekend there (and driven across Wales to get there obvs).
In the context of driving through towns and villages while travelling cross country, I think the 20mph limit works fairly well - as you never feel like you're crawling along for ages.
The outskirts of towns are still often 30 anyway, and there are quite a few 40 zones (which maybe used to be NSL) - so you have to really pay attention to the signage.
Coming back to England and driving at 30 through town suddenly felt quite fast.
No, there’s an adjustment of some roads
I believe the new transport minister has said the 20mph zones should be concentrated around schools hospitals and heavily built up (residential) areas - so just like England and Scotland (?) then!
I know quite a lot of people who live in NW Wales and they generally disagreed with it and not many people actually paid attention to it.
So you spend time watching the speedo trying to maintain 20 mph rather than eyes on the road.
It’s takes less than a second to glance down at your speed and then back up, no need to watch it. Do, watch your speedo doing any other speed?
It's a limit, not a target. You should be able to drive at a speed within a couple of mph without having to constantly look at the speedometer.
In both our cars it feels like it’s between gears, or the car just isn’t comfortable.
Your car is a lot like mine, in which 20mph is absolutely fine. But 'making my car slightly more comfortable' isn't a good reason to increase speed limits and cost lives even if it is 'only' ten a year.
It’s a limit, not a target. You should be able to drive at a speed within a couple of mph without having to constantly look at the speedometer.
I dont disagree. However in Wales many 20 mph roads are quite hilly up and down. At 20mph it doesnt take much throttle input to be exceeding the 7% over tolerance rule either going up a hill or then coasting back down the otherside.
My own experience of driving in the 20mph is that you constantly have people up your chuff getting angry or overtaking where its not safe to do so
I drove from the M4 A449 junction up to Barmouth last week. There were loads of 20mph speed limits through the towns & villages en route. I didn't find it a problem at all, and the majority of them aren't for very long anyway.🤷♂️
I fully agree with 30 limits but it is actually quite difficult to maintain 20mph. In both our cars it feels like it’s between gears, or the car just isn’t comfortable.
More likely just what you are used to. Cars have been designed to run properly at any speed from *just* above creep speed to the maximum speed the car is capable of for at least the last 30 years. I can happily trundle round my village at 18mph (the speed limit) with no hesitation or "discomfort". I've even done it towing a 2 tonne trailer full of wood, uphill. (Or downhill for that matter.) And testing is done in far more arduous conditions then mooching round the valleys, two up.
(There are very few exceptions in the *production* car world. If you've had a stupid pop/bang tune added to your car and it'll no longer idle/run cleanly, you deserve all the speeding tickets you get.)
So you spend time watching the speedo trying to maintain 20 mph rather than eyes on the road.
The classic I am a poor driver defence.
I live in Wales and have absolutely no problem with the 20mph speed limit. I pop the cruise control on and enjoy the slower, and safer, pace.
I find I can happily sit at 20 with almost no throttle, or 30 with just a touch - both in third gear.
I've only spent four days driving in Wales since the change, but I thought it was VERY well observed.
It's easy to maintain a speed by listening to the engine note. It's a bit harder in an EV but then I just use the speed limiter. Pretty easy.
At 20mph it doesnt take much throttle input to be exceeding the 7% over tolerance rule either going up a hill or then coasting back down the otherside.
You’re in for a shock when you find out that isn’t a rule.
I live in Wales and have absolutely no problem with the 20mph speed limit. I pop the cruise control on and enjoy the slower, and safer, pace.
I concur. Even without cruise control (which my car doesn't have) , and on a "fairly" high performance motorbike, I just listen to the engine note and drive using that, I'm not "constantly" checking the speedo.
Also live in Wales and the only 20 I want reversed is up a bloody steep hill - I basically have to do it in 2nd gear and my poor little car is screaming at me. At 30mph I could do it in 3rd no worries, now I basically just go up it at 15mph and deal with having lots of angry people behind me.
I basically have to do it in 2nd gear and my poor little car is screaming at me
It probably isn't, really, it just sounds a little higher than you'd want.
Oh it definitely is. It's pretty much being red lined especially if I've got the bikes/other people in the car - issues with having a pathetic 68bhp and a 15% gradient. It's not a problem, I just go slower.
Really, my point was 99.9% of the 20mph limits are absolutely fine. The 0.1% is just a bit more "uncomfortable"
Holding 20 takes a bit of getting used to, but after a couple of hundred yards, it's second nature, and really quite relaxing. Plus there is untold pleasure to be had watching irate people in your mirror who are finding out that some people do stick to the limit on their favourite rat-run.
I'm all in favour of 20mph limits in residential - the road safety figures speak for themselves.
If your a pedestrian hit by a car at 30 you've a 7% chance of death, hit by a car at 20 it's 1%.....
& driving at 20 or below is only 'hard' if your not used to it. Do you remember the sink kicked up by people when rear seat belts became mandatory? This is the same.
2nd gear in a 20,
3rd in a 30.
🤷♂️
It’s pretty much being red lined especially if I’ve got the bikes/other people in the car
What on earth are you driving that is being redlined at 20mph in second?
And why does the number of people and bikes make a difference to the RPM in second?
Do you remember the sink kicked up by people when rear seat belts became mandatory?
I’m older than that. 🙂
It’s pretty much being red lined especially if I’ve got the bikes/other people in the car
Your tachometer is out. i learned to drive in a 950cc Fiesta MK2 that would do about 25mph in first, 40 in second at the red line.
2nd gear in a 20,
3rd in a 30.
what if your car has 9 gears ?
what if your car has 9 gears ?
Then you're only allowed to use the first 7 of them (unless you're in Germany, etc.) 🙂
The 20 works OK when it is well implemented. Much of mid Wales has been done well, with 20 limits only applied through the middle of villages. North Wales (Denbighshire in particular) has, IMHO, been lazily done with 20 limits just replacing the old 30 in most cases. This means long stretches of 20 outside villages where there may be the odd house, but not a lot of foot traffic, etc. I can understand why people are frustrated in that sort of scenario.
I like the change that it has made to our village - there is less traffic noise, and it's much more pleasant to walk near the main road. I do think that the guidelines need to be tweaked, though, to reduce the 'dead' areas.
I certainly haven't found any cars impossible to drive at 20.
As I expected, we are seeing a new surge in whingeing about the 20mph limits as our lovely summer visitors from across the border encounter these for the first time.
Re to the above I think Cardiff has implemented it very well, hence why very few roads are expected to change, I did see a reply on a mate's FB post from someone saying that a particular stretch of road in town should be 30mph and it's ridiculous that it's 20mph, only for my friend to point out that the stretch in question passes two schools and an old people's home and is in a built up area for the whole of it ( Cardiff Rd from Fairwater Rd in to town), I think a lot of the anti 20mph crowd have no concept of travelling any other way than by car.
For me it's mostly about how much more pleasant it is as a driver, cyclist and pedestrian, the whole city just seems a much calmer place and I have to say that as someone who's family lost a child who was hit by a car at ( we think) around 30-35mph I can only hope that fewer families have to go through the devastation that caused, which ultimately lead to more than just the one death.
In both our cars it feels like it’s between gears, or the car just isn’t comfortable.
So you spend time watching the speedo trying to maintain 20 mph rather than eyes on the road.
At 20mph it doesnt take much throttle input to be exceeding the 7% over tolerance rule either going up a hill or then coasting back down the otherside.
Seriously, perhaps you could arrange a driving lesson or two to help you upskill. Consider it, for everyone’s sake.
How do those Dutch folk manage with 18mph limits everywhere in urban areas. Do they have different cars?
They have the selfishness implant removed i think TJ
