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https://twitter.com/iammatthoughton/status/1192184343071993856?s=09
If you need evidence the Tories are completely bonkers and liars. Here it is.
Haha squeaky bum time for John Redwood
I'm going to laugh my cock off if the Lib Dems end up becoming king makers again.
aybanwomble
Member
Don’t bother holding Scandinavia up as an alternative model, as I’ll be proved wrong
Because they aren't capital "S" socialist by Corbyns standards and haven't been since the reforms well over 20 years ago. They are neoliberal states with a somewhat strong welfare model, that's it.
No I am looking for evidence of his, as you claimed, authoritarianism. You have failed to actually produce anything beyond yet more vague smears. Care to try again with some actual clear evidence?
The way the anti-semitism row was dealt with, the way dissenters within the ranks were dealt with, the constant pandering to authoritarian states, and the people he keeps company? How much more evidence do you need? Or can you only make a decision, in your opinion, based on a bullshit manifesto? Since when did ideologues ever stick to the gentrified version of their world view used to sell themselves to the masses? Do you not remember "vote leave" telling us that no deal or hard brexit would never happen? Is it only the right that can lie or obfuscate?
You wouldn't question someone accusing Nick Griffin or Tommy Robinson of being authoritarian fascists because of the people that they keep as company, would you?
Is he the Tory Diane Abbott? Shouldn't be let near an interview?
Errmmm - no - they are social democratic - surprisingly enough like Corbyns labour which follows the nordic / European social democratic tradition very closely Most of Scandinavia remains at least as far to the left as Corbyn. Most of Scandinavia does not follow unfettered neoliberalism either. Where do you think the taking money out of private companies to buy shares to give to workers came from?
Most of Scandinavia has much higher taxation than the UK, Much higher benefit rates, much more worker protection, much higher environmental standards and much more egalitarian societies
Woking is a remain constituency, looking good for the libdems.
http://democraticdashboard.com/constituency/wokingham
Wokingham, constituency voting intention:
CON: 42% (-15)
LDEM: 38% (+22)
LAB: 12% (-13)
BREX: 5% (+5)
GRN: 3% (+1)
Rayban - evidence of authoritarianism? Just a little tiny bit? Some statement. policy, something?
No, I don't need to produce a policity statement - because people like Corbyn and Farage aren't that ****ing stupid. The evidence is there in how he has dealt with internal dissent and who he keeps as company, that is all you need.
.....and on Sweden/Scandanavia
Second, as evidence of the lack of government interference in business affairs, there is the fact that none of these countries have minimum wage laws.
LOL - so socialist TJ. So Corbyn.
Well corbyn is an authoritarian, left wing yes but also authoritarian.
There's nothing Libertarian about his views, it's his way or the highway.
That democratic dashboard - it does not seem to be giving predictions in my area or am I missing something? Where are the predictions?
I agree Rayban - both Scandinavia and Corbyn are working in the european SOCIAL DEMOCRATIC tradition. None of them are true socialists
However is a simple fact that Scandenavia have higher taxes than the UK and than corbyn is wanting, higher benefit rates, are more egalitarian, keep most of their essential industry and services under democratic control
I don't think you actually understand the difference between social democracy and socialism
Authoritarian?
yes its really Authoritarian to keep people who work against you in senior positions, to allow debate, to allow the membership to make policy
so go on - one tiny example of Corbyn being authoritarian?
Jeepers you do not half talk some pish and boy are you so right wing compared to where you think you are
No, I don’t need to produce a policity statement – because people like Corbyn and Farage aren’t that **** stupid
Ah yes of course the lack of evidence is evidence itself. A line well liked by authoritarian types. Sure you arent projecting your own failings onto others?
Farage, of course, has clearly demonstrated his authoritarian leanings by setting up his company, sorry, party in a way which gives him total control. Whereas Corbyn has done what exactly?
How has he dealt with internal dissent? How many people has he forced out like Johnson has?
See how easy it is to provide evidence in those cases it is true?
If the way a party leader leads his MPs is evidence of their political stance, everything is a totalitarian dictatorship. That's how political parties work.
Like when Boris withdrew the whip from people who disagreed with him. Doesn't translate outside the party though. It's not like he's gonna hunt down voters who didn't vote for hi and kick them out of the country...
