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Really OOB - so why then when we are short hundreds of thousnds of medical staff does the pay not go up
Of course its nonsense - but its nonsense that is tory policy. I have actually heard them state this.
Not necessarily “really wealthy”, just people who don’t need to work for a living
That is "really wealthy" for most people.
Although why is being really wealthy such a bad thing in itself?
You could argue that there isn't (or you could argue otherwise) but it's highly likely that the really wealthy won't be good at representing people who aren't really wealthy, because they just don't get it. As we're seeing right now, in the other topic running on this very thread. Politicians can be told how bad thing are for the poor, but they often don't really understand - internally they'll invent justifications for the poor being poor - 'they must not be working hard enough' or 'they must be making bad decisions' otherwise why wouldn't they be well off? If you've never had been in a really difficult position* then chances are you really don't see how the system can **** you over when you most need help, and it's often not your fault. Most rich or even middle class people just don't get this, which is why most of them vote Tory - they don't see a reason why they shouldn't.
If only wealthy people became politicians, then you would only get wealthy people's interests represented (even more so than now). Which is exactly what used to happen, which is why they changed it. Even now it's not easy to basically quit or suspend your job and take off months to campaign.
*not that I'm claiming to have experienced true difficulty - I haven't - but I try to listen to those who have
If you hired a succesion of rubbish plumbers at a certain rate you’d soon conclude that you need to pay a bit more to get a decent one. MPs are no different.
I've found no correlation between competence and rate. If anything it's a reverse correlation. My conclusion is generally if I want a good job I have to do it myself.
So lets start by sacking 90% of politicians.
but he’s definitely not in the top 5% of earners – except according to the ONS you are
Being in the top x% of earners is not the same as being in the top x% of income.
Even assuming DECLARED income people (when most of the really wealth don't declare) are easily divided by bunching salary into broad swathes... i.e. top 50% or top 5%
Even if you add a load of hated bankers who previously received million pound bonus's (how many?) then they are in the same group as an MP or someone earning 80k PER HOUR if you use 5% yet most of the wealth is in the top 0.01%....
The lower/middle and upper working classes are deluded into fighting each other.
You underpay nurses/soldiers/maths teachers you end up with a shortage of good nurses/soldiers/maths teachers.
Do you actually know many teachers/police officers/nurses etc? I do, loads of them, including many who have left their jobs. Not a single one of them did so because they were underpaid. They left because they were stressed out of their minds by being overworked, taken for granted, and essentially ***** over by a system that sees them as nothing more than automatons and doesn't allow them to do their jobs. Those that are still in their jobs are there because of their frankly astonishing commitment to what they do. I really can assure you that in most public service professions, money is barely a consideration.
You underpay nurses/soldiers/maths teachers you end up with a shortage of good nurses/soldiers/maths teachers.
Do you actually know many teachers/police officers/nurses etc? I do, loads of them, including many who have left their jobs. Not a single one of them did so because they were underpaid. I really can assure you that in most public service professions, money is barely a consideration.
Ok, I concede the point. No need to increase pay for public servants.
DazH that is also a good point. I think most doctors and experienced nurses are reasonably OK with the pay. Its the other things around the job that drives folk out ie not being able to do your job properly, poor management etc
OOB - what you do not understand here is the public service ethos. I want people with that public service ethos in parliament. Not the venal ******** that make up the vast majority of them
Its something I find is very common in the right wing - the lack of understanding of the public service ethos and the "price of everything, value of nothing" attitude
many who have left their jobs. Not a single one of them did so because they were underpaid. They left because they were stressed out of their minds by being overworked,
Would they have still left if they were paid £1MM per year?
DazH that is also a good point. I think most doctors and experienced nurses are reasonably OK with the pay. Its the other things around the job that drives folk out ie not being able to do your job properly, poor management etc
I'm not following.... why would they leave a job where they can at least provide a positive benefit but have to put up with some crap for one in the Sewage pit of Westminster where the entire role is dealing with crap and get paid less and they can make no positive contribution?
No need to increase pay for public servants.
It's about basic fairness, which I would never expect you to understand. Where I work we pay junior web developers more than a senior paramedic or social worker (and the web devs continually moan about their pay!). I doubt you see that as a big problem but I do because it undermines the simple principle of value for money. As TJ says, we have a system which prioritises cost over value. As far as I'm concerned a paramedic or social worker is much more valuable to society than someone who can write (bad) javascript code.
stevextc - public service ethos / wanting to improve the lot of the fellow human.
