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Bless him. Grandad just wants this nightmare to be over so he can toddle off and spend more time with his aubergines.
Party says it wants a GE then supports GE? Whatever next!
If a GE is called and Parliament is dissolved then doesn't all current legislation in the process of being debated die with it?
Including the current Withdrawal Agreement Bill in limbo?
For the first time in 100 years, and perhaps for the last time the Libdems could win.
Give over. I'm a LibDem supporter and I don't believe that.
Oh FFS can this get any more ridiculous?
What is a GE going to give prove? Why have the opposition parties agreed to it?
I'm at a complete loss. Did no-one listen to Tony Blair yesterday or is this everyone actively ignoring him?
This will be a right cluster **** of an election, would be interesting to see if all the remainers from the original referendum vote lib dems and any leavers that have changed their minds also do, Libdems could muster 50% of the vote but still fail to win the election due to how our voting systems work, i honestly believe that unfortunately moptop johnson will win and the country will be screwed beyond belief when the brexit deal gets agreed, a real case of careful what you wish for...
I’m a LibDem supporter and I don’t believe that.
Not sure what relevance the fact you're a libdem supporter has? Do you change your estimate of a party's seat Share according to whether you support them or not?
They're neck and neck with Labour in the Polls they have a USP that appeals to 50pc of voters and the Leave vote is split two ways.
Looks good to me.
What is a GE going to give prove?
Hopefully a reduction in Tory seats.
Why have the opposition parties agreed to it?
Labour couldn't hold off forever, a united opposition of all partys could of probably held Johnson in ineffective limbo for a while longer, but LD and SNP saying they were going to give Johnson a way to an election meant that realistically Labour couldn't hold out any more.
I dread to think what kind of campaign we're going to see from the Tory's with Cummings in charge.
Its a given that they're going to employ exactly the same shennanigans as we saw in the referendum campaign. lies, lies, lies and more lies, flag-waving anti-EU xenophobia, dodgy funding, Cambridge Analytica style data abuse and Russian bots
This is going to be really really gutter level stuff
50% for the LDs is not going to happen. If they hit the c20% they have in the polls they will be doing well. The LDs with the SNP may well be kingmakers in the next minority govt but no more.
A productive avenue for Cummings will be to maximise fighting over the same ground for opposition parties - if LDs and Labour are taking chunks out of each other then the Tories will benefit
Not sure what relevance the fact you’re a libdem supporter has?
My comment is made from the point of view of a supporter, not someone out to rubbish them.
They’re neck and neck with Labour in the Polls they have a USP that appeals to 50pc of voters and the Leave vote is split two ways.
I don't think the polls will translate into absolute votes.
I also think some of their 'policies' will cancel out some of that 50pc.
I dread to think what kind of campaign we’re going to see from the Tory’s with Cummings in charge.
“We” aren’t going to see the important parts ‘till after the election, if at all. Targeted online advertising full of conflicting “facts” that wouldn’t survive any kind of open scrutiny will be just as important as it was in 2016 (and when undermining May and during Johnson’s successful leadership campaign).
Oh, and there is Johnson’s best and cheapest weapon… people who claim to oppose him but will spend the next few months banging on about “Swindleson” or “Marxists”, “Centrists” or “Racists”. Time to focus on kicking out Conservative Brexit MPs.
Yep. I am a remainer but I won't be voting Lib Dem.
They’re neck and neck with Labour in the Polls.
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1189149239424749568?s=20
Nothing is certain beyond 10 mins but they're not neck and neck.
You Gov for Apr 2017.
48 Con
24 Lab
12 Libs
7 Ukip
9 Other
I wouldn't put too much emphasis on polling until today's news plays through. Even then it hey are all over the place
I am a remainer but I won’t be voting Lib Dem.
Not a very committed remainer and that's the danger. I fear there are vast number of remainders who will only vote for leave or for 50/50 parties.
In contrast the leavers get out and vote.
Anyway we shall see, and I'll be voting libdem this time.
they’re not neck and neck.
Thanks for the correction, I should have said "neck and neck on 20pc last time I looked".
Gosh, a choice of who to vote for, with 3 and a bit years of experience of unfulfilled promises, self appreciation and selfishness as a doctrine to choose from. Does it matter who you vote for, after all, its all lies... right?
Does it matter who you vote for, after all, its all lies… right?
It's probably all lies but we can deduce what parties will do based on their own self interest:
Tories/BP have nailed their flag to Brexit. If you want Brexit vote for one of them.
Lib dems are committed to Remain now. If you want remain they're the flag to rally around.