Jeepers you do not half talk some pish and boy are you so right wing compared to where you think you are
Classic CPB/Momentum tactic, accuse all those criticizing Corbyn or those holding New Labour positions as being right wing stooges.
so go on – one tiny example of Corbyn being authoritarian?
I've given them.
However is a simple fact that Scandenavia have higher taxes than the UK and than corbyn is wanting, higher benefit rates, are more egalitarian, keep most of their essential industry and services under democratic control
I don’t think you actually understand the difference between social democracy and socialism
* "are more egalitarian" - but no minimum wage?
* "keep most of their essential industry and services under democratic control" - but yet have a more heavily privatized healthcare system than the UK, privatized rail industry, privatized education using school vouchers (proper conservative policy that is), privatised welfare system.....
It's you who doesn't understand the Swedish model, because it is NOTHING like what Corbyn is offering.
Here's a list of the various companies they have privatized, including many of strategic national importance.
ASEA-ATOM (1981) - sold to Asea
Luxor AB (1984)
SSAB (1986–1994)
UV Shipping (1988)
1990s
AssiDomän
Celsius
Cementa
Enator
Företagskapital
Industrikredit AB
Lantbrukskredit AB
Nordbanken (partial)
OKPetroleum
Pharmacia
PharmaciaUpjohn
SAKAB
SAQ Kontrol
SBL Vaccin
SEMKO
SSAB (wholly privatised in 1994)
Stadshypotek AB
Svalöf
Svensk Fastighetsvärdering
Svenska Statens Språkresor AB
Swedish Real Estate Valuation Corp
VPC AB
2000s
Celsius AB
Grängesbergs Gruvor
Kurortsverksamhet
Nordbanken
OMX - stock exchange - shares sold to Borse Dubai for 2.1 billion SEK.[13]
SAKAB
SGAB
Svenska Lagerhus
Svenska
Vin & Sprit - sold to Pernod Ricard for 5.626 billion euro[14]
2010s
Nordea (19.5% owned by Swedish government)[15]
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/feb/05/sweden-private-profit-improves-services
Ah yes of course the lack of evidence is evidence itself. A line well liked by authoritarian types. Sure you arent projecting your own failings onto others?
Farage, of course, has clearly demonstrated his authoritarian leanings by setting up his company, sorry, party in a way which gives him total control. Whereas Corbyn has done what exactly?
How has he dealt with internal dissent? How many people has he forced out like Johnson has?See how easy it is to provide evidence in those cases it is true?
If Corbyn wasn't a hard left authoritarian, he wouldn't keep close advisers who were.
but yet have a more heavily privatized healthcare system than the UK, privatized rail industry, privatized education using school vouchers (proper conservative policy that is), privatsied welfare system…..
All of which are pretty new in the grand scheme of things. So lets give them a few years to see how they impact the system.
Remember the tories great sell of the public housing on the cheap gave a short term impression of success but now home ownership is dropping and costs have skyrocketed.
All of which are pretty new in the grand scheme of things. So lets give them a few years to see how they impact the system.
Remember the tories great sell of the public housing on the cheap gave a short term impression of success but now home ownership is dropping and costs have skyrocketed.
They started doing all of these things decades ago, I might add - because the original model wasn't working.
Here’s a list of the various companies they have privatized,
But they still have some state owned companies? It's almost as if some kind of balance between state and private enterprise is needed?! I wonder who'd be proposing that?
I believe you NEED a fair amount of private enterprise. But I don't think anyone should profit from essential services. Which would mean renationalising a lot, but it's not full socialism.
You have not given a single example of Corbyn being authoritarian. You have claimned he is but as usual when you are pushed to provide evidence for your assertions you are completely unable to do so
I am no Corbyn fan nor and I any type of socialist. I am a liberal Green which oddly enough is a rather more authoritarian position than Democratic socialism Its just I hate people making up stuff to reinforce your position and I am afraid you really have outed yourself as right wing with your attitudes.
so go on - a tiny little bit of evidence of Corbyn being authoritarian? Just a tiny bit? You know silencing dissenters, chucking people out of the party etc etc
How about naming a single labour policy ( a real one) that is not firmly inthe european social democratic tradition -
so one tiny bit of evidence or one tiny little policy
If the way a party leader leads his MPs is evidence of their political stance, everything is a totalitarian dictatorship. That’s how political parties work.
