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And maybe then, for once, the Labour party will listen to the electorate
And bring back hanging, you mean?
Can anyone name a successful free market capitalist economy? You know a pure free market economy without any state intervention.
Chile is the usual poster boy for the lib'tards. Oh. Hang on a mo' ...
Eh? I don’t think we are talking along the same lines.
Manifestos are, as always, this is what the party wants to do, but it may not work out that way. At least Labour are being honest by withdrawing plans they don’t think they will end up doing. I doubt Johnson has any intention of following through with anything in particular.
I don't disagree however most voters view them as "what we will do if you vote for us", not even "what we will do if we get a majority".
I think it's safe to say that nothing coming out of Boris's mouth is the truth (I'm not eve3n sure he knows what truth is)... but I somehow expect a higher standard from Labour....
Nobody knows what the labour manifesto is. Certainly not Corbs, he struggles with what a manifesto is.
The labour manifesto is whatever Len and Seamas say it is
In exactly the same way that the Tory manifesto is whatever Dom has decreed it is, from his Bond villain Lair underneath number 10
The whole concept of democracy in this country is hardly looking in good shape on any side, is it?
Not voting tactically gives you this:
https://twitter.com/pme_politics/status/1196191858688503809?s=21
So concentrate on what matters, in your seat. Vote to stop Johnson.
There is no way on earth that this election will give Labour a majority. Zero. None. Where as…
https://twitter.com/pme_politics/status/1196191865403559936?s=21
It doesn’t matter if you want to avoid Corbyn having the power to do anything Milne&M&M&co want… it just isn’t going to happen. It doesn’t matter if your find the idea of Swinson as PM a painful joke, it just isn’t going to happen. All that matters is that Johnson is going to get his majority, unless you help stop his candidate in your seat. Hold your nose. Get your vote in. Make it count. Stop Johnson.
Just had a look at the real experts... the bookies
Conservative majority 1.4/1
No overall majority 3/1
Labour majority 26/1
So concentrate on what matters, in your seat. Vote to stop Johnson.
Will do. I will be voting for the runner up to the Tory and my part towards that 10% will really be socking it to Johnson.
The whole concept of democracy in this country is hardly looking in good shape on any side, is it?
No, as evidenced by the partisan bitching on this thread. Snide remarks, insinuation, reductio ad absurdum, all to back up your pre-existing bias. Yeah sure, you can accuse me of that too but at least I'm trying to be rational. Most people on here aren't, or at least are failing.
Just had a look at the real experts… the bookies
Conservative majority 1.4/1
No overall majority 3/1
Labour majority 26/1
Yep. Odds for no overall majority are now higher so less likely than a few weeks ago. Johnson's lies are working well, as expected.
Oooo I might put a tenner on each!
Any chance shy Tory has turned into shy Labour syndrome in the polls?
Will Corbz trounce Boris tonight? His performance on Marr suggest not.
but at least I’m trying to be rational
And there's your mistake.
Anything about UK politics look rational to you at the moment?
'Rational' went well and truly out of the window on 24th June 2016 and its been all downhill since then
The issue really STILL is that unless you believe in unicorns that both sides look like a cliff edge. Unless you want to abandon democracy then Labour can’t do anything except be a opposition unless they come out with something people enough will vote for.
really?
the only way out of this mess is a 2nd ref, & Johnson's hard brexit means there will be no money forthcoming to fulfill his obviously bogus pledges, with a decade of these bruising & divisive negotiations to endure
the only way out of this mess is a 2nd ref
As strongly remain as I am, objectively this is true.
His performance on Marr suggest not.
That interview was like someone begging for you not to vote for Labour.
Proper shouting at the TV stuff… anyway…
https://twitter.com/spittingcat/status/1196443527342895104?s=21
the only way out of this mess is a 2nd ref
Not necessarily
What about riots?
Rioting would be miles more fun than a second referendum. We do nowhere near enough rioting in this country. When compared to our continental cousins, our inability or unwillingness to take the streets and lob petrol bombs about is frankly embarrassing.