Yes, I'm sure if they thought there were more votes in another course of action they take that but so what? We know they're committed now, they've alienated one set of voters they can't change sides and lose the other half. Neither side can go back until long after Brexit has happened.
Lib dems
I'm sure they'll do well out of this. I heard Corbyn on the radio earlier actively supporting a referendum but that would mean extending Brexit even further I'm guessing. Unless we stay in of course.
I’m sure they’ll do well out of this.
Although from any realistic viewpoint all the Libdems are offering is a referendum as well.
What is a GE going to give prove?
Potentially nothing but it was bad enough with a minority government, once the majority dropped to -43 an immediate election is inevitable.
The only alternative is that the opposition parties could have formed a temporary government, revoked and called an election. ....but they didn't.
If we want a government that survives a 5 year term then a lot of us have to vote for the same party to provide a majority and in recent elections we've stopped doing that.
I'm hoping remainers will rally round the Libdems and change everything and we'll have a single party with a good enough majority to govern for the first time since Blair's last victory. It could easily end in another government with no workable majority, but an election isn't optional unless you think the UK doesn't need a functioning government.
Although from any realistic viewpoint all the Libdems are offering is a referendum as well.
The Libdems are offering revoke.
What you're saying is them might lose and fail to deliver revoke. That's true of all the parties. The difference is the Lib dems can't move from revoke to leave in a post election deal. They're committed. Plus they gain no advantage from Brexit happening. Yes, they might end up supporting a second vote as a worst case scenario, in which case their worse case scenario is better or equal to every other parties best case scenario!
Plus the two main parties both gain if Brexit happens because it neutralized the Libdems and BP. The Tory's are openly in favour of Leave, Labour can't afford to be so openly in favour of leave but they imposed no sanctions on MPs who voted to Leave a couple of days ago. Labour *could* politically back leave because they're coming from a 50/50 starting point and they have every reason to do so. The Tories are already backing leave.
my guess?
slim conservative majority.
farage still won't get a seat.
Rees-Mogg looses his seat.
my MP (Cox) could do a giant steaming shit in the town square every day from now to election day and he'd still get a thumping majority.
labour collapse. corbyn won't go.
lib dem gains. not enough to be official opposition.
no 2nd referendum, shit WA scrapes through. 5 more years of brexit bickering about trade deals.
The Libdems are offering revoke.
Only in the parallel universe where they win the election.
Not a very committed remainer and that’s the danger.
I am a remainer who just thinks the Lib Dems are shit and I wouldn't want them in power. Of course they will never be in power anyway so voting Lib Dem is a waste of anybodies time.
Added to the fact I live in a seat with a 66% winning Tory who has been there for 20+ years and the Leave vote was in the 60+%.
Jambo -
The last sentence for sure........
FFS @dazh & @dissonance & co.
All parties need to present their policies.
The only party likely to form a majority government are the Tories.
The retort “their polices are fantasies because they can’t form a majority government” would also apply to Green, PC, Brexit and SNP parties. So move on from it. Oh, and at this election, probably also applies to Labour.
Shut the f up about why you currently dislike the LibDems and get convincing people to vote to unseat Tories using tactical voting.
What you’re saying is them might lose and fail to deliver revoke
I prefer not to deal with yellow unicorns. So what is their realistic position?
Shut the f up about why you currently dislike the LibDems and get convincing people to vote to unseat Tories using tactical voting.
ermm it doesnt work that way. If I am going to vote tactically I want to know how their policies will translate in reality. So lets get past the libdem unicorn and find out what they will offer. The problem is given Swinsons hatred of Labour I would have concerns she would choose to do some deal with the tories that would screw us over.
All policy platforms are what that party would do if they could implement their policies without having to reach a compromise with other parties. They are what they will push to happen ideally. Of course they will have to shift in a hung parliament. What would Labour do if they needed SNP support to form a government? The parties state their positions, and have to accept that they will face difficult compromises if they are involved in government, or supporting a government, after a hung result. This is true for all the parties.
tactical voting
hold your nose and vote for the party most likely to defeat Mr Johnson
hold your nose and vote for the party most likely to defeat Mr Johnson
Where, in this case, “defeat” really means denying him a majority. He’s going to have the most MPs at Xmas… short of a seasonal miracle. It’s all about keeping as many seats out of his hands as possible.
hold your nose and vote for the party most likely to defeat Mr Johnson
brexit party then?
Only in the parallel universe where they win the election.
Yep, more likely they enable a slim Tory majority and we end up further away from Remain than we are now.
I won't vote Tory or Labour and now I don't agree with the libdems...
All parties need to present their policies.