Like when Boris withdrew the whip from people who disagreed with him. Doesn’t translate outside the party though. It’s not like he’s gonna hunt down voters who didn’t vote for hi and kick them out of the country…
Wasn't this the chap that prorogued parliament and who was accused of being an enti-democratic demagogue?
I am no Corbyn fan nor and I any type of socialist. Its just I hate people making up stuff to reinforce your position adn I am afraid you really have outed yourself as right wing with yur attitudes.
so go on – a tiny little bit of evidence of Corbyn being authoritarian? Just a tiny bit? You know silencing dissenters, chucking people out of the party etc etc
Like you do by constantly comparing Corbyn to a Swedish model that you have no understanding of?
so go on – a tiny little bit of evidence of Corbyn being authoritarian? Just a tiny bit? You know silencing dissenters, chucking people out of the party etc
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/momentums-purge-of-the-blairites-dddjvrr96
How about naming a single labour policy ( a real one) that is not firmly inthe european social democratic tradition –
Firstly, there is no one "european social democratic tradition" and second of all - that era failed and died in the 80s/90s.
tjagain
Member
Errmmm – no – they are social democratic – surprisingly enough like Corbyns labour which follows the nordic / European social democratic tradition very closely Most of Scandinavia remains at least as far to the left as Corbyn. Most of Scandinavia does not follow unfettered neoliberalism either. Where do you think the taking money out of private companies to buy shares to give to workers came from?
Most of Scandinavia has much higher taxation than the UK, Much higher benefit rates, much more worker protection, much higher environmental standards and much more egalitarian societies
Friend of mine who is Finnish has just returned to the UK after having moved the family to Finland, with the intention of it being a permanent move. The main reason they didn't stay was that taxation was so high that they had far less money than over here and they consequently were having to work much harder to makes end meet. Hardly some sort of socialist paradise, eh?
I should add that she's a social worker, so not one of your greedy capitalists.
JP
How much more evidence do you need?
Sigh. You dont get this providing evidence thing do you?
Lets just take your claim about how those dissenters were "dealt with". You mean by not having the whip withdrawn or similar?
Speaking of evidence. Have you looked at what else Dorfman has written? Do you feel someone who believes that apparently greedy businesses cant exploit workers because they will switch to another business is going to be a reliable source?
Its good to see on a day where Johnson has been outright lying we have the normal suspects just throwing shit around in the hope some sticks.
Rayban - where did I compare Corbyn to Sweden. cite. I compared his policies to the nordic social democratic tradition.
so go on – one tiny example of Corbyn being authoritarian?
He won't step down from leader for the good of the country on the basis that he thinks he's the best, and make way for a more moderate left /Liberal leader, despite it damaging the Labour Party.
That's authoritarian.
Rayban – where did I compare Corbyn to Sweden. cite. I compared his policies to the nordic social democratic tradition.
And what is this homogenous nordic social democratic tradition TJ? Because it never existed - and definitely doesn't exist anymore. Generally though, what has been referred to as a general Nordic model has always included a commitment to free markets and free trade.
That isn't Corbyns vision.
Remember the Danish PM Lars Rasmussen once stated that ""I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism. Therefore, I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy".
Hardly some sort of socialist paradise, eh?
No - its a social democratic policy because those high taxes are used to reduce poverty and inequality.
Rayban - I know you didn't understand it at all. You really should learn a bit about politics if you are going to spout onabout it.
I once again ask you - name a single policy of labour that is not firmly in the nordic / european social democratic tradition?
I did a while ago make a decision not to engage with you. I should have kept to it. A rightwinger whos political understanding is so poor he thinks he is left wing and whos understanding is so poor its simply not worth debating with
There have been high levels of pish talked on politics threads on here but you are right up there with THM
And again rayban - social democracy is not socialism Basic politics. the Nordic countries are not socialist same as Corbyn is not
with that I leave you to it. Its pointless
No – its a social democratic policy because those high taxes are used to reduce poverty and inequality.
Rayban – I know you didn’t understand it at all. You really should learn a bit about politics if you are going to spout onabout it.
We use taxes to redistribute wealth and reduce inequality as well.
Just because they use somewhat higher taxation, doesn't mean that they are socialist or social democratic in Corbyns sense. They aren't and weren't even before the 1990s. Is your understanding of the nordic model predicated on a defined cut off point in terms of the redistributive effects of taxation?
That's is ****ing funny.