Two things tories do not understand.,
https://fullfact.org/election-2019/labour-manifesto-2019/Looks like Labour are being pretty truthful to me.
stevextc – public service ethos / wanting to improve the lot of the fellow human.
Two things tories do not understand.,
You seem to be missing it as well, does that make you a Tory?
Are you trying to say a state school headteacher has no public service ethos or a NHS doctor?
Don't get me wrong I can see why some leave based on the barriers that are put up to prevent them improving the lot of fellow humans and all the admin crap they deal with but if that is their reason to leave then going into politics seems like the worst possible move.
You underpay nurses/soldiers/maths teachers you end up with a shortage of good nurses/soldiers/maths teachers.
Do you actually know many teachers/police officers/nurses etc? I do, loads of them, including many who have left their jobs. Not a single one of them did so because they were underpaid. I really can assure you that in most public service professions, money is barely a consideration
Ok, I concede the point. No need to increase pay for public servants.
Where I work we pay junior web developers more than a senior paramedic or social worker (and the web devs continually moan about their pay!).
Yes, and you're saying those pay levels have no impact on recruitment. ...and I've conceding that point to you.
Steve - I think we were at cross purposes. Yo asked why a teacher would want to go into government I thought.
The loony-bin Telegraph woman on QT last night. You'd think people would give up defending the Tory economic ethos of giving it to the market to deal with.
The Telegraph are always going to pile into labour. I think the more worrying thing was the genuine hostility to the Labour Manifesto from the studio audience.
Areas like Bolton are absolutely nailed on 'Labour Heartlands'. Or were. But they have been shown as also very, very Brexity. Its going to be really interesting to see what happens in these type of places. The Brexit party are standing candidates in places like this where there is a massive natural hostility to the Tories, but the electorate don't seem to impressed with labours fence-sitting either. God knows how thats going to pan out.
Steve – I think we were at cross purposes. Yo asked why a teacher would want to go into government I thought.
Nope... I'm just saying if you are the type of person who wants to help your fellow man (or woman) there are more way's to do it than being a politician.
Some people can thrive in what to me would be a toxic atmosphere .. and good on them but if the crap around being a teacher, doctor etc. is what is driving you away then Westminster or even local politics will probably make you ill - seriously ill and most likely you'll achieve NOTHING other than making yourself ill.
Areas like Bolton are absolutely nailed on ‘Labour Heartlands’. Or were. But they have been shown as also very, very Brexity.
if the working people of Bolton choose brexit over a manifesto that will change their lives then quite frankly they deserve everything they get, and I’ll go and stand next to Rayban in the ‘working class people are idiots’ camp.
2016 was annoying, but forgivable on account of the lies and general ignorance. Not this time though. Working class people have a simple choice. If they fail once again to vote for their interests then they can expect little sympathy or understanding from anyone else.
Can somebody FACT CHECK inheritance tax and confirm the Tories have never cut it - since they've been in power (other than a standard lift of the limit by £12,000 which happened under Labour too.).
Because I can find articles (RWM) that are saying the Tories cut it? And Labour would reverse it.
Anyone with any solid stuff on that?
(Not that it will impact me!)
On corruption – there is no doubt at all that the majority of MPs are corrupt crooks
Does that include the SNP representatives, just out of interest? Or the greens?
In my office there is a small group of young folk, 25 - 30 years old, working class, earn well, slightly right leaning but generally anti-brexit and on no way Tory supporters. They are not in any way politically engaged but with throw the odd word in. They are, I suspect, like a lot of people around the country who don't engage on political threads on STW.
There view?
"Labour would win this election if they didn't have that moron Corbyn in charge."
"yes, it's a good job Abbot is not anywhere near the party now"
"what, she is?!"
"haha, no chance then, Bozza will walk it"
And you know what, I think they're right.
But is Corbyn a moron? Where did they get the idea that he was?
If Labour chose someone else and they had the same policies, would they be branded a moron too?
But is Corbyn a moron?
Who's this bloke I asked her
Cooooorbyn , she replied
Not THAT puff, I said dismayed
Yes but he's no puff she cried
(He's more of a man than you'll ever be)
I thought the under 30 age group was where the Corbyn fan club was supposed to be located?