We've suffered two years of you and the rest of the 'why don't the labour party just stop brexit' brigade whining on about red unicorns. If the libdems were serious about stopping brexit they would align their policy with the other opposition parties and work with them. But no, they want to go one better and offer a yellow unicorn policy, not because it increases the chances of stopping brexit (it does the direct opposite), but because they hope it will win them votes. It's not 'presenting their policies' it's pure political opportunism and cynical electioneering.
The lib dems are not a serious party who want to be in government to change anything, and they're not a campaigning party like the greens, they're just in it for themselves. They are completely amoral empty vessels who will do anything to get a whiff of power and importance. They can go **** themselves quite frankly.
• copy
• replace all occurrences of ‘LibDem’ with ‘Labour’
• paste
I just hope Labour can convince enough people to support them at this election. I’ll be doing all I can to make the reasonable case for them, and hope I can balance out your attempts to turn people away for voting Labour with your “burn the unbelievers” approach to politics.
All policy platforms are what that party would do if they could implement their policies without having to reach a compromise with other parties
The flaw here is we have been here before with the Libdems. So rather than dealing with yellow unicorns I would like some simple statements about their proposed strategies. We have been told they will refuse to play with others. What does that translate to in reality?
We need the SNP and LibDems to take seats off of Johnson in areas where Labour rarely do well (and have no chance of winning currently). Thrashing around and slagging off and swearing about everyone outside your preferred little bubble is exactly what Johnson needs to get his majority… if you’re in a seat where the choice is between LibDems and Labour, then crack on worrying about them. Otherwise, this election is going be all about taking out Johnson’s support in Parliament one seat at a time… tactical voting or Johnson as PM for 10 years… choose a path.
We have been told they will refuse to play with others. What does that translate to in reality?
[tj]a complete volte-face at the first sniff of a ministerial car?[/tj]
Thrashing around and slagging off and swearing about everyone outside your preferred little bubble is exactly what Johnson needs to get his majority
You might want to point that out to the libdems, did you listen yesterday? Far more time dedicated to attacking Corbyn than Johnson. Or, indeed to the likes of Binners.
get convincing people to vote to unseat Tories using tactical voting.
It really is this. This election is just damage limitation in my mind. There's such a risk that things could get very very worse.
Far more time dedicated to attacking Corbyn than Johnson
Yes, and the shadow chancellor (who I normally rate) seems to be spending all his time attacking the LibDems… I’m not claiming this missplaced energy is unique to this forum. In fact it comes from politicians at the top, and is then repeated by their tribal supporters. And it’s rife in all the opposition parties, and amongst their supporters. For this election, we either break out of this and work to defeat Conservative MPs, seat by seat, or accept a Johnson majority and spend five years arguing over who’s fault it is.
Does the birth of this thread now mean the Brexit thread is in stasis?
Added to the fact I live in a seat with a 66% winning Tory who has been there for 20+ years and the Leave vote was in the 60+%.
So there's literally no risk or downside to you voting for the only Remain party and you still won't do it. I bet you voted for a leave party in the last election too. At least then you had the fig leaf that there wasn't a national remain party.
This is exactly why the EU have recently accepted we're leaving. For a long while they thought a bit of delay and the opposition would stop Brexit. In the last couple of months they've accepted as fact that there's no plan to stop Brexit and no desire stop Brexit. Hence this last time they were considering giving a short extension to force Parliament to accept the deal and get it done. We're just a nation of whiners who are glad to have something to complain about. There's a risk we're going to prove it in the coming election. 🙁
There are very few Libdem/Labour marginals so LibDem attacks on Corbyn/Labour are tactically astute way to reassure soft Tory voters that its safe to vote for them. But...in a system for a two party election, the presence of smaller parties really muddies the outcome. Your vote for the wrong progressive party might allow the non-progressive party in (or the other way round).
I hope they let 16+17 yearolds vote though.
Election is a tragic idea right now. The next 5 years of Government decided on Brexit alone. What a shitshow.
I'm amazed Labour seem so keen, with JC polling worse than Michael Foot and no apparent election strategy......
Election Bill is now amendable. Let's see what opposition parties try lo to sneak in. Votes for 16-17yo, votes for EU residents!
I don't give a flying **** what the other LibDem policies are they're the only chance in my constituency of ousting the current Tory MP (it's a slim 2.5k majority in a previously LibDem town) and avoiding Brexit.
I'd urge any vaguely sensible person to vote for whoever has most chance of opposing the Tories in their locale (short of voting Brexit Party Ltd of course). To say "but but they're not giving me exactly what I want!" is missing the point as if you're not in the 0.1% the Tories certainly arent and Brexit will do no-one any good.