And again rayban – social democracy is not socialism Basic politics. the Nordic countries are not socialist same as Corbyn is not
Again, you aren't understanding this properly - they aren't even Corbyn.
I gotta say I agree with rayban on this, if corbyn wasn't authoritarian he'd have stepped aside to allow a more moderate, less contraversial leader to replace himself for the good of the labour party and ultimately the good of the people he represents.
That’s authoritarian.
So because he doesnt agree with your beliefs about who should be the Labour party leader he is authoritarian?
Its best not to use Humpty Dumptys approach to language in debate.
It would be nice to keep to actual facts.
Like, ohh, how many times Johnson lied today.
I gotta say I agree with rayban on this, if corbyn wasn’t authoritarian he’d have stepped aside to allow a more moderate, less contraversial leader to replace himself for the good of the labour party and ultimately the good of the people he represents.
Don't worry, when Corbyn goes we'll get another momentum lunatic for people like Ash Sarkar to fawn over.
Hey I'm no fan of the tories!
I might even vote Labour for tactical purposes.
But corbyn is a dead duck as leaders go. He's the wrong person for the job.
He's inflexible and stoic, fair enough, I appreciate the honesty.
But he's also not capable despite insisting his way is the only way.
How is that not authoritarianism?
Literally the only thing he's got over the tories is that he's not a lying sack of shit, it doesn't make him a good or wise leader.
He won’t step down from leader for the good of the country on the basis that he thinks he’s the best, and make way for a more moderate left /Liberal leader, despite it damaging the Labour Party.
That’s authoritarian.
Doing the job he was twice elected to do? It's outrageous.
Here is a basic starter in politics Rayban so you can understand some of these terms you like to throw about. It might help you understand a little more about the differnces between social democracy and socialism for a start.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/27852047-politics-from-a-to-z
Here is a basic starter in politics Rayban so you can understand some of these terms you like to throw about. It might help you understand a little more about the differnces between social democracy and socialism for a start.
I understand the difference, you don't appear to - because you are conflating Corbynism with the Nordic model. When I stated originally, that the Swedish countries were not socialist, I was right.
Why did you conflate the two then? the dunning Kruger is strong in you
Bye bye. Its a waste of time debating with you
Because I didn't TJ
Because they aren’t capital “S” socialist by Corbyns standards and haven’t been since the reforms well over 20 years ago. They are neoliberal states with a somewhat strong welfare model, that’s it.
Where there, do I call them socialist - or conflate the current Nordic model with socialism?
Bye bye. Its a waste of time debating with you
Coming from the man putting words into peoples mouths.
How is that not authoritarianism?
Because thats not what the word means. It really isnt difficult.
Doing the job he was twice elected to do? It’s outrageous.
Might seem reasonable if you are hard core Labour, I suspect most floating voters, as I do, as in the wider electorate see him as a bit of a fantasist.
I find it fascinating that both the BBC and The Guardian are now fact checking Johnson in real time and outing his lies as lies.
Never seen this before in UK politics that a politician has such a reputation for lying that everything he says is fact checked like this
Its really not going well for the tories is it.
Well James Brokenshire obviously lost the CCHQ game of soggy biscuit & had to go on newsnight tonight
Maitlis shredded him
Might seem reasonable if you are hard core Labour, I suspect most floating voters, as I do, as in the wider electorate see him as a bit of a fantasist.
It's reasonable to disagree with his politics, but suggesting that it's "authoritarian" to do what he was twice elected to do strips the word of any meaning.
Because thats not what the word means. It really isnt difficult.
No, it's not difficult.
Corbyn won't compromise or tell the people in straight and clear terms what he wants.
He could simply say he's for or against brexit, but he won't.
He's playing the power game, just like the tories.
If Labour had a more moderate leader that would work with other parties such as the libs, greens, SNP, plaid, we might get somewhere.
Instead he's expecting other parties to sign up to a blind deal with him.
the BBC
Its really not going well for the tories is it.
Well, Newsnight is busy interviewing Tories about how wonderful Johnson’s campaigning is so far, and how the mess of the last few days is all noise that won’t get in his way. Or perhaps I just heard what I didn’t want to hear.
It’s reasonable to disagree with his politics, but suggesting that it’s “authoritarian” to do what he was twice elected to do strips the word of any meaning.
If Jacob Rees Mogg was leader of the conservative party, and he selected Nick Griffin and Tommy Robinson as his closest advisers - what would be your thoughts on the matter?