I've had enough of being reasonable. I say we torch the gaff
What about riots?
Rioting would be miles more fun than a second referendum. We do nowhere near enough rioting in this country.
You see, Binners, you have much more in common with Jeremy than you think.
Will Corbz trounce Boris tonight? His performance on Marr suggest not.
Again, the line of questioning was 4th grade. To waste all that time on are you a remainer or not. And keep drilling it - black and white. It shows no understanding of what is relevent.
Marr is terrible.
His intro is also the worse thing on telly.
Come the glorious revolution, Comrade Marr and his compatriots will learn to be suitably reverential to the glorious leader, or face the consequences
Anything about UK politics look rational to you at the moment?
Labour look entirely rational to me. Reverse a lot of Tory shit.
What doesn't look rational is the disconnect between Corbyn's critics and his actual demeanour, and their inflexibily to deal with someone they (believe that they) don't like and what is for the good of the country.
A day before the GE in 2017 the polls were still predicting a Tory majority.
Marr is terrible, but Corbyn should expect questions on Brexit. The Labour policy of 2nd ref is the best policy, Corbyn's desire to unite the country is a good thing. His unwillingness to come down on a side is also good but he needs to spell out that he'll be neutral otherwise both brexiteers and remainers will think its a ruse.
Also re debate, Corbyn is much better off the cuff and just aiming his talk out at a crowd. He has a better grip of policy and details than Boris and can talk on a wider range of subjects. Boris will undoubtedly be relying on "get Brexit done" and "Corbyn terrorist blah" - Dare Corbz call Boris out on all his dodgy stuff? Acuri, Russian report etc?
It doesn’t matter if you want to avoid Corbyn having the power to do anything Milne&M&M&co want… it just isn’t going to happen. It doesn’t matter if your find the idea of Swinson as PM a painful joke, it just isn’t going to happen. All that matters is that Johnson is going to get his majority, unless you help stop his candidate in your seat. Hold your nose. Get your vote in. Make it count. Stop Johnson.
So much this.
People need to be speaking and explaining this to family, friends, work colleagues as well. Especially in the marginals. The time for silly squabbling has well and truly passed.
Comrade Marr and his compatriots will learn to be suitably reverential to the glorious leader, or face the consequences
Comrade Marr does okay out of state telly - no?
As opposed to Jeremy who’s done very nicely out of Iranian state telly and Russia Today 😂
and just aiming his talk out at a crowd
You mean not being questioned or challenged? Yeah, he’s good then. I’m dreading the head to head. If Labour has any other leader, Johnson wouldn’t have risked having it.
The time for silly squabbling has well and truly passed.
Agreed. There are three realistic outcomes next month…
• A working Johnson majority
• An almost workable Johnson minority (with help)
• An almost workable Corbyn minority (with help)
I was hoping for the third ‘til recently. Actually, I’m still hoping for it, but a lot has to change in the next few weeks for it to be achievable. Not least people waking up to the fact that it isn’t Johnson or Corbyn, it’s Johnson or cooperation of some form across the other parties.
His unwillingness to come down on a side is also good but he needs to spell out that he’ll be neutral otherwise both brexiteers and remainers will think its a ruse.
All this “will Corbyn stay neutral” stuff is probably now irrelevant anyway (he’s now not trusted no matter what he says on Brexit). There was a PM who called a referendum a few years ago, it didn’t go his way. If the next government calls a referendum, and it has remain as an option, I’d rather Corbyn campaigned for the option he prefers, even if his cabinet have the sense to campaign otherwise. As long a M&M&M&co don’t try and sack everyone in Labour who wants to campaign for Remain, what does it matter now?
really?
the only way out of this mess is a 2nd ref,
Yes so why the unicorns from Labour?