Either we all stop bitching and blaming and do all we can to defeat the Tories, or Johnson gets in by default.
Whether Brexit happens or not, I want a government that will start to address the huge social problems we have ignored since 2015
Otherwise, this election is going be all about taking out Johnson’s support in Parliament one seat at a time… tactical voting or Johnson as PM for 10 years… choose a path.
From the words and actions of Swinson et al over the past couple of months it's pretty nailed on that the lib dems will only consider allying themselves with the tories. If Johnson has most seats, they'll be crawling round on their knees looking for a few scraps. If Corbyn wins, they'll trot out the usual 'we can work with labour but not <insert leader's name here>'. This being the case I see little difference between a lib dem MP and a tory one. They had their chance to cooperate with labour and the other parties, and they chose to go their own way, as a result I'm sticking to my view that they can go **** themselves.
Corbyn looks like he's actually woke up from his usually stupefying torpor. I haven't seen him this animated since he lost the last election. Apart from when he does his weekly, 10 second, PMQ's shouty Youtube clip, he's normally catatonic.
If he actually managed to look this animated, instead of his usual bored health and safety inspector routine, the labour party might be actually polling higher in the first place.
For me its a choice between a reputable liar, an indecisive sleepy communist or Jo Swinson.
I see little difference between a lib dem MP and a tory one.
Liar.
go **** themselves
Grow up.
People like you will turn voters away from Labour, and Johnson will laugh all the way to his Xmas as PM.
Please calm down guys - throwing around ad hominems helps no-one.
From what I can see, the government has lost the vote to control the terms of the - if any - forthcoming GE. The rest is up to parliament to decide.
So there’s literally no risk or downside to you voting for the only Remain party and you still won’t do it. I bet you voted for a leave party in the last election too. At least then you had the fig leaf that there wasn’t a national remain party.
I will vote Green just as I always do as a Green party member thanks. They get about as many votes as Lib Dems where I live so will be helping to take a few of that 66% that the tory MP will no doubt be getting. As I said, I won't vote Lib Dem because they are shit - shit policies and a shitty leader.
Looks like Boris could yet resort to type and pull it if certain amendments are tabled.
It really is, like Trump, government by petulant toddler, isn't it?
Either we all stop bitching and blaming and do all we can to defeat the Tories, or Johnson gets in by default.
Whether Brexit happens or not, I want a government that will start to address the huge social problems we have ignored since 2015
I said God Damn!
Come together beat the Tories. Forget personality focus on the policy. Personality is where we got Boz from.
It really is, like Trump, government by petulant toddler, isn’t it?
The proposed amendments would almost certainly badly damage the tories. So not unexpected he wouldnt want to risk it as its already enough of a gamble.
Looks like Boris could yet resort to type and pull it if certain amendments are tabled.
That would be quite funny.....
Looks like Boris could yet resort to type and pull it if certain amendments are tabled.
Can't blame him entirely if the opposition parties try to tack on enfranchisement of 16/17-year-olds as an amendment. Perhaps they could also table an amendment which forces him to wear a dunces cap and a sign saying 'I am a lying ****' throughout the campaign?
I support enfranchisement, but this is a bit of an ambush.
martinhutch
Member
I support enfranchisement, but this is a bit of an ambush.
Not from the SNP point of view, they've consistently supported widening voting rights for a long time now
https://twitter.com/joepike/status/1189210635374092288
wacca wacca wacca
(actually even demob bercow isnt gonna pick this amendment)
Not from the SNP point of view, they’ve consistently supported widening voting rights for a long time now
I meant tacking it onto a bill which has a different purpose. TBH, it is the sort of major electoral change which requires proper debate and its own legislation. Then they can disenfranchise anyone over the age of 70, or who reads the Daily Mail at the same time.
EU citizens that weve just forced to get settled status makes more sense
especially as they are already on electoral roll & we let commomwealth citizens with similar settled status vote already
still wont happen tho
Of course they will never be in power anyway so voting Lib Dem is a waste of anybodies time.
No it isn't. Of course they won't win an overall majority but if there is a chance of replacing a Con MP with an LD that reduces the Con majority. My constituency is a marginal Con/LD, it has swung both ways in recent GEs. Currently Con but my feeling is there's a good chance it can swing back to LD. So it's not a wasted vote..
Election is a tragic idea right now. The next 5 years of Government decided on Brexit alone. What a shitshow.