If he can't get that age group to vote for him, then the result does seem like a foregone conclusion.
A hard Brexit and 5 years of Boris it is then
Most my friends are holding their noses and voting Labour (with some Green). We hate that Magic Grandad will count it was a vote for him, but we actually have some very good local Labour MPs.
Del
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On corruption – there is no doubt at all that the majority of MPs are corrupt crooks
Does that include the SNP representatives, just out of interest? Or the greens?
There is certainly some dodgy doings amongst the SNP including the old revolving door. My guess would be on a par with the recent labour intake ie much less so than the tories. so the usual bungs of a few thousand here and there, the odd bit of fraudulent expenses. Not the massive bribes of tens of thousands or millions that old school labour and the tories were up to
Greens I think are pretty clean.
Holyrood is cleaner but still far from clean
Probably fair
But is Corbyn a moron? Where did they get the idea that he was?
Mainly from being told he's an idiot rather than looking at stuff themselves.
Repeat after me… “Corbyn and his Straight Left team are not the problem… the perception people have of them is.”
ENGAGE REALITY FILTERS
Look, Corbyn can not rely on Milne & Murray to run things and not expect to look like a puppet flapping around in the wind while the hard left millionaires pull his strings. There are lots of good brains in the Labour movement he could have used, rather than have a communist resign his party to come over and help. The policies in the manifesto should be being welcomed across society, they are only “left wing” in the way that the leading European countries are left wing… but people have to trust the leader to vote for the party… and people do not trust Corbyn or his core team.
Anyway… vote Labour… the alternative is a metaphorical kick in the balls for all of us.
In the same way, going on about workers rights, increased trade union negotiating power and workers representation on boards is probably fine in most peoples minds. In theory. Then they take one look at Len McClusky and realise that what that actually means is handing loads of power over to the likes of him. And they know exactly what he'll do with it
A man who recently gave an interview praising Derek Hatton and the Militant Tendency and going all misty-eyed over the days of flying pickets and power cuts while he'd call everyone out on strike at the drop of a hat
And McClusky called for George Galloway to be welcomed back to Labour.
going all misty-eyed over the days of flying pickets and power cuts while he’d call everyone out on strike at the drop of a hat
And let's not forget McDonald this morning on Today failing/refusing to give a straight answer about whether they'd try to legislate to allow secondary picketing. Suggesting only that Labour would defend people's right to withdraw their labour.
^^^
I mean yeah, obviously, to most of the above. Moron? His academic record speaks for itself*... Whatever, I'm sticking a labour poster in the window and hoping the manifesto gets a bit of traction. I'm in a two-way lab tory marginal with an excellent labour MP who has a several hundred majority. Vote Labour or get Boris should be sufficiently compelling to get even the most fastidious/self-indulgent to put their cross where it might actually do something.
*dropped out of north london poly. Not that that necessarily means he's thick but other data-points are available.
Suggesting only that Labour would defend people’s right to withdraw their labour.
And quite right too. Striking, or rather the threat of it, is the most powerful tool of the worker to prevent being ****** over by their employers. The reason we have zero hours contracts, pay rates at less than the living wage, and other things working people suffer from is that employers have had carte blanche to do what they like with almost nothing to stop them.
All expenses on line and not paid without receipt.
As already happens.
Mefty – are you sure they are no longer allowed to claim for buying a house on expenses?
yes
efty – are you sure they are no longer allowed to claim for buying a house on expenses?
They can still claim interest though, can't they? So they could take an interest only mortgage, pay nothing, sell property and pocket the gain in price, without having paid a penny in the interim/
Nope
Nope
Thank god they closed that loophole. About time. Might explain why Osborne etc flounced out in huff.
They did it about 10 years ago
if the working people of Bolton choose brexit over a manifesto that will change their lives then quite frankly they deserve everything they get, and I’ll go and stand next to Rayban in the ‘working class people are idiots’ camp.
DazH, I don’t think it’s just the working class people - it’s just some of them are infected with the same type of thinking as the some of the Tory middle classes. We are Britain, we are exceptional, the people fought two world wars so they know better than everyone else, we deserve better than everyone else, **** experts, swots and education. Etc etc etc
The working classes are just the most obvious case because they are the ones that suffer the most from our own deranged national psyche.