& Johnson’s hard brexit means there will be no money forthcoming to fulfill his obviously bogus pledges, with a decade of these bruising & divisive negotiations to endure
Boris only needs to leave and blame everything on the electorate/remainers though to achieve this he is going for extra points in the piss everyone else in the EU off so much we'll never be allowed back.
The problem is even if Boris loses there will still be about 50% of the electorate totally alienated AND IMHO Corbyn will only alienate most of them further.
The problem is even if Boris wins there will still be about 50% of the electorate totally alienated AND IMHO Johnson will only alienate most of them further.
If my maths is correct, even if Johnson gets 45% of the vote, he's still circa 20 seats short of a majority.
Ok that's translating votes to sets literally, but how else can you do it?
So I suppose a tory majority depends on retaining what they have, and making significant gains in terms of seats won. We know they will lose some Scotticsh seats...thats pretty much a given, no?
A Tory majority depends on a couple of things.
1. Gaining marginal leave-voting seats from Labour in the north and Midlands
2. Not losing many remain voting seats to the Lib Dems or independents in the South
The way Joris Bohnson has blustered you'd think this election has been a done deal. It isn't. A lot of those northern and midlands constituancies have an inherent hatred of the Tories (and I really do mean hatred) and will simply never vote for them. And a lot of socially liberal, traditional Tory voters in southern seats are horrified at the parties transformation into the Brexit party.
So the polls are a very blunt instrument as nobody really has a scooby how this is going to play out in individual consituancies.
I know grandad is doing his level best to ensure a Tory majority but I still think that we're on for a hung parliament and some form of coalition. Or maybe thats wishful thinking from me as a Johnson majority really doesn't bear thinking about.
I have a horrible feeling tomorrow nights debate is going to make for extremely uncomfortable viewing. Grandad is absolultely hopeless at anything unscripted - he just hasn't got the ability to think on his feet - and when he starts realising this he then defaults to his peavish Steptoe look and gets really flusted and shouty. Not a good look. Unlike May, Joris Bohnson knows how to push his buttons to get this desired effect too.
I can't help but feel that the exclusion of the SNP and LibDem leaders from the ITV debate plays into the hands of Johnson more than Corbyn as many folk will see the LibDems in particular as irrelevant.
It also means that there is no Remain-supporting voice.
It helps both in three way battle grounds, no?
If my maths is correct
It isn’t.
A lot of those northern and midlands constituancies have an inherent hatred of the Tories (and I really do mean hatred) and will simply never vote for them.
They don’t have to, they just need to not vote Labour.
And a lot of socially liberal, traditional Tory voters in southern seats are horrified at the parties transformation into the Brexit party.
Yes, they are. But Johnson probably just needs to hammer home “it’s me or Corbyn” to neutralise the LibDem vote in those seats though. And Labour (and you could argue ITV) are helping him.
[I hope voters prove me wrong on both counts]
'Let me be (very) clear about this' - a phrase loved and much used by politicians which guarantees that what follows comprises lies, dissembling, waffle and provides anything but clarity.
I have a horrible feeling tomorrow nights debate is going to make for extremely uncomfortable viewing. Grandad is absolultely hopeless at anything unscripted – he just hasn’t got the ability to think on his feet – and when he starts realising this he then defaults to his peavish Steptoe look and gets really flusted and shouty.
Evidence is that this is the complete opposite to reality. Corbyn is much much better unscripted. Boris is the loser here - see his infamous buses model painting debacle, his recent relating to 'regular' people clip, his ad-hoc drop-ins to the floodlands.
Endless fails on the campaign trail.
He couldn't blag scraps in a chippy.
Corbyn is genuine, thoughtful and well mannered. The only thing he can't do is be a grinning shoutbox which Boris is pretty good at, and people don't always examine the contents of shoutbox.
You may think that of him but the reality is then Prince Andrew presently has a higher approval rating than Grandad.
All evidence points to your opinion of him not being one that’s widely shared.