I agree, Brexit shouldn't be decided by GE - especially as it's essentially a cross-party issue anyway. But, we may be stuck with it. So if you don't want Brexit and you think it's the biggest issue facing the country, then stuff all your normal voting practices and vote tactically.
I meant tacking it onto a bill which has a different purpose.
If the SNP can get something out of this they’ve been pushing for years, then why shouldn’t they?
@slowoldman, we need people like you voting LibDem. I’ll be thanking you if you get the result you want there. Good luck. Conversely a vote for LibDems here (instead of Labour) could mean we keep our Con of an MP. Time for cool heads and a seat by seat approach to stopping Johnson getting his majority.
If the SNP can get something out of this they’ve been pushing for years, then why shouldn’t they?
Worth a punt, maybe, but given that they professed to actually want an election, they shouldn't get too surprised or annoyed if Boris pulls the bill in response.
but if there is a chance of replacing a Con MP with an LD that reduces the Con majority. My constituency is a marginal Con/LD, it has swung both ways in recent GEs. Currently Con but my feeling is there’s a good chance it can swing back to LD. So it’s not a wasted vote..
And likewise, if there is the chance of getting a Labour MP over the line against a Tory, LD voters should be holding their noses and voting Labour if they are serious about stopping a hard(er) Brexit. Even if the Labour MP previously had a reasonable majority, as they could actually be hanging on for grim life come polling day.
The name of the game is preventing Tory MPs getting elected. In the relatively small number of constituencies which could pivot, both Labour and LibDem voters need to look critically at whether voting for their 'team' is going to allow a Tory to get in.
If they can stop the Brexit legislation, but have to wait ‘till 2020 for an election, it’s still job done for the SNP.
@kelvin - I've been a LibDem supporter most of my voting life (which is quite long now) so I'm the one to blame for the student grant firago. I'm lucky to be in a constituency where there is a good chance of an LD MP. If it was neck and neck between LAB and Con I would undoubtedly vote LAB, even given the uncertainty of their Brexit approach. Again, it potentially reduces the Con majority, which has to be the principle aim of anyone still wishing to halt Brexit. Or indeed anyone with any principles!
, we need people like you voting LibDem. I’ll be thanking you if you get the result you want there. Good luck. Conversely a vote for LibDems here (instead of Labour) could mean we keep our Con of an MP. Time for cool heads and a seat by seat approach to stopping Johnson getting his majority.
yep Id rather vote lib dem than labour but Tory majority went from 9000 to 1500 at last GE so really would have to go Labour
Be quite happy with a lab/lib coalition but fully aware that Johnson will probably win.
We're in the Skipton and Ripon constituency - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skipton_and_Ripon_(UK_Parliament_constituency) if the current MP lost then I'd be amazed as at the last election he'd more than twice the number of votes of the next most popular candidate.
People like you will turn voters away from Labour
Calm down man! I think you overestimate my influence on the result. The only power I have is my vote, and that's going to labour and no one here will be surprised about that.
As for the lib dems, there was a time not too long ago I was willing to give them the time of day. Then Swinson came along and blew all that away with her preening look-at-me-I'm-so-important politicking and barely disguised rimming of the tory backside. So sorry, they're getting no favours from me. I'd repeat my sentiments but I don't want to wind you up any further. Please try to remember that all of us have very little impact on this, so it's not worth losing your temper over. Whatever the result, life will go on.
Looks like Boris could yet resort to type and pull it if certain amendments are tabled.
Lets hope he does. The next move will be a VONC and an election at a time convenient for the opposition parties with EU citizens and 16/17 olds included. Boris is about to get a harsh lesson in parliamentary arithmetic and pissing off the DUP.
certain amendments havent been selected
Johnson will get what he wants
Johnson will get what he wants
I fear we may have to get used to that.
A December election is only in the interests of his party.
I will vote Green just as I always do as a Green party member thanks.
Then you're not a remainer, or not in any meaningful way. The greens are so extreme in their Euro-skepticism that Farage voted for them when he decided the Tories weren't Brexity enough for him.
Let's take a look at their current EU policy (I know you're familiar with it, but others might not be):
https://policy.greenparty.org.uk/eu.html
EU301 The present EU structures are fundamentally flawed.
EU310 The Green Party believes that the excessive influence of the Commission and its associated bodies compared to the Council and Parliament is both undemocratic and unaccountable.
The CJEU should be given a statute which defines and limits its powers
The CJEU should no longer be allowed to promote European integration in its judgements
EU401 The single market may be summarised as a massive restructuring of capital around a small number of large corporations and financial institutions
Not sure it's going to help where I am but I plan to vote for whomever is most likely to remove the career Tory yes man we currently have.