A lot of people (like me) who are planning to vote labour (having always voted labour) aren’t doing it with much enthusiasm, for a lot of different reasons
He hasn’t got a cat in hella chance of getting a majority. He never did. So with him, clueless and totally ineffectual at the helm, the best we can hope for is damage limitation and no overall Tory majority.
That’s ambition, eh? The politics of hope 🙄
The problem is even if Boris wins there will still be about 50% of the electorate totally alienated AND IMHO Johnson will only alienate most of them further
The same would still be true if Labour won.
That’s what happens when both parties diverge away from the centre - you alienate more people and make a few people happier.
At the risk of unleashing the usual vitriol heaped on the lefties least favourite primary school teacher, she summed up where the two main parties are pretty accurately in her CBI conference speech today
‘With the Tory party in the pocket of Farage and labour stuck in the 1970’s...’
Indeed.
Grandad delivered his speech with his usual enthusiastic vim and vigour
Like a bored middle manager at a photocopier convention telling disinterested telesales staff about his companies latest developments in toner cartridges
Boris was just his usual wiffle-waffle-piffle-paffle
Tories cancelling the corporation tax cut to fund the NHS ... But but but lowering the tax rate increases the tax take?
Laugher curve.
‘With the Tory party in the pocket of Farage and labour stuck in the 1970’s…’
Ooof. What was on offer? Business rates turned off. That had been done by the Tories for quite a few years previously.
Did they read the Tory manifesto and make a cordial out of it?
Anything else? Or are you here to impart reviews on the speech cadence of all leaders?
The 1970s thing not accurate either as the Tories are stuck in the 1870s and broadband wasn't around in the 1970s.
Someone on LBC wants Corbyn to admit he will 'press the button' in the event of our 'defense'.
Doomed.
I'm convinced the electorate just want to pain themselves into oblivion.
Summary of popular polices:
Expensive shit broadband.
Poor quality health service.
Increased Crime.
Less public spending and less services.
Lower tax and Lower wages.
No darkies.
Nuclear War.
Isolation.
Homeless left to die.
Some Trees.
Cash jobs for mates rates.
No foreign aid.
7 day week.
Speed limited raised to 95.
Free Union flag.
The Fuxit Party.
We all know what the problems are. They're glaringly apparent to all. That's not the issue. The issue is who offers the solutions to them.
The Tory's under Joris Bohnson and the ERG have offered up the EU as a universal scapegoat for all these things and Brexit as some magical unicorn-based solution and pathway to the sunny uplands.
Labour should have countered this with their own strong alternative narrative. Unfortunately they're been terminally hamstrung in this, from the off, by the fact the leader of the labour party is a life-long Brexiteer, as are all those around him.
So on the most important issue of the day (on which all other policies are dependent) they are also offering up a magical unicon-based fantasy Brexit as the starting point of their solution, which then, even more laughably they may or may not campaign either for or against (though I'm guessing strongly 'for' in grandads case, no matter what version of the May/Johnson deal he comes back with)
As strong counter-narratives go, its not a great starting point, is it?
As their hopeless polling and total failure to make any impact against this far right, incompetent bunch of sociopaths is depressingly proving
Poor quality health service.
The Greens have promised to increase income tax to give more money to the NHS this morning.
I am always infuriated by this; why is the answer to the NHS problem 'more money'?
If they stopped pissing money away there would be a lot more to spend on sick people. Why does no party want to address that?
I am always infuriated by this; why is the answer to the NHS problem ‘more money’?
If they stopped pissing money away there would be a lot more to spend on sick people. Why does no party want to address that?
You think there's just a dial somewhere marked 'waste' that they can turn down, and yet no-one's thought of it?
Parties do want to address it - in fact, a significant part of the problem is that successive governments have pissed about with the NHS in the name of 'efficiency' with badly thought out ideas to grab headlines. The NHS is massive - so improving efficiency is a huge job. So you hire people to help fix it, then you get endless headlines about money wasted on pen pushers. Politicians like to push stuff through because they make vague promises in manifestos, and they end up screwing things up